Ginger,

Did you read rule (J4.23) DRONE LAUNCH RAILS? The F-15D can carry two Type-IV heavy drones (requiring the use of 4 standard rails) and I believe (though I admit it's not 100% clear) that the provisions of (J4.234) are satisfied for this model, allowing it to carry Starfish or MW drones as well.

I confess also that I'm not sure why you want MW drones against PFs. Personally I would prefer drones with standard explosive warheads against PFs, especially after the shield refits are installed.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Aha. I see what you're saying. So the f-15 may get MW drones eventually. But yeah, it wouldn't be until Y185. That's 8 turns away. Maybe I'll build some then. If we make it that far.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Alan,
She wants the MW drones to saturate the Stingers' Ph-Gs. Using standard anti-ship drones theoretically can do more damage, but she can't launch enough to guaranteed they get through the gatlings. With MW drones, the Hydrans can't kill them all, guaranteeing at least some damage gets through.

Ginger,
The F-18B+ appears in Y180, which also has two special rails. It is 2 BPV cheaper than the F-14A and can be carried on pretty much any Federation carrier. Honestly, once it is available, it is probably your most effective option because it is cheaper and can be carried by virtually anything. Also, if you get cash-strapped, don't forget that anything that carries an F-14 can be downgraded to carry an F-18.

Prior to that you have three options:
- F-14A (Y177)
- A-20 (Y177)
- F-111 (Y177)
Note that you don't get the A-20F until Y179. The F-101 doesn't get special rails until the F-101C in Y179. (The reason to consider the F-101C, despite only being 1 BPV cheaper than the F-111, is that the F-111 requires a dedicated carrier. The F-101C can be carried by anything that carries an F-18. That opens a LOT of options.)

If you are willing to risk the slower A-20 (with its juicy four special rails), you can get the NCL-based NVA that carries a whole squadron of A-20s. That's 24 special rails right there. In a year you can replace the now-dead A-20s with A-20Fs and still have 24 special rails that now fly faster. (There is also the CAV, but it is *way* more expensive, so I am ignoring it.) The NVH version of this carrier works with the F-111, so that is likely your most cost effective way to field them.

A sneaky choice for an A-20 carrier is the CSV. It is a full NCL scout (with four channels) that also carries a full squadron of A-20s. Plus it isn't really all that expensive. It gives you your A-20s (with their 24 special rails), plus a full CW scout that is protected by escorts. Actually, you might really want to consider this one!

Back to the F-14A. Finding carriers for it is harder, but not impossible. I was going to suggest making your BCGs into BCVs. They only cost 6 BPV more and carry a full squadron of F-14As. Unfortunately, they don't appear until Y183. So ... on to the next.

First, the obvious: the CVA+. This carries a squadron of F-14As, plus another squadron of either A-20s or F-101s. (Yes, I am ignoring the irrelevant-in-this-situation A-10s.) You'll have to wait a year to get full benefit of either (i.e. the A-20F or F-101C), but just going in with F-14As and A-20s will give you tons of special rails.

While you have to wait a year to get the DVA, you can get the DVL *now*. This magnificent ship carries a full squadron of F-14s, and it is just glorious. Plus it is a bit cheaper than the CVA+, has an extra photon of its own, and doesn't have 120+ BPV of heavy fighters to pay for. (Unlike the CVA and DVA, however, you can't convert a DN into a DVL.)

And ... that's all I can find for the F-14A. It's hard to get the F-14A out into battle as there are so few ships that carry it, and all of them are big and expensive. It is a pity that the CVB is prevented, by rule, from being able to carry the F-14.

Finally, if you want to use the F-111, there are a ton of ships that are specifically designed to carry it. Once Y180 rolls around, you can get the ones that carry 12xF-18B+ and 6xF-111 to maximize the special rails per carrier group. Since these come in cruiser sizes, they are going to be a little more cost effective than the gigantic CVA and DVA.

I hope you find something useful somewhere in all of that ...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Addendum to the above ...

