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And the Hydran force may easily contain more than 100 fighters.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, March 04, 2022 - 10:16 am: Edit

Mark,

But why would the BPV be equal, necessarily? For a "Patrol Scenario" fought under the S.8 rules, yes, BPV should be equal. But in a strategic setting, lots of individual battles will be fought that aren't "even", even if the overall economics and fleet sizes are even. Too many "evens" in that sentence...

If I have a BATS that the enemy really wants to destroy, how much of my total fleet strength should I commit to its defense? Answer: If the Hydrans are that enemy, I would need to commit a lot more than if the Klingons (or even Seltorians) are the enemy. This is partly because the Hydrans can (in F&E terms) mass a lot of COMPOT in a battle force, but also because that COMPOT is (under SFB rules rather than F&E rules) much more efficient for assaulting a wedding cake.

A Z-YC fighter has a base BPV of 12, but that would be with slow drones. A more realistic "late war" figure when fast drones are general availability would be 18 - 12 for the fighter + 6 for upgrading 6 Type-I drones to fast. As mentioned in my 9:48 AM yesterday, A Klingon force on a dedicated wedding cake assault mission might choose to downgrade some or all of its drones to medium speed, to avoid their being destroyed by web impact. Okay - so 15 per fighter rather than 18. By comparison, the base cost of a Stinger-2 is only 10 BPV. But for the specific case of an assault on a Tholian base, those fusion beams and the gatling phaser are far superior to the Klingons drones.

But for neither the Klingons nor the Hydrans (nor anybody else) would I expect them, in a strategic setting, to attack the base with "an equal BPV force". The attacker will bring as much force as he believes he will need, or will not make the attack. And in my opinion the Hydrans can, against a Tholian wedding cake, reach that level at lower BPV (however it might compare to the Tholian defender's BPV) tham any other attacker except the Andros.

That makes them scary for the Tholians (or at least for me, YMMV).

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, March 04, 2022 - 03:36 pm: Edit

"But why would the BPV be equal, necessarily?"

Umm, America? Hi, this is the Warmasters. I'm afraid you're bringing far too high of a BPV into your battle with the Japanese here at the Marianas. I'm going to insist that you pare down your forces to make it a more even fight; it just wouldn't be fair to make this a total Turkey Shoot...

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, March 05, 2022 - 10:16 am: Edit

If You are talking a = BPV battle vs a Tholian defended position. With Webs such as a Wedding cake. Then the cost of the defenses is included and as such gives the attacker more ships.

First try a very simple web defense. That is a Battle/base station with a single band of web around it. A base Station (BS with basic modules is about the cost of a HC. The single layer of web at 0 strength a bit over 1 BPV it seems. Hover a 10 strength web would be 60 BPV. You could add in a mine field but for this thought say no mine field.

So the attacker gets a HC for that base and a DD or FF for the web. The Tholians then get a CA and DD defending. So the attacker gains anther CA and DD but could get three CA,s for the price. Depending on the race.

Objective blow up the base. So what force is better Hydran, Selt, Or other?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, March 05, 2022 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Gregory, I will try to address your points but I will be running around doing some other things today so the reply will be a series of short posts over time rather than one long, comprehensive one.

First, you're a bit off on BPV. The cost (per (G10.82) is .25 BPV per web strength point, so a six-hex globular web at strength 10 would have 60 web points but would cost 15 BPV, not 60.

But the more important point is that the (G10.82) costs are "wrong". Specifically, they are too low for "late period" battles. The energy cost to maintain or strengthen web varies over time, as Tholian technolgy recovers from their defeat in M81.

The standard (energy) cost is one point of energy per web hex, just to maintain it. So a full three-tier wedding cake would require 54 points of energy per turn just to maintain it. But when the Y160 improvement goes into effect, the energy cost drops to ²/₃ per hex so the wedding cake only requires 36 points to maintain, not 54. The exact same Tholian defense now has 18 more points of power to play with (typically this will be two more for the base and 16 more for the ships, since the base genrally maintains the innermost ring), which makes the defense quite significantly tougher. Not only do the Tholian ships fight better in their own right, they last longer and therefore give the base's phaser-IVs more turns of fire. The Tholians get a similar (though less dramatic) boost in defensive ability when the Y175 improvements go into efect and the entire wedding cake can be maintained for only 27 points of energy per turn.

