Ginger, when gunboats (interceptors and especially PFs) first started appearing, the various empires faced a hard choice. They were very powerful attrition units - a PF flotilla carrying firepower greater than a heavy cruiser, but much cheaper and much, much faster to build. But the trade off is that they had crews of 20-30 each so casualties rates were horrendously high. Which means each empire either had to accept those losses of people or fall behind the tech curve in battle.

The Federation found consigning crews to essentially suicide missions to be morally indefensible, but also refused to accept the disadvantages of not using PFs - so while all the other empires started using PFs, the Federation went with their Third Way, which involved focusing on significantly increased deployment of F-111s (which had been available since Y177), CVBGs which merge two carrier groups together into one group (which counts as one less ship for command), the ability), the ability to field four squadrons of fighters in a battle force (with the fourth not counting for command if an independent squadron), and regularly carrying spare fighters in the cargo storage of their escorts.

Most of this shows up in F&E - see rule (502.9) if you have the game - but is reflected in SFB via (S8.283) for CVBGs and (S8.327) for the increased fighter limits.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Thanks! I don't have F&E so the S8 references are greatly appreciated.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 04:28 pm: Edit

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Quote:

On a side note: one of the alternate timelines offered in SFB Module R4J is for the "Reflection Universe" - in which the UFP's more militaristic counterpart, the Federal Imperium, is permitted to take INTs and PFs (but not F-111s).

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vs 6 Hydran PFs you probably can bring 6A20 and 12 F14. Which whould do the deal

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By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 04:44 pm: Edit

And all the Ph-G from the Hydran units do a pretty good job of shooting down the Fed drones...

--Mike

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 04:57 pm: Edit

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Quote:

And all the Ph-G from the Hydran units do a pretty good job of shooting down the Fed drones...

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By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Well Historically the Hydrans never fought the FEDS. However, in simulators they can fight.

If your drones use up his Gats. Then You launch your dog fight drones. Then it is Your gats vs fusion beams. Also when PFs are out i think You get speed 32 drones?

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 07:16 pm: Edit

It is a non-historical matchup so it may be a little funky. The Hydrans and Feds are more balanced to fight against the Coalition than each other.

For the Fed fighter force, I'd take a close look at your special drone supplies (like MW) and drone firing rates. Plan out how you can create turns of maximum drone power to try and saturate and/or overload the Hydran drone defenses and try to get some hits. And, as Gregory suggests, even if you don't get drone hits you may be able to absorb so much of the Hydran gatling fire that there are opportunities to close and use direct fire weapons to get some kills.

I'd also be careful about having unsuccessful drone attacks that eat up a lot of your better drones without really hurting the Hydrans. The gatlings recharge on the next turn while the drone armed fighters have a much longer return/reload/relaunch/fire cycle time. Gatlings also have infinite ammunition while drone supplies (particularly special ones) are limited. So a well planned first attack is probably your best chance of overall success.

If the calculated numbers don't look good and you don't have enough drone firepower then it might just be an unfavorable matchup. IMHO, the Hydrans are largely built around the idea of smaller, outnumbered Hydran fleets bravely fighting against superior Coalition numbers using their superior technology. When the Hydrans are 1:1 their superior technology can dominate. The only reason they didn't win the GW and dominate the galaxy is due to a small fleet, small economy and very limited ship construction rates.

--Mike

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 12:54 am: Edit

Note that Hellbores have pretty good accuracy and damage against fighters out to range 15.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 04:12 am: Edit

You can't take Howlers unless they appear in a scenario, which they never have that I recall. They're that rare.

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 08:40 am: Edit

I probably missed something important. But am a little confused by that statement, Richard.

If you can't take them outside a scenario and they don't appear in any scenario, it sounds like you're saying that Howlers essentially don't exist?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 09:31 am: Edit

Richard is correct. I believe it's implied players can *always* house-rule anything they want in their games - which is reflected in the rule itself:

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Quote:

(R9.PF3) HOWLER PF (HOW): A modified Harrier with gatling
phasers replacing the fusion beams. While more effective in c1oserange
combat, the Howler was produced in very limited.numbers,
possibly indicating the gatling phasers were too expensive for an
attrition unit. Less than 10% of all Hydran PF production was
Howlers, and there would never be more than two flotillas of Howlers
(one on the Lyran front, the other on the Klingon front) at any given
time. A few served in Harrier flotillas. Due to their limited availability,
they can be used only in a published scenario or with permission of
the opponent.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 09:33 am: Edit

Ginger,

Regarding your question from a couple of days ago about countering Hydran PFs with the Feds; are you playing with the EW rules and are you playing fixed map or floating map? Both of those can have significant implications, but here are some things you can try.