Rereading R2.F11, the F-111's bay (and therefore the F-101's bay) can carry and launch type-III drones. I take this to mean they effectively work like special rails, even if they don't count for drone cost and availability calculations.

That means an F-111 has the effective equivalent of five special rails and the F-101C has the effective equivalent of four special rails. It also means that the F-101A and F-101B have the effective equivalent of two special rails because of their two-space bay.

So, even if you are limited to the slower F-101B for a year, it can still carry two type-III drones in Y178. And in Y179 it "grows up" to be the full speed 15 F-101C with two special rails and another two type-III drones in its weapon's bay.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Mike,

I'm still not sold on the MW drones. One issue you didn't mention is the short duration once the MW drones release the submunitions. So if the Feds launch a bazillion Type-VI drones at Hydran PFs, and the Hydrans can't shoot enough of them down, the flotilla turns away and runs for a few impulses, until the submunitions run out of gas. Then the flotilla turns back in.

The DVL... I had been considering other options for the Feds to field advanced fighters, and had already considered the BCV and BCS - and rejected them after I checked the dates they came into service. But for some reason I had completely forgotten the DVL. It is a BEAST of a warship!

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 03:19 pm: Edit

My current CVAs' squadrons are 12xF-14A and 6xA-20. I've been eyeballing the NVH and CSV for sure. I didn't realize the F-18B+ gets special rails. I'll definitely have to look deeper into those once Y-180 rolls around. I like the bays on the F-111. A couple of t-bombs can do a number on an opposing flotilla of PFs.

Right now the rails are all being used for starfish drones. I'll mix it up with MW drones sometimes, too. 60 ADDs from starfish drones is a lot against a squadron of 12 stingers on a base. 60 Type-VI drones can overcome their gatlings but are weaker to the gatlings on ships so it's a tossup. In either case, I wonder when he'll start firing fusions at my drones as they get into range. 2 can take one out before it gets within range to fire or split. It takes both charges so I won't be too sad if it happens.

The biggest drone limiter for me so far hasn't been special rails. It's been percentages. A carrier gets 20% for limited drones. My CVAs could theoretically carry 48 MW drones but can't carry near that many. I don't remember the math offhand but want to say it's 20. Unless I'm missing something somewhere.

I also looked at the F-111s and am on the fence between those and A-20s. The speed is nice but megapacks will partially remedy that. The added photons from the A-20s can be brutal. Especially once PFs start to appear.

Alan, as you say, lifespan is definitely an issue and one of the reasons I went with starfish instead. Right now stingers are only speed 15 so they can't outrun speed 20 dogfight drones. That will change soon. Another point in the starfish's favor is cost. MW drones with speed upgrades are expensive as hell.

Re: DVL
We can only convert our size class 2 vessels. We can't build more.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 15, 2022 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Alan,
I don't know that MW drones are worth it. I was just repeating why she was looking at them (and the required special rails). That's all. I don't have a dog in this hunt. Just trying to help.

Ginger,
Pity on the DVL. Both the DVL and DNL are wonderful, amazing ships.

In that case, you need those CVAs until Y180.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 03:05 am: Edit

Good T-bomb usage also makes a mockery of drone swarms.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 03:20 am: Edit

If you want drones and photons, consider some of the smaller Fed carrier groups. They have an NCL carrier (I think) with a couple photons, and NCL and DD escorts each with multiple photons and drone racks. Against Hydran warships, Fed escorts come out on top at range two due to having photon torps AND numerous gatling phasers. While Fed escorts don't carry fighters themselves, they have plenty of drones and to spare for use in scatter packs.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 08:50 am: Edit

That's the NVS + NAC + DWA. You get four photons in that group. If you get clever, you can swap out the DWA for the FFB escort for a fifth photon. However, this only nets you 12 F-18s and she'll have to wait until Y180 to get the F-18B+ for the special rails.

Swap out the NVS for a NVH (F-111) or NVA (A-20) and you keep the same number of photons. (I mentioned these ships earlier.)

