Archive through September 25, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Rules Questions:
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Archive through September 25, 2022
The number they can control at one time is not necessarily the number they can launch during one turn.
For the discussion on control channels, I think these are all the applicable rules.
(F3.2) CONTROL RATING
Each unit has a specified number of “control channels” to be used in guiding seeking weapons. Each channel can control one weapon at a time.
(F3.22) FIGHTERS AND SHUTTLES: Fighters can control their own seeking weapons (i.e., those they launched) or transfer (F3.5) this control to another unit. The launch and control rates of fighters may differ; see also (J4.24) and (J4.25).
(F3.221) Fighters can control (and transfer control of) their type-VI drones. These can be released to guide themselves.
(F3.222) A two-seat fighter (including an EWF) (J4.43) can control up to twelve seeking weapons launched by other fighters of its own squadron (J4.46), but no other fighter can control weapons that it did not launch. [Exception: (J10.44).] MRS shuttles can control six seeking weapons (J8.34). The control of seeking weapons does not diminish the EW capabilities of an MRS or EWF.
(F3.223) SWACS (J9.12) use one (not both) of their scout channels to control seeking weapons.
(F3.224) Administrative, minesweeping, heavy transport, ground assault, and other non-combat shuttles cannot control seeking weapons.
(F3.531) Voluntary transfer of control takes place during the Seeking Weapons Stage of the Impulse Activity Segment. It cannot take place on the impulse in which the seeking weapon itself was launched because of the order of procedures in the Sequence of Play, so a self-guiding seeking weapon would use a control channel during its first impulse.
(J4.221) TRANSFER OF CONTROL: A normal fighter cannot accept transfer (F3.5) of control of a seeking weapon from another unit. An EW fighter (R1.F7) or two-seat fighter (J4.43) can accept such transfers, but only from fighters in their own squadron (J4.46). MRS (J8.0) and SWAC (J9.0) shuttles also can accept transfers of control from any unit. Heavy fighters (J10.44) can accept transfers of control. Tholian and Hydran heavy fighters cannot control seeking weapons.
(J4.24) DRONE FIRING RATES
(J4.25) DRONE CONTROL: Any fighter can control a number of drones equal to the number of non-DFDs (non-dogfight drones, i.e., drones other than type-VI) in its nominal load exclusive of variants, if any (or two drones, whichever is greater). Note that type-VI drones must be guided until they achieve their own lock-on (FD5.12).
(J4.27) TYPE-F PLASMA TORPEDOES are subject to all of the above restrictions although, since standard fighters can only carry one and since plasma torpedoes are self-guiding, this is greatly simplified.
(J4.28) TYPE-D PLASMA TORPEDOES are generally treated as type-I drones for purposes of the above rules although, because they are self-guiding, the procedures are simplified. Type-D plasmas use a unique type of launch rail which cannot carry drones. Type-Ks are treated as type-Ds with the same total launch rate.
(J4.46) SQUADRON ORGANIZATION: Players may organize fighter squadrons before the scenario begins within these rules.
(J8.34) SEEKING WEAPON CONTROL: MRS shuttles can control up to six seeking weapons and can assume control of seeking weapons launched by other units. MRS shuttles can be part of a fighter squadron (J4.46) and control seeking weapons fired by that squadron (or other units).
(J10.44) SEEKING WEAPONS CONTROL: Heavy fighters can control up to six seeking weapons and can accept transfers of control
from any other units. See (J4.221).
(J14.233) Bombers use the same rules as heavy fighters (J10.4) for launching seeking weapons or firing direct-fire weapons, except that bombers can launch a maximum of three seeking weapons during any single turn.
Steve Coles May 20, 2022 - 11:53 m post - "The number they can control at one time is not necessarily the number they can launch during one turn."
Based on the above rules I believe this is the correct number of control channels based on the type of shuttle:
| Fighter Type | Rule(s) | Channels |
| Tholian and Hydran Heavy Bomber | J4.221 | 0 |
| Heavy Bomber | J14.233/J10.44 | 6 |
| ----------------------------------------- |
| Tholian and Hydran Medium Bomber | J4.221 | 0 |
| Medium Bomber | J14.233/J10.44 | 6 |
| ----------------------------------------- |
| Tholian and Hydran Heavy Fighter | J4.221 | 0 |
| Heavy Fighter | J10.44 | 6 |
| ----------------------------------------- |
| Two-Seat Fighter | F3.222/J4.221 | 12 |
| EW Fighter | F3.222/J4.221/R1.F7 | 12 |
| ----------------------------------------- |
| Drone Equipped Fighter | J4.24 | Varies based on drones carried |
| Non-Drone Equipped Fighter | Steve Cole Post | 1 |
| ----------------------------------------- |
| MRS Shuttles | J8.34 | 6 |
| SWAC | F3.223/J9.12 | 6 + 6 (one Scout function channel) |
| Shuttles | F3.224 | 0 |
To add to the control question, if a fighter does not have any seeking weapons, is there a minimum number of control channels or is it zero?