Oblique attacks with proximity photons: The only weapons on the Hydran PFs that range further than 10 hexes are the phasers. That's the case, in fact, with almost all attrition unit-mounted direct fire heavy weapons. The fusion beams on Stinger-Xs range to 12 if "double shotted", but that doesn't apply to the Hydran PFs. And the other attrition unit direct fire heavy weaponwith 12 hex range is... the photon torpedo (on some Fed and Tholian fighters (and bombers) and some Orion PFs). You'll need units that can fight at high speeds to pull this off, such as A-20FMs or NCLs. And it may be impossible on a fixed map. But the general idea would be approach at an angle with proximity-fused photon torpedoes (X-ships might be better of with standard fuses since they have the possibility of gaining a -1 DRM). If possible, maneuver so as to reach range 12 with the target directly off the #2 or #6 shield (or the equivalent hex row for the A-20FMs), fire, and then turn off, preventing the Hydran PFs from getting a shot with anything except phasers. This will not be easy against something as fast and maneuverable as a PF, but is worth trying.

Mines / T-bombs: This can be particularly effective if using hidden mine placement. Mines laid by transporter will be visible in any case but mines dropped out the shuttle bay will not be placed on the map and the Hydran won't necessarily know which hexes are mined. Even a ship maneuvering to look like it might be laying T-bombs could induce the Hydran to try to go around hexes that might be mined, rather than charging straight in. This will augment the effectiveness of the range-12 oblique attack discussed above. And never forget that your F-111s (and some other units) can carry T-bombs in the weapons bay.

X-ships: This is you single best counter. Field as many X-ships as the campign-specific rules will allow.

None of these will be necessarily easy to pull off and will depend on the rules in use and the forces present in a specific battle. But except for his hellbore-armed ships, the Feds generally have the edge at longer ranges. If you do have to close, do it behind a massive drone range (consider the use of remote-controlled fighters for this) to soak up as much gatling phaser fire as possible.


The above are, at any rate, how I would approach this. But I should specify I play the Feds less frequently than I do some other empires, especially the Tholians.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 09:37 am: Edit

Daniel,

Fundamentally, he is saying that Howlers can only be used in published scenarios that include them. Of which there apparently aren't any.

The result of this is that you cannot unilaterally include Howlers in your force. You may, of course, always bring them if your opponent agrees. For a pick-up, one-off game, that would be a specific agreement for that game. For a campaign, that can include overall agreement around production rules.

Ginger,

As for how to fight that many drones, you have two main strategies. (Of which I cannot promise either will work for your combination of forces.)
1) Use your drones to mop up as much phaser fire as possible and rely on your photons and phasers to score the damage you need.
2) Maximize the number of drones in your waves so that you can overwhelm his defenses and still score hits.

Either way you'll need to get creative in using MW drones, scatter packs, and copious amounts of dogfight drones. Anything that will drive up your drone count (but stay within your control limits).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 09:55 am: Edit

One other point about drones; consider the use of the "18/8" internally armored Type-IV drone. External armor will slow the drone down, making it much less effective against very fast, maneuverable units (like... PFs). But a speed 32 Type-IV with internal armor still has an 18 point warhead (more than a PF can handle unless it is spending a lot of its power "bricking" the shields) while taking 8 points to kill. Note that a standard Type-IV or an internally armored Type-I only takes six points to kill and at range-1 he is guaranteed to do that much with two phaser-3 pulses (assuming no ECM shift). So each gatling phaser could kill two incoming drones each turn (assuming range-1 shots and no ECM shift). But against the "18/8", that last second two-pulses fron the gatling is not guaranteed to kill the drone. So the Hydran (who may not even know what the drone is, if the number of incoming drones exceeds the capabilties to examine them all by labs) would either have to commit three pulses, or risk the drone getting through.

The above will be less effective, the more Aegis units (including X-ships) the Hydran has.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Note that hidden mine placement is an optional rule; your opponent has to agree to let you use it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Which is why I said "This can be particularly effective if using hidden mine placement."

(Emphasis added.)


Ther are lots of rules concerning which the players will have to agree, even to have a game. Fixed versus floating map is a huge example.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Don't know exactly what's planned for the upcoming campaign, but it's my understanding that, historically, the Federation economy was such that, once it got rolling with wartime production, they were producing warships at a pretty hefty rate.

Again, in my understanding of Canon SFU history, the Klingons and Lyrans use of gunboats was a way for them to redress the balance and keep themselves from getting overwhelmed by Alliance (Federation) industry.

Perhaps this might be a potential angle to take? Feds responding to Hydran Gunboats with larger numbers of NCL and DW?

(At least larger enough to balance the BPVs? )

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I was bored so dug out my FED fighter charts.