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 08:59 am: Edit

Richard, you're absolutely right about the T-Bombs. It's another reason I prefer starfish. They can still be bombed but you have to do it sooner. I screwed up in the fight and launched as a stack. Thankfully he wasn't expecting them to pop out over 75 ADDs so he didn't bomb them. I think he thought they were just there to soak gatling fire and was happy to oblige.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 11:24 am: Edit

Oooo. While looking at the Federation Third Way rules in S8, I noticed something else that may help in Y179. (The Third Way rules don't apply until Y181.)

Rule (S8.3283) says that only twelve fighters (or six heavy fighters) can have megapacks. However, rule (S8.3285) lets you double that as long as at least half of them are F-111s. On the other hand, it also includes exceptions for Hydrans which gives them double (or, in the case of a massive fleet, even triple) the allowance of megafighters, too.

Kind of a two-edged sword there ...

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 11:41 am: Edit

Those rules are for patrol scenarios.

---

Quote:

(S8.3285) In all cases, players may make a wider use of
megapacks in a given battle only if both (or all) players agree to
do so. See the limits on the use of Megapacks in campaigns in
the various campaign updates published in Captain’s Log.

---

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Actually the starfish is the big killer of fighters.

EACH type Istarfish is going to hit twice if it is set to pop at range 3. And they do a d6 vs each fighter.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 16, 2022 - 02:48 pm: Edit

They have to spread the love randomly, though. It means you can't focus fire and guarantee damage doubles up. It's possible to end up with lots of damaged fighters and no dead or crippled ones. Alternatively it may end up that a lot of shots hit the same few fighters.

For simplicity's sake we spread them out evenly because I had so many of them firing into a stack of 12 fighters. I'm sure we'll roll it out when smaller numbers are involved.

Either way they're better vs Hydran gatlings and can't be distracted by chaff.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 01:33 pm: Edit

What are your thoughts on the best mid-range Federation scout?

I'm leaning towards the CSV since it gets a flotilla of A-20s to back it up. Then again you have to buy the entire carrier fleet so maybe it can't be considered "mid range."

I also like the CAD though limited production makes it harder to utilize.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 02:45 pm: Edit

CSV may require escorts.

IMHO the GSC is an outstanding workhorse mid-range scout, and can be configured in commando or CVL modes. The GSC is also a "single ship carrier" and thus does not require escorts under S8.

Of course, in your campaign game you might not have the same escort requirements in which case the CSV may be an excellent choice.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Yes, the CSV needs escorts. That's what I meant by "the entire carrier fleet." We're using those requirements. Carriers have to have the escorts and fighters listed for their era in the master starship book. At least when they're built. We haven't discussed what happens if, for example, and escort gets blown up or the listed escorts change in a given year. We'll burn that bridge when we come to it.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Note that F111 carriers after Y180 can play PFT so that escorts are optional ...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Ginger,

For Fed scouts, I strongly recommend getting a CFS, the scout built on the CF fast cruiser hull. I haven't looked at the Admiral's Game rules in a while so I'm not sure if being strategically "fast" is an advantage in that campaign. But even if it isn't, the CFS is an excellent scout tactically because of the amount of power it has; 42 points on a cruiser hull. Though it has 4 Special Sensors, it has a lot more power to pump through them than a CSV or GSC does. I think it's the best scout the Federation can field until X-ships come along (even more so if the strategic campaign rules do give some advantage to "fast" ships).

The only drawback is that it is "Unique", so you can only get one of them.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 12:26 am: Edit

I don't have CL27 for the CFS.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 12:39 am: Edit

It's also in Module R12.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 09:56 am: Edit

Thanks! It's added to my options spreadsheet. I definitely like it. It would make a good vessel in a carrier fleet to protect the CVS.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 10:03 am: Edit

For Fed scouts, keep the LSC (R2.A20), presented in CL32, in mind. Six special sensors on an old light cruiser hull. Only one built (as a prototype), but that one can make a very useful fleet scout, particularly as it has a light cruiser's power curve, as well as four batteries to the standard Hermes-class scout's two (allowing for more impromptu EW shifts).

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 10:54 am: Edit

I don't have that one, either. The bank says I've bought too many CLs this pay period. :-(