I once proposed that because late war Tholian defenses are intrinsically stronger (due to the reduced power cost for maintaining and reinforcing web), the (G10.82) BPV costs should be changed to .4 BPV per at-start web strength point after the Y160 upgrade, and .5 BPV per strength point after the Y175 upgrade. But that proposal never went anywhere at the time.

More comments later this afternoon, but...

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So the attacker gets a HC for that base...

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, March 05, 2022 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Oops!

I mistakenly overestimated the ability of Seltorian X-ships to take down web. In my 12:27 PM post from 02 March, I stated

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But a Seltorian X-ship does gain one advantage (and arguably a second one) allowing it to break web faster than a standard-tech ship of the same size. X-ships can gain a -1 DRM if they have more ECCM than the target has ECM. I can find nothing in the rules that prevents using this against web. So in general a Selt CAX will be firing its web web breakers at -1 comapred to the CA...

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So the attacker gets a HC for that base...

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By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, March 05, 2022 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Soory I was not thinking. A HC was ment to be CA... sigh.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 06, 2022 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Well... crud. I got distracted and didn't get around to posting anything today. Tomorrow, then.

Okay, "HC" is really "CA". Got it. But if I understand Gregory's suggestion correctly, it doesn't really work for the Hydrans. I think he is suggesting looking at a Tholian BS with a single six-hex, strength-10 globular web around it, supported by a CA and a DD, attacked by an approximately equaly-BPV enemy of two CA and one smaller ship (either destroyer or frigate - whichever fits the Tholian BPV better).

That's fine for most empires but not for the Hydrans. the cost of their fighters means their force will probably be a Ranger plus one smaller ship (maybe a Lancer, maybe a Horseman) which would more closely match the BPV of the Tholian defense, or af a three-ship attacking force from most other empires.

Gregory, please let me know if I have correctly understood your intended scenario.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, March 07, 2022 - 06:53 pm: Edit

sounds about right I was just guessing at BPV. Was thinking along the lines as small battle. Then mover upward to a larger. Trying to look at tactics

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 07, 2022 - 11:37 pm: Edit

One problem with the single six-hex globular web scenario is that it doesn't fully capture the nature of a Tholian base defense. As such, the superiority of the Hydrans over other empires is less pronounced. Attacking a full three-tier wedding cake requires the attacker (except for the Seltorians or Andromedans) to split his forces to cover all sides of the base. If the attacker concentrates his forces to the "north", the Tholian sends ships to the "south" side of the wedding cake to maintain the web. If the attacker tries to move around to the south to attack those ships, he has to go around the outside of the wedding cake. But the Tholian web-reinforcing ships can cut through the center of the wedding cake to stay away from the attacker. The attacker has no choice but to divide his forces to cover all sides. This really plays to one of the strengths of the Hydrans, as they can field a very large number of units that have a lot of short-range firepower for their BPV. Othe empires can also use fighters, of course, to gain numbers of units. But no one can deploy as many as the Hydrans can. Moreover those fighters that are dependent on seeking weapons for much of their combat power are not cost-effective against web, compared to Hydrans. A Klingon Z-YC is more expensive than a Hydran Stinger-2 but a lot of that cost is due to their excellent drone capability - extremely useful in open space, much less so attacking a wedding cake.

With only a single web strand, this dynamic, so critical to a "real" wedding cake defense, is lost. The attackers can concentrate all their forces on one side as they move in to assault the base. Nevertheless, even a single-strand defense does demonstrate one important capability of the web - preemptive fire. I will look at that effect in my next post (tomorrow - I'm really doing a lousy job of getting these posted in a timely manner).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 09, 2022 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Did I say tomorrow? I... uhh meant day after tomorrow.