Ken, the way *I* read it is:
Under [(F3.22) FIGHTERS AND SHUTTLES: Fighters can control their own seeking weapons (i.e., those they launched) or transfer (F3.5) this control to another unit. The launch and control rates of fighters may differ; see also (J4.24) and (J4.25).], the maximum control channels for fighters that *do not have* seeking weapons will always be zero.
Also, under [(J4.221) TRANSFER OF CONTROL: A normal fighter cannot accept transfer (F3.5) of control of a seeking weapon from another unit. An EW fighter (R1.F7) or two-seat fighter (J4.43) can accept such transfers, but only from fighters in their own squadron (J4.46). MRS (J8.0) and SWAC (J9.0) shuttles also can accept transfers of control from any unit. Heavy fighters (J10.44) can accept transfers of control. Tholian and Hydran heavy fighters cannot control seeking weapons.], fighters cannot control any seeking weapon that it did not launch. It also spells it out specifically for Tholian and Hydrans.
THEREFORE, their control capability is ZERO and they cannot accept any transfers. Pretty cut and dry to me.
Looking for confirmation that fighters (not shuttles) with no seeking weapons have no control channels.
Based on the discussion around my Stellar Shadows submission for a Federation without drones, the intention is that fighters that do not have seeking weapons cannot control seeking weapons. The reason is because those fighters do not have the software and electronics required to do so. (The specific topic was that the drone-less Federation fighters could not be given to the Gorns and have plasmas added.)
On the rules you quoted, the last sentence of (J4.221) would seem to put the nail in it, despite any ambiguity of any other rules. It flatly states that Hydran and Tholian fighters cannot control drones. Why this is not explicitly stated somewhere in (F3.22) or somewhere in the other rules, I can't help you. And note that by "Tholian and Hydran" it does mean "anyone without seeking weapons on their fighters", e.g., this applies to the Vudar, too.
Also instructional in this regard is the Kzinti AS Assault Shuttle (R5.F1) which cannot control its own seeking weapons, as the Kzintis did not develop a drone control module for a shuttle other than their Multi-Role Shuttle until the AAS Advanced Assault Shuttle (R5.F2).
Ken, it is right there in (F3.22): "...the maximum control channels for fighters that do not have seeking weapons will always be zero."
Mike - my copy of the Captain's Master rulebook (Copyright © 2004, 2010, 2012) shows "(F3.22) FIGHTERS AND SHUTTLES: Fighters can control their own seeking weapons (i.e., those they launched) or transfer (F3.5) this control to another unit. The launch and control rates of fighters may differ; see also (J4.24) and (J4.25)."
It does not have that sentence nor and I find a variation of the that sentence. What is the reference for the (F3.22) you are using?
I'm at work and away from my book, but that would have come from the electronic MRB. I'll check later tonight when I get home.
Also Ken, it's a logical progression:
Fighters can control or transfer all seeking weapons they can launch. (F3.22)
Fighters cannot accept any transfers of control from other units. (J4.221)
Therefore it follows that IF a fighter cannot launch seeking weapons, AND cannot accept control from another unit, WHY would it have any seeking weapon control capability at all?
THIS is why I say that the control rating is ZERO.
QED
While I agree that it makes sense that a fighter with no seeking weapons would have zero control channels, I have been wrong about those types of things in the past.
Mike W - "(J4.221) would seem to put the nail in it, despite any ambiguity of any other rules. It flatly states that Hydran and Tholian fighters cannot control drones." -- This is specific to Hydran and Tholian, but not any other empire.
Mike D - where you able to find the reference for the (F3.22) rule?
I agree that (F3.22) would indicate that if a fighter had no seeking weapons, then it would have zero control channels, but then I look at heavy fighters (except Hydran and Tholian) which can control up to six seeking weapons regardless of the number of seeking weapons they can launch.
Just looking for confirmation that (F3.22) would be the governing rule for fighters, but not heavy fighters.