First the CVA seems to be the only carrier with F14s other ships use the F18s.

Stinger 2s cost 10 BPV.
F14 11 BPV or f14A 13 BPV or F14B 15BPV no drone
F18 8 BPV or F18B 9BPV no drone costs.

I am not great with drone load outs at all.

The FEDS will have speed 20 but if any of the B are A could have speed 32 and special drones. plus, booster packs. (not even thinking about Mega here)


So the Feds fighters can cost almost twice a Hydran? Or 3ST2 vs 2 F14A/F14B

Not sure about costs.

However 2 multi warhead 6submantions speed 32 and 2 type 1 speed 32. 8 drones inbound. With 2 dogfight drones left on fighter.

2 stingers can take out 8 drones... but a few bad rolls and they die. There are of course ways to maneuver around this and Booster packs to outrun the drones. If one fighter lives then it is 2 fus vs 2 ph3 or a Gat.

I think the FED fighters can over whelm the drone defence of the Hydran stingers. Now if they stay close to the ships for support not so sure. Just my thoughts

We are still not adding in the carriers and what not.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Vandar:

Fed BCV and BCS (based on Fed Battlecruiser) also use F-14s.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 03:49 pm: Edit

F-101...Thoughts? I don't have the CL it's in so can't comkare it beyond what's on the master fighter chart.

Comparison would need to also include comparing the groups allowed to carry them.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 04:18 pm: Edit

My .02 quatloos worth: Better (comparing squadron versus squadron) than F-18 except that you can include one oversized F-18 squadron in the battle force... 24 F-18s only counting as one squadron against the limit.

F-101 not generally as good (again, squadron versus squadron) as F-14, F-15, F-111.

A-20F: comparison not very meaningful. They are intended for different roles and fight in different ways.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 04:37 pm: Edit

F-101 is a favorite of mine for stories I fail at writing.

Against Stingers, its drone load-out and firing rate are inadequate.

HOWEVER, it has both a Phaser-2 and an ADD-6. Were it not for the fact that it's going to be outnumbered two to one* by Stingers, it can (in theory) be a decent weapon against them.

(* Uhh, make that more like five or even six to one. EEEEKK!! )

Agree with Alan that it's not as good in a squadron versus squadron as the F-14 or F-15 and is inferior in almost all respects to the F-111.

A-20F also has Phaser-2 and ADD-6. Also, like Stinger-2, has heavy weapons for assaulting enemy ships. It does have the advantage of its drones, which it can launch on the run in to its target to absorb fire which otherwise might be directed at the A-20.

My 0.02 Quatloos.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 06:43 pm: Edit

The F-101 is in CL#35. Quite frankly, all you need to know about it is given in the Master Fighter Chart. So, if you have that, you're good to go! OK, not entirely true. The chart has a mistake for the F-101B. The chart shows the F-101B having 6xI. That's not true. It has 4xI, 2xVI. (This mistake is also reflected in the F-101BM listing.) Other than that, the chart is correct.

The F-101 was intentionally designed to be inferior to the F-111, so if you have your choice, you're better off using the F-111. It's a better fighter and only costs 1 extra BPV over the F-101C. And available two years earlier, no less. Kinda a no-brainer, really.

Ignoring the whole "Fed CVA vs Hydran Lord Paladin" scenario, and pulling it back to "the Hydrans have a PFT with Harriers" concept, you're pretty much left with responding with a NVH with A-20Fs or F-111s. Note that if the A-20Fs aren't available (because of the year), then just go F-111s. It ain't great, but it's what ya got.

Do note that, unlike his PFT, you will be forced to bring escorts with your NVH, so there's that, too.

The only other thing I can think of, in a situation where he has basically just the PFT, is to answer with ships. While you only get "half credit" for killing them, he has to pay full combat BPV when making the squadron. That's 298 BPV for just the PF flotilla. You can buy three DWs for that. And you get more for his PDF and anything else that he takes. This obviously doesn't work if we are talking a full 10+ ship fleet with full attrition units.

Just some thoughts. I hope some of them, at least, helps you think things through.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 07:42 pm: Edit

It's a campaign. Economic costs for everything. So while my fighters aren't as expensive, neither are his PFs.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, October 27, 2022 - 01:17 am: Edit

Playing "Devil's Advocate..."

Drones have an economic cost as well.

What is the economic cost for fighters/drones in sufficient quantity to overwhelm the Hydran defenses against those weapons to sufficient degree to take out the Hydran ships which serve as home base for their relatively inexpensive fighters and gunboats?

By contrast, what is the economic cost for building/repairing ships able to long-range-photon-bombard the Hydran ships which serve as home base for their relatively inexpensive fighters and gunboats?