Even a single six-hex globular web around a Tholian base provides an important benefit. It enables the Tholian to get off a point blank "first shot" against most attackers and any weapons destroyed by that first shot will not be available to engage the base. Unless the web is weak and the attacker has seeking weapons fast enough to get through it, the attacker must fly into the web itself, The Tholian base, even if it has no supporting ships, PFs, or fighters, opens fire with its phaser-4s and phaser-3s, and the phaser-3s of any admin shuttles it has launched, at range-2, just before the ship hits the web.

Even a humble Tholian base station has seven phaser-4s. Assuming the attacker has timed his attack correctly, according to Tholian base rotation, the Tholian can still fire five phaser-4s into the attacker at two hexes. This comes to approximately 91 damage. It will also have four phaser-3s in arc. And if it has launched its admin shuttles in time, that's another 2 phaser-3s. So we can add about 18 more points of damage to the 91 from the phaser-4s. And any weapons killed by this almost 120 point barrage (assuming it doesn't vaporize the attacker outright) don't fire at the Tholian when the attacker does reach the web. So even that humble Tholian base station without ships, fighters, or PFs - but with a six-hex globular web - can be a daunting prospect to attack.

Did I mention that the Tholian still has two more phaser-4s and another phaser-3, which, if they haven't been destroyed, will soon rotate into arc?

In my next post I will get to Vandar's (fewer letters than typing "Gregory Flusche" each time) suggested scenario. I will attempt to show that the Tholian, under his stated conditions, has a pretty decent chance of the base surviving against the Seltorians (or, for that matter, most of the Alpha empires) but effectively zero chance of surviving against the Hydrans.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 09, 2022 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Okay. After numerous delays, I'm finally getting to Vandar's scenario, first described in his 10:16 AM post from 5 March.

What BPV level are we talking about for the Tholians? Since the Seltorians don't even arrive in our galaxy until Y182, we'll assume the Base Station has the Y170 and Y175 refits, but no hanger or PF modules since those don't fit his stated scenario. So we're starting at 148 BPV. A six-hex, strength-10 globular web adds 15 more BPV. The Tholian CA is 128 and the DD is 80. That gives a target value for the attacking force of approximately 371 BPV.

First, the Seltorians:

Two CAs would have a BPV of 284. A Seltorian DD is 95. That gives a total of 379, which is pretty close to our target, so we'll use that as our Seltorian attacker. (We could also use three Seltorian CLs at 381 total. The three-CL force has one more web breaker, one more phaser-1, one fewer particle cannon than the 2xCA+DD force. Their shields are weaker than the CA but stronger than the DD. My gut feeling is that the 2xCA+DD force is slightly better in this scenario but that the difference is negligible.)

The Tholian will try to "pull so many of the Seltorian's teeth" preemptively that the Seltorians won't have enough left to kill the BS by the time they reach the web. Can they do it? Well... maybe. But first we need to consider whether the Seltorians can bring the web down with their web breakers, obviating the necessity of actually crashing the web.

A Tholian ship can reinforce a web with four points of power per impulse so between the base, the CA, and the DD, they can add 12 points of power per impulse. But per G10.322, in Y175 and after, this counts double - effectively 24 points of power. This is enough to strengthen a six-hex web by four strength points per impulse. The BS and DD can't do this for many impulses if they have to arm the phasers as well. If the phasers are already armed at scenario's start, they are in better shape for powering the web. The CA can do this for several impulses in any case. If the Seltorians fire at three hexes from the web (the closest they can come to it and still be outside "point blank" range for the phaser-4s), they could take the web down about 11 strength points with 5 WB from the 2xCA+DD, or about 13 points with 6 WB from the 3xCL. But unless the Seltorians started the scenario at an absurdly close range, the Tholians have almost certainly powered the web up to 14 or beyond. Conclusion: in the stated scenario it is not feasible for the Seltorians to take the web down with their web breakers. They will have to crash the web.