What is the YIS date for the C4B? Is it Y165 (the B-refit date)?
I have the C4B middle years dreadnought (R3.963) YIS to be Y122. See page 35 in module G2.
Ken, yes, the rule only specifies the Tholians and Hydrans. But that is because they were the only two empires it applied to when written. It would seem very bizarre to prohibit those two from controlling seeking weapons while still allowing, say, the Vudar to.
And, again, there should be something in (F3) covering this.
(F3.22) Fighters and Shuttles: Fighters can control their own seeking weapons (i.e., those they launched) or transfer (F3.5) this control to another unit. The launch and control rates of fighters may differ; see also (J4.24) and (J4.25).
Drone firing rates, (J4.242) Exceptions include, Heavy fighters
(J4.43) EW fighters retain the seeking weapon control ability of two seater fighters.
(J4.221) Transfer of control: Heavy fighters (J10.44) can accept transfers of control. Tholian and Hydran heavy fighters cannot control seeking weapons.
(J10.0) Heavy fighters, These heavy fighters operate within the same rules as fighters, with the exceptions noted here.
(J10.44) Seeking weapon control: Heavy fighters can control up to six seeking weapons and can accept transfer of control from any other units. See (J4.221).
the above rule quotes are from the Captain Edition 2005 edition, and the Module J Fighters 1991-1996.
I would think the Heavy fighter would need seeking weapons to use (J10.44) as noted in (J4.221) that Tholians and Hydrans cannot control seeking weapons.
and if the F3.22 rules has been updated to read: the maximum control channels for fighters that *do not have* seeking weapons will always be zero.
Wayne,
That is the issue, I have not found a definitive rule. I would think that F3.22 should be updated.
Ken Kazinski:
To what are you looking for a definitive rule?
If a fighter does not have any seeking weapons, is there a minimum number of control channels or is it zero?
(F3.22) is clear they can control their own seeking weapons, it does not specifically state they have control channels for all their seeking weapons. Meaning does a fighter with 2xPL-Fs have one control channel per PL-F? Or does that mean if they can only launch one per turn, they have a single control channel. Is it based on the number of seeking weapons carried or based on the number that can be launched per turn?
I don't want to make an assumption one way or the other.
I believe my post from Saturday, May 21, 2022 - 09:31 pm, covers all the applicable rules.
(F3.22) FIGHTERS AND SHUTTLES: Fighters can control their own seeking weapons (i.e., those they launched) or transfer (F3.5) this control to another unit. The launch and control rates of fighters may differ; see also (J4.24) and (J4.25).
(J4.24) covers drone firing rates and (J4.25) covers drone control.
I think there might need to be an addition to the (F3.22) series of rules.
(F3.227) Fighters with non-drone seeking weapons can control ...... If a fighter has no drones or seeking weapons ....
Or something like the above.
Question re Probe on the ISC DDL.
On the paper SSD, it shows the DDL as having no probe box on the 2016 Module C2 version.
Is this correct or a typo ?
Thanks.
Cheers
Frank
Prretty sure it's correct, Frank.
I don't have the SSD right in front of me, but IIRC, I noticed the same thing about a year ago. As I recall, there's no consumables probe track on it either, BUT their standard DD has both the probe box in the ship outline AND the consumables probe track.
My assumption at the time was that there were already probe launchers on the Gun Line, so there wasn't a "Need" for the DDL, which would never be the sole ship of a Gun Line (unless, of course, every single other Gun Line ship was blown to smithereens 
), but the need for additional systems to support the additional firepower of the ship left too little room for them to properly mount the system, so the ISC engineers didn't put one on.
This is, of course, an assumption on my part, so it may be COMPLETELY wrong; it's just something that makes sense to someone (me) who is almost complete NONsense...
Thanks Jeff,
I am asking because the SFBOL version of the ISC DDL does have a probe launcher and if it indeed does not have 1, we will have to correct it.
Cheers
Frank
Comparing the SSDs, it looks like the Probe was removed for two APR6s to power the G's (or the G's needed more room than the F's they replaced) ...
Stewart,
That was the conclusion of our discussion as well.
We did think it weird that the ISC DDL would not have a probe launcher even if it sacrificed it for an extra 'apr', thus our question.
Thanks.
Cheers
Frank
(R3.15) states "if the fighters are replaced with non-fighter shuttles to support ground assault operation" and in Annex 7G has a storage of 60 drones. Does the Klingon P-H5 retain the drone storage when configured for a ground assault mission?