| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, November 01, 2022 - 10:21 am: Edit |
A friend and I started The Admiral's Game. I (the Federation) am the attacker. He is playing the Hydrans. The rules we're using:
Start
* Y178
* 6,000 points to buy fleets
* Carriers must have escorts and fighters as listed in their R section. Note that this is not necessarily what is listed on their SSD. See the master starship books for specifics.
* Fleets must be realistic. Use the fleets in The Admiral's Game as guides.
Base Assaults
* Attackers are at WS-III
* Defenders roll for weapon status
* Use a 4x4 fixed map simulated with one floating map with limits as below
* The base is in the bottom left to start.
* If any ship would cause the map to float when the base is already on the edge then that ship will be treated as disengaged. It is destroyed if it disengages in the wrong direction.
* Attackers start in any hex as close as 13 and as far as 26 hexes away.
* If the defenders are at WS-0 their fleet starts 2 map lengths away.
* If the defenders are at WS-I their fleet starts 1 map length away.
* If the defenders are at WS-II their fleet starts on the base at speed 0.
* If the defenders are at WS-III their fleet starts on the base at speed 10.
Turns
* 2 turns per year
* 800 points per turn to spend on new ships, fighters, PFs, etc.
* Unspent points carry over to the next turn
* No conjectural ships. R rules must be followed in terms of uniqueness, rarity, etc.
* An overhaul can convert a ship to another ship of the same hull type. For example a Ranger could be sent to overhaul and returned as a Dragoon.
* No minefields outside of those provided by the rules of The Admiral's Game. That is, if a base is attacked and not destroyed it gets a 100-point minefield.
* Carriers must have their standard fighters and escorts for the year. Note that this is not necessarily what is listed on their SSD. See the master starship books for specifics.
* No free replacement fighters or PFs, anything destroyed has to be rebuilt or lost.
Refits
* U1.4 is in effect. A ship can begin its overhaul the turn before a refit is available. For example, a refit available in Y179 can be done in turn 2. The ship in question would return to service in turn 3, which is the start of Y179.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, November 01, 2022 - 12:02 pm: Edit |
Defenders are not considered to be at war in a war zone on turn 1.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 06:35 pm: Edit |
The lesson from today's game was "don't bring a PAL and a DG to a fleet battle"
I was attacking a BATS with an almost full fleet of 10 ships. Some of those were a CVA carrier group. I started far away and dumped out fighters while overloading photons. He started making his way towards me but had to go slow at first. The first 5 turns were basically us jockeying for position. I wanted to get close to his ships but couldn't keep up and didn't want to get too close to the BATS. I was more interested in killing ships so didn't just rush station and crush it. He'd have disengaged and made me sad.
Turn 5 he splits his ships and starts circling around to pincer my scout. Long story short I centerline his PAL at range 7 with no shift because he was using his Ph-4s instead of sticking up ECM. The paladin popped. A few stingers escaped when he declared catastrophic damage. They hurled themselves into a barrage of ADDs including 2 ships with full aegis. They didn't make it.
The fighters from his base died to a hail of ADDs from my F-14s' starfish drones.
He circled his DG around thinking he could kill my scout while my fleet was far away. He could have except he didn't realize how scary my fighters are. I managed to get 12 F-14s and 6 A-20s to range 2. Their 18 gatlings, 6 phaser-2s, and 12 photons turned him into a puff of space dust in the cosmic breeze. That was despite having a shift of 2.
He did manage to take out one AUX Con box on a DD, though. So there's that.
| By Joseph Jackson (Bonneville) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 08:09 pm: Edit |
Sounds like your opponent will be spending some nights plotting some payback.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 10:47 pm: Edit |
The multi-warhead drone known as “Starfish” was developed by the Klingons in Y172 primarily to counter Hydran fighters.
Sounds like it worked!
--Mike
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 11:39 pm: Edit |
In the fighters' defense there were 28 starfish drones against 12 Stinger-Fs. If he'd had more on the board it wouldn't have gone so well. If they'd been stinger-2s several wouldn't have been crippled. These fighters came free with the base so they were Class I only.
Thankfully most of the 15 stinger-2s in the battle died in their bays. The ones who survived ejected from catastrophic damage and couldn't have fired at my ships for 32 impulses.
Then again, I wouldn't have launched the drones if the paladin hadn't popped. I needed them to take out fusion beams, not just gatlings. 24 fusions would have done a number on someone once I crossed into range 10.
| By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 08:48 am: Edit |
Outnumbered, out gunned and a bad Weapon Status made this easy for the Fed. It would have been better for the Hydran to make you "sad" and disengage.
Aren't you glad that the Hydrans gave their Fed friend gatling phaser technology?
I do not blame your friend for fighting. Afterall, how else will he gain experience than by playing the game.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 09:07 am: Edit |
He was WS-III for this battle. But yeah, he should have fled. It was definitely a good learning experience. There was another base he was going to try and defend with a few ships but thought better of it.