More tomorrow... I hope it's tomorrow but the way I've been going, one never knows...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 11:36 am: Edit

Okay, I give up on saying I'll post "tomorrow" since my record in meeting that claim has been... not good. From now on, please read all references to "tomorrow" (if I slip up and use that word) as "some point in the future - if I don't forget".

I also seem to have lost my skill at basic arithmetic. In my 12:43 PM post on 09 March, I characterized the Base Station's preemptive fire, just before the attackers reach the web, as an "almost 120 point barrage". By my own numbers, that should be "almost 110 point barrage". With these egregious errors acknowledged, let's continue.

In my 10:28 PM post from 09 March, I argued that in Vandar's specified scenario, the Tholians can probably strengthen the web enough to prevent the Seltorians from taking the web down with their web breakers, at least on the first turn, so they will have to crash the web (just as the Hydrans (or Klingons or Feds) would have to do). If the Selts try to take the web down with web breakers over multiple turns, they will also endure multiple turns of close range phaser-4 fire, plus phaser-1 fire from the Tholian CA and DD. Their best chance of killing the base (Vandar's stated victory condition) is to crash into the web on turn one. So, can the Tholians pull enough Seltorian teeth (do Seltorians have teeth?) preemptively so that the base will survive?

I believe the odds are that the Tholians can. In addition to the approximately ahem... 110 points from the base and its shuttlecraft, they will also receive, preemptively, about 48 points of damage from the CA and DD, plus additional range-2 phaser-3 damage from the DD and however many of the ships' shuttlecraft they can launch in time. The question of the CA's phaser-3s is more complicated due to the arcs, and how the Selts approach the base. I will address that in a subsequent post looking at some specific tactics I think both sides may attempt. But suffice it to say that the Selts will probably eat at least (barring horrid Tholian dice) about 160-170 points of damage before any of their own weapons get a chance to fire. This would more-than-vaporize any one Selt ship but the explosion would not be enough, by itself, to seriously damage the reamining two Selts and if they both hit the same shield of the Base Station at range-1, they will kill the base. But split between the one Selt CA and one Selt DD, this damage probably leaves both ships almost weaponless and the remaining CA, centerlining the Base Station from one hex, will cripple but not kill the base in a single turn. Before the Selt can fire again, the remaining two phaser-4s on the base will have rotated into arc, and the CA will be hit by them plus point blank overloaded disruptors from the DD and CA.

Conclusion: this battle probably ends with all three Seltorina ships lost, for the base being crippled, but surviving. But we haven't addressed EW yet, nor more imaginative tactics that both sides might use. I will comment on that tomorr... uhhh... at "some point in the future - if I don't forget".

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Not questioning your logic or arithmetic, but doesn't it seem strange that the Seltorians have to crash the web? The only empire in the game with a specialized weapon to take down a web and they have to crash the web like everyone else? In theory, it shouldn't be the Hydrans the Tholians fear the most (due to their ability to field a lot of fighters) rather it should be the Seltorians because of their Web Breaker tech.

Your conclusion about the Selts having to crash the web leads me to these thoughts:

1) There is a problem in the Web Breaker Design, perhaps in the Range, the Energy, or the Rate at which it reduces Web.

2) There is a problem with Energy Cost to Maintain the Web. Per your Statement:

"A Tholian ship can reinforce a web with four points of power per impulse so between the base, the CA, and the DD, they can add 12 points of power per impulse. But per G10.322, in Y175 and after, this counts double - effectively 24 points of power. This is enough to strengthen a six-hex web by four strength points per impulse."

So perhaps this is Too Much? Given the amount of years the Tholian Web has been tested and retested, I doubt the issue lies with the Web. But that specific rule, G10.322, may be questionable...

3) There is a problem with the Scenario. Again, given the length of time this Scenario has existed and been played, I doubt it. And there doesn't seem to be an issue with empires other than the Selts

4) There is some flaw in your logic that leads to the conclusion that the best strategy for the Selts is to crash the web (so they don't undergo constant Phaser fire). I'm not sure what the flaw is, because it all sounds right, but maybe there is something we're overlooking...

5) The analysis here will apply across the board to other Seltorian vs Tholian Base Situations. How do the Selts handle these situations in general? Does every Selt Commander know before the battle even begins that the Best Tactic for their side is to simply crash the web? If this is true, then of what use is their Web Breaker device? Why even have it if it is not preferable to use in a situation such as this?

6) The Selts can trade in all their ships in order to field a single HC, which can easily crush the Tholian Base and all Tholian Ships in the vicinity

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 02:25 pm: Edit

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Does every Selt Commander know before the battle even begins that the Best Tactic for their side is to simply crash the web?

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Norman,

A couple of thoughts on your comments.

The scenario - I am responding to the specific scenario that Vandar suggested but it is an artificial one for the purposes of starting the analysis. Note the Tholians here only have one ring of web, which makes for a very different situation than a full-up three three tier wedding cake. Note that we are not talking about a published, play-tested scenario but a specific scenario for analytical purposes. If the Selts were realy attacking a Tholian web, they wouldn't worry about "equal BPV" They would bring enough force to get the job done, meaning a lot more web breakers.

Energy cost to maintain web - note that in my 1:00 PM post from 05 March, I proposed (actually I had first proposed it years ago) that the BPV cost for at-start web increase in Y160 and Y175, allowing a larger attack force. I think that is a better solution than fiddling with G10.322 at this point. But I also think that however you handle it, web is always going to be problematic. It scales in very "non-linear" ways.

"Problem with the Selts" - note that I started this discussion specifying that I was looking at the situation in this galaxy rather than M81. And I maintain that it's much harder for the Selts to break a wedding cake in this galaxy due to X-ships and PFs. A Selt X-ship gains no inherent improvements to the web breaker that are relevant to breaking globular web. But a Tholian X-ship gains extra power to counter those web casters. And Tholian PFs can carry web generators but Seltorian PFs cannot carry web breakers. So, yeah, I think the Seltorians have a tech problem in Alpha. If they were fully established in this galaxy, they might be able to overcome it with superior economic resources. As far as technology goes, changing the rules to allow Selt PFs to carry a web breaker (one web breaker replacing the particle cannon and a phaser-1, since judging from the SSDs of Selt ships, it seems to be a fairly bulky piece of equipment) would change things a lot. The downside for the Selts would be that those PFs would be much less suitable for open space combat. They would "anti-wedding cake" speciality units but would be cut to pieces if caught in space by a Tholian PF flotilla. The Selts would have to be careful how they deployed them.

More later...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Previous post has been edited since initial posting.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Thanks for the responses. It makes more sense now.

I agree that X-Tech changes the game.

Having the Seltorians being functionally deficient in Alpha and more superior in M81 make sense.

As for the 100-150 years difference, it does make you wonder what exactly happened in terms of Tactics, Battles, Tech Advancements, and Accomplishments between the Seltorians and the Tholians back in M81 (other than just brief historical overviews - I mean battle details). And whatever those answers are, is any of it (meaning specific tactics, like how to take down a Tholian Base surrounded by Web) still relevant "today" in Alpha?

My own personal opinion is that, X-Tech or not, the Web Breaker should be Effective at taking down Web. I understand the solution of simply "bringing more web breakers", but is that really the only viable solution? The Web Breaker is so Inefficient that you simply need A Lot of them?

When you have Seltorian BPV = Tholian BPV in a Base/Web Defense Scenario, the Web Breaker should be an Effective Offensive Device. The Selts shouldn't have to resort to crashing the Web...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Looked at the chart (on a lark)

At 0-1 hex range a Web Breaker will do an average of fifteen points aggregate web energy removal per shot. At JUST beyond overload range (9 hexes), it does 2.67; a little over one sixth the amount.

Given expected Tholian reinforcement, it seems worthwhile to crash the web.