I don't remember if I mentioned this... We can't build size class 2 ships so the loss of the dreadnought was a big bit. In a couple of turns I'll have 4 CVA groups to his 2 Iron Dukes and one Paladin. He could refit his Paladin if he wanted, but carriers aren't as big of a deal for Hydrans. They're almost better off without them since they can field a ton of fighters and use bigger ships rather than escorts.
He did learn that hellbores are 3 power, not 2 and that fusions can't start off held at any weapon status. It didn't matter in this battle but he won't inadvertently spend too little power in the future, which is good for me.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 11:03 am: Edit |
I would not have fled, but I also would not have gotten greedy. The problem is fleets can do enormous damage, even at range 15.
Better to have stuck to longer range and picked off a few fighters as originally planned. That could have worked.
But it is what it is now!
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 11:12 am: Edit |
True. We have 800 points per turn so losses aren't as bad as they could be. A replacement f-14 is only 7 or 8 of those depending on the drone loadout. And I can do the same to stingers. If he puts them out I can starfish them. If he leaves them in the bay I can hopefully start some chain reactions going and destroy them there.
The next round of fights are in open space. His overall fleet is an even mix of fusions and hellbores. I'm curious to see how he divides them up for the upcoming open space battles.
He'll be in a much stronger position in a couple of turns when megafighters show up. I'll get them, too but they're a really sweet deal for stinger-2s. The added fusion charges give you a long range snipe and a close in nuke. I need to do as much damage as I can before then. I don't get full complements of fast drones until Y180 when he gets PFs and I have to start deciding between SF and MW.
My turn 4 spending is going to be a massive money sink for drone upgrades. :-(
| By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 08:53 pm: Edit |
Does your friend realize that the Hydran St-2 fighter only costs 5 EPV? One can use up the FTRS in a battle and replace them easily for the next battle.
I agree, megafighters are awesome! Speed 30 without booster packs! And lots of hit points. The St-TM heavy megafighter is worth looking at. Of course, the St-2M and St-HM combo is still the workhorse Hydran megafighters.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, November 14, 2022 - 10:28 pm: Edit |
IIRC the T is a heavy fighter, right? If so then it doesn't work with launch tubes. No Bueno.
I don't know if he's paying EPV or not. I assume so. I sure am.
| By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 07:49 am: Edit |
Yes. They launch the old-fashioned way via shuttle hanger bays (one every other impulse per bay). Well, as the teacher, one might ask.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 09:06 am: Edit |
There's a reason they didn't produce many of them. They're a nice fighter but the Hydrans love their tubes. And are they really as good as two separate stingers? You gain a hellbore charge and lose 2 fusions and a gatling for eac sginger-2 you replace. Or vice versa when replacing a stinger-H. Those gatlings are huge against drone races.
Plus it's easier to cripple one St-T vs 2 stinger-2 / -Hs.
The hellbore is definitely a nice addition. I guess it depends on the mission.
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 11:41 am: Edit |
Quick note on something I just learned. (S8.3283) limits megapack usage to 12 fighter-equivalents per side. So, theoretically, he can have 12 Stinger megafighters and you can have 12 F-14A megafighters.
However, (S8.3285) provides two exceptions. Conveniently, these apply to the Federation and Hydrans.
The Federation can double the number of megafighters by making sure the extras are F-111 megafighters. So, you can have 12 F-14AMs *and* 6 F-111Ms, or a full 12 F-111Ms.
Hydrans can double the number of megafighters as long as up to twelve come from a true carrier and the other twelve come from a hybrid carrier. (So that lost Paladin hurts even harder now.) However, if Hydrans are using a full 10+ ship fleet, they get two hybrid carrier exceptions, potentially allowing for up to 36 megafighters. That said, the Hydran hybrid ship exception appears to be ship-based, not fighter based. So, only fighters from one (or two) hybrid carriers get megafighters, not a full 12 (or 24) across all of the hybrid carriers. I admit that I could be mis-reading that.
Even if I am correct, however, that means in a full 10+ ship fleet, your opponent can have 12 mega-Stingers on a true carrier (e.g. the Iron Duke), and another 18 mega-Stingers on a pair of Rangers. Still pretty nasty!
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 11:43 am: Edit |
Those rules are for patrol scenarios.
Quote:(S8.3285) In all cases, players may make a wider use of
megapacks in a given battle only if both (or all) players agree to
do so. See the limits on the use of Megapacks in campaigns in
the various campaign updates published in Captain’s Log.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 12:18 pm: Edit |
Can someone please check my math on drones?