One oddball thought (which can probably be shot full of holes VERY easily ) is, if there's a three-layer Wedding Cake, what about having some Seltorian ships (perhaps even quite a few of them) "Crash the Web" on the outer layer. Once there, they can fire out of it to the next layer of web with their Web Breakers AND use their fast firing particle cannons and phasers on Tholians trying to come out to reinforce the outermost layer.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 06:43 pm: Edit

One item is that (G10.62) give the Tholians a phaser advantage when firing adjacent to the web for no loss of firepower. Kiss if furepower happens only when there is a space between the Tholian and web covering the target ship (the strength of the web doesn't degrade the phaser, only the distance).

So the BS firing directly behind the web is at full strength, and so are the ships with their phasers.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 07:13 pm: Edit

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>When you have Seltorian BPV = Tholian BPV in a Base/Web Defense Scenario, the Web Breaker should be an Effective Offensive Device. The Selts shouldn't have to resort to crashing the Web...

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By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I was reading the above post. looked at my Seltorian SDDs Note that a CA has only 2 WBs. The DDs 1 the DN only has 3.

Then I looked at Neo-Tholian ships. The HC has 2 Web casters the LC only 1. There DN 3 Web casters.

So then looking at cast web strengths and Web breaker damage. The Cast web is 50 web points. even at range 1 a CAs two Web breakers will not drop the web. It will reduce it to stop breakdown. 3 Web Breakers at range 1 or maybe 2 could take down a cast web.

With the limits of web casters in fleet battles and the number of web breakers in a Seltorians battle group. I am thinking the Web breakers were primarily used to take down cast webs in open space battles. Not for attacking fixed locations.

However i looked at the Battle wagon SSD with 7 WB on each side and 2 FA. so 9 WB. will do at range 1 or 2 over 100 web points. With enough power to reinforce shields as it comes in. So they built just such ships for assaulting a Tholian base. als note they have Scout sensors as well so EW is in there favor. of course in this galaxy they could also have a scout to lend it ECM as well

Just some thinking is all

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 - 07:00 am: Edit

Well, I researched the Master Rulebook, C3, R4T, the Basic Set, and Advanced Missions to gain more insight into this subject.

Web Reinforcement is basically handled at a 1:1 (energy:added aggregate strength). Web deteriorates each turn, forcing the requirement of constant energy replenishment. There were two improvements to Web Technology over the years, one in Y160 and one in Y175. Under (G10.321) in Y160 the ratio was improved to 1:1.5. Under (G10.322) in Y175 the ratio was improved to 1:2. All of this makes sense, especially within the historical context of X-Technology, and I don't think is game-breaking in any way (from a Rule perspective, not a Battle/Scenario perspective).

The Web Breaker was developed as a function of the Shield Cracker (which was utilized by the Seltorians to Capture Ships by Knocking Down their Shields Only). For only 2 points of energy (What a Deal!), the Web Breaker fires a Phaser-like beam that can reduce a Web by up to 20 points. The Web Breaker appears to be most effective from Ranges 0-6 (automatic hits) and still effective up to Range 10 on a Low Roll (1-3).

This appears to be fine to me, especially given that it takes a Tholian Ship a 1:1 (energy:aggregate web reinforcement) ratio to just strengthen a web. Then along comes a Seltorian who, for only 2 points of power, can eliminate up to 20 strength points of web in a single shot. Note that the Web Breaker can be fired every turn. At close range (0-1), a single Web Breaker could eliminate 60 strength points of web over 3 turns on great rolls (1). At close range (0-1), a single Web Breaker could eliminate 48 strength points of web over 3 turns on mediocre rolls (3). This is still quite significant. At medium range (6), a single Web Breaker could eliminate 39 strength points of web over 3 turns on great rolls (1). At medium range (6), a single Web Breaker could eliminate 27 strength points of web over 3 turns on mediocre rolls (3). Just looking at these numbers, the Web Breaker seems like a great weapon, destroying huge chunks of web quickly every turn and only for 2 points of energy (per shot).

I was surprised to find that the Seltorian CA has 2 Web Breakers. So it can double the numbers in the analysis above (which was for only a Single Web Breaker). But on another point, I see now why the Particle Cannons are somewhat weak with their double shots. The Seltorian CA effectively has 6 Heavy Weapons compared to other CA's that usually only have 4 Heavy Weapons (like the Fed with 4 Photon Torpedoes). The 2 Web Breakers can be fired as Shield Crackers which can deliver an additional 8 points of damage (versus Shields only). That is the equivalent of an additional Standard Photon Torpedo. So basically, the Seltorian CA has 4 Particle Cannons in combat plus an additional "Standard Photon Torpedo." I like this Design, as it is fresh, creative, different, and functional. It may not actually work in combat (due to the split damage, the to-hit chances, firing arcs, etc.), but the Design, in my opinion, is outstanding (especially when you consider the Shield Cracker doubles for a Web Breaker in the game, giving it a Dual Game Purpose. Mind Boggling how this unique and excellent concept came into formation).

It should be noted that M81 did not use Seeking Weapons, even Suicide Shuttles. However, the Seltorians were given large numbers of Shuttles due to their large number of rapid reproducing warriors. In M81, the Tholians used only a few Ship Classes. The Tholians did not operate fighters or carriers, nor did they develop PF's. X-Tech was not developed in M81. Neither the Seltorians or Tholians can use in M81: fighters, MRS shuttles, scouts, PFTs, PFs, interceptors, web spinners, suicide shuttles, T-bombs, aegis (in any form), carriers, escorts, snares, or WWs. The Tholians in M81 did not evolve their tech for hundreds of years due to a lack of threat. All this info comes from C3. There are clear differences between the Selts/Tholians in the Milky Way and the Selts/Tholians in M81. In the Milky Way, the Selts did not gain Suicide Shuttles, T-Bombs, Warp Booster Packs, and Wild Weasels until Y184.

It was clearly explained in C3 that the Selts did not do well against plasma empires and Kzintis in Duels. They are terrible against the Andros. Because they were designed as Anti-Tholian only, they are poor Tournament Ships. Selts do well against empires that lack Single Impulse Crunch Power (meaning the Tholians).

Module R4T was born out of the Tholian Mastership Book due to a need to further define M81.

Which brings us back to the topic of Seltorians vs a Tholian BS with Web around it. I didn't find any such Scenario in C3 or R4T.

Assault on the Holdfast (SH6.0) describes a Klingon Attack on a Tholian BS. Base Defense (SG3.0) is a General Scenario. I couldn't find a specific Scenario that describes the Selts (or a mixed Klingon/Selt Force) attacking a Tholian BS. Maybe there is one in Captain's Log that I missed.

The Hypothetical Scenario described by Gregory is:

"If You are talking a = BPV battle vs a Tholian defended position. With Webs such as a Wedding cake. Then the cost of the defenses is included and as such gives the attacker more ships.
First try a very simple web defense. That is a Battle/base station with a single band of web around it. A base Station (BS with basic modules is about the cost of a HC. The single layer of web at 0 strength a bit over 1 BPV it seems. Hover a 10 strength web would be 60 BPV. You could add in a mine field but for this thought say no mine field.
So the attacker gets a HC for that base and a DD or FF for the web. The Tholians then get a CA and DD defending. So the attacker gains anther CA and DD but could get three CA,s for the price. Depending on the race.
Objective blow up the base. So what force is better Hydran, Selt, Or other?"

Alan is arguing that Selt/Tholian Battles need not necessarily be equal (in terms of BPV) when looked at through a Strategic Lens. He also suggests that BPV Costs for At Start Web Points should be Changed.

"But why would the BPV be equal, necessarily? For a "Patrol Scenario" fought under the S.8 rules, yes, BPV should be equal. But in a strategic setting, lots of individual battles will be fought that aren't "even", even if the overall economics and fleet sizes are even."