Non Type-VI Drones
| Source | Spaces |
| CVA | 16 |
| F-14A x 12 | 48 |
| A-20 x 6 | 24 |
| Total | 88 |
| Limited (20%) | 18 |
| Restricted (30%) | 26 |
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 02:04 pm: Edit |
Any spaces devoted to type VI drones (or ADD rounds) do not count when determining the number of restricted or limited drones.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 02:43 pm: Edit |
Right. I didn't include those. I can tweak the math and figure out the exact number of ADDs I can squeeze into the racks. I want to make sure I have the baseline right first. What's above assumes the only ADDs are the ones in the final reload.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 08:49 am: Edit |
Don't forget that if using EW fighters, the F14E has fewer drones which will affect the loadout.
Separate the ship's reloads from the fighter's, as they are in separate storage areas ... [yes, they are all available but after they are defined]
Although the type-VIs do not count for the percentages, they do count in the reload storage, the CVA has 500 fighter drones, but if 20 are needed for type VIs that leaves only 480 for the percentages ... determine the percentage of type-VIs needed and subtract that from the fighter storage first ...
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 10:12 am: Edit |
I haven't been using EW fighters specifically for that reason. If needed I will put EW pods on the fighters and loan from the carrier. For the most part they only care about ECM because the majority of their use against Hydrans is to 1) launch starfish drones against fighters and 2) launch drones against ships to soak up gatling fire. Once PFs are out I may switch to MW drones to launch at a flotilla but those also ignore EW.
2 ECM base + 1 from a pod + 4 from erratics guarantees a shift of 1 against other fighters. While that could become a shift of 2 with pods and an EW fighter I'd rather focus on disruption than evasion. That may change as we get more experience with the big fighter battles.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 11:42 am: Edit |
Ginger,
Still not convinced that MW drones are a good response to a Hydran PF flotilla. But maybe I'm missing something. Here's how I see it.
Type-VI drones do 4 points of damage to a PF and a MW drone (unless on a Type-IV frame) carries 3 of them. So if all submunitions hit, they would do 12 damage to the PF, the same as a standard Type-I. And 3 Type-VIs are harder to shoot down than single Type-I. So far, so good.
Here's the bad part. They are a lot more expensive, especially once the speed upgradeds for the submunitions are added in.
And here's the other bad part. The Type-VIs may be harder to shoot down, but for something as fast as a PF, they are easy to run out of endurance. So your mass employment of MW drones may buy you a few impulses (which could be important in some cases) but it also expends a limited (and comparatively expensive) resource while costing the Hydrans nothing but a little time.
Now, in some specific cases, those few extra impulses while the Hydran flotilla turns away may be important enough to justify the expense. But that's not something you can predict in advance. So I think it's unwise to make that a central part of your tactical approach. Starfish drones against Stingers; yup, makes a lot of sense. And MW drones are excellent for some uses, such as breaking up a huge Klingon (or Kzinti) drone wave. But against Hydran PFs? I have my doubts.
But I may be missing something. (My favorite empire is the Tholians; my second favorite is the Romulans. So I'm hardly a expert on drone usage.) So I'm curious why you prefer MW drones over standard Type-Is against Hydran PFs. Maybe there's some advantage I haven't thought of.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 12:50 pm: Edit |
My drones rules are a little rusty, but if I'm reading it right the limited/restricted percentages (LRP hereafter) also apply to the reloads? So, once the scenario begins (and all the units are loaded in compliance with LRP), would it not be possible to then unload some of the non-LRP drones and load in some of the LRP drones from the reload stores? So, given a little time and opportunity, one could effectively use more than the LRP?
Apologies Ginger this may be more of a drone rules clarification question, although it does possibly speak to the drone calculations related to your campaign so I thought I'd post it here.
--Mike
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 12:55 pm: Edit |
It's primarily the difficulty in shooting them down. While he can definitely run, they'll likely be splitting open at range 2 or 3. He has to flee quite a way to run them out of gas. That gives me time to shoot at their weaker rear shields, lay some t-bombs, deal with other incoming ships, etc.
MW drones are also better against fighters. I have to pick one or the other, not choose once I know what a battle will entail. I definitely can't go to nothing but Type-Is because stingers will always be an issue. For that reason I may just stick with one Starfish drone per special rail and use the remaining slots for Type-Is to launch at PFs. A squadron of F-111s can put 30 Type-I drones and 6 Type-I SF drones in the air. That's enough to plink away at some fighters while also overwhelming the defenses of 2 PF flotillas. A squadron of A-20s can get 18 Type-Is and 6 SF up. Still enough to overwhelm the defenses of a glotilla. The cheaper and more numerous F-18B+ can do even more.
You raise some very good points and have gotten my mental juices flowing. I may need to go back to the drawing board and toss the idea of MW drones entirely in favor of SF.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 12:59 pm: Edit |
Mike: reloads are of the same type as in the original rack. Except for the 3rd reload on a g-rack which are all ADDs. I can definitely get more LRP drones in the air. Rearming fighters with drones is a very slow process but definitely doable.
I haven't read up on the storage rules and I'm not sure how it works if I want to pull drones out of storage in a single battle. If that's possible in a timely manner then it would add even more firepower to the long term plan.
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