"If I have a BATS that the enemy really wants to destroy, how much of my total fleet strength should I commit to its defense? Answer: If the Hydrans are that enemy, I would need to commit a lot more than if the Klingons (or even Seltorians) are the enemy. This is partly because the Hydrans can (in F&E terms) mass a lot of COMPOT in a battle force, but also because that COMPOT is (under SFB rules rather than F&E rules) much more efficient for assaulting a wedding cake."

"But for neither the Klingons nor the Hydrans (nor anybody else) would I expect them, in a strategic setting, to attack the base with "an equal BPV force". The attacker will bring as much force as he believes he will need, or will not make the attack. And in my opinion the Hydrans can, against a Tholian wedding cake, reach that level at lower BPV (however it might compare to the Tholian defender's BPV) tham any other attacker except the Andros."

"I once proposed that because late war Tholian defenses are intrinsically stronger (due to the reduced power cost for maintaining and reinforcing web), the (G10.82) BPV costs should be changed to .4 BPV per at-start web strength point after the Y160 upgrade, and .5 BPV per strength point after the Y175 upgrade. But that proposal never went anywhere at the time."

Ok, so what were we talking about again? We were discussing the conclusion that it is better for the Selts to Crash the Web (like every other empire) rather than using their Web Breakers. For this discussion, I was imagining an Equal BPV Force (Selts vs Tholian BS) Type of Scenario. It is difficult to discuss a Hypothetical Scenario where the Selts just bring an Overwhelming (Unequal BPV) Force and crush the Tholian BS with their Huge Numbers.

Given all the Research Above, and the Amount of Hours Reading about it, I have come to the following Conclusions (which are only my own opinions):

1) Alan is right, by Y175, the Tholians receive Valuable X-Tech will aids their Base/Web Defense, while the Seltorians receive little. This issue is specific to the Milky Way. Therefore, the Tholians, after Y175 have a Significant Advantage in their Base/Web Defense.

2) Given #1, the Selt's Web Breaker is much Less Effective. Therefore, is Very Plausible that the Seltorian's Best Tactical Option is to Crash the Web like Other Empires. However, this is specifically Y175 and Later.

3) Hydrans may indeed be the Greatest Threat (other than the Andros) to a Y175+ Tholian Web/Base. This is due to their number of Fighters.

4) The Web Breaker was soundly designed and expertly so because of the Dual Shield Cracker function. This is both from a Game Playing Perspective and a Historical Perspective.

5) Things (Events/Battles/Tactics/Strategies, etc.) would certainly have functioned differently in M81 where tech, ships, devices, and weaponry were much simpler with stagnated development.

6) I agree with Alan that the BPV Cost for At Start Web Points should be changed for Y175. But this could affect other areas. Everything (in total) must be carefully examined. This decision (fortunately) is up to the PTB, not me or Alan.

7) Seltorian Ships (and their Web Breakers) are designed fine as-is. They were purposely created as "Anti-Tholians" and have great difficulty in other situations.

8) Alan knows what he is talking about! I have always considered him the "Tholian Expert." But this Research and Discussion was a Necessary Process in order to Confirm Certain Things.

I feel better knowing that the issue lies not with the Seltorian Web Breaker, the Design of Seltorian Ships, or the Tholian Web (and its associated Energy Costs), but with the Advancements that came with Y175. That makes sense to me. And now, so does the Selts having to Crash the Web instead of using their Web Breakers, due to those Y175 Technological Advancements.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Norman, several comments:

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by Y175, the Tholians receive Valuable X-Tech will aids their Base/Web Defense

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Ok, so what were we talking about again?

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Alan knows what he is talking about! I have always considered him the "Tholian Expert."

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By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 - 08:07 pm: Edit

>> a lot of them have never fought a full wedding cake assault

My group did a wedding cake assault way back in the day. An absolutely fascinating part of SFB that I think is super cool, but we all vowed to never do it again! Once was enough, particularly for the Klingons (who got absolutely destroyed).

--Mike