Archive through November 25, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Federation Tactics:
Archive through November 25, 2022
Another really good Fed scout, that I had forgotten about, is the NHS, from Module R10. It may even be better than the CFS.
The NHS is built on the NCA hull and, like the original Fed scout, has a whopping eight special sensors. But the original Fed scout didn't really generate enough power to properly use that many channels, except for some very limited applications. Even the SC+ only generates 23 point of power. The NCA-based NHS generates 38 power. YIS is Y177 and the ship is classed as "RPL".
Personaly I think I still prefer the CFS. I think that's partly for its superior strategic speed. But that's only ever a consideration for some sets of campaign rules and I don't know whether the Admiral's Game would fit that description. Purely as a platform for generating EW, it can support a few ships with very heavy EW (which the CFS can do but the SC+ cannot) or it can use a lot of channels at once as long as the power requirements for each individul channel are comparatively low (which the SC+ can do but the CFS cannot). And like the CFS but unlike the DD-based SC+, it has the shields and durability of a heavy cruiser. I holds up much better under enemy fire than the SC+.
For a campaign in which fast strategic movement doesn't confer any particular advantage, I think I may have to revise my previous statement about the CFS being the best Fed scout. Though I really like the CFS, objectively, the NHS probably beats it.
Fast strategic movement doesn't do anything in The Admiral's Game since it's basically just a pyramid of sectors to fight through. The NHS looks pretty nice. I do like the CFS better but with only one ever built it has limited usefulness. I suspect I'll build one of those to use with smaller fleets and some NHSes to use with larger ones. If I can afford them, that is
Carrier groups are expensive as heck if you're including swordfish drones on a squadron of fighters and in the racks. One CVA refit is going to cost me 126 points just for the fighters' drones. I've probably said this before but I'm dreading Y180 when fast drones no longer come out of commander's options. Upgrading an entire fleet from medium to fast is going to break the bank. That may be the turn where I churn out scouts because I can't afford to build another carrier group.
That NHS would be great at breaking drone lock-on's! That is 24 attempts per turn.
note that with 8 channels, even if you aren't using them all, you can afford to blind a few.
Small group tactics:
Say you have a group with 20 or 24 photons against Hydrans. Do you do a proxy dance at speed 20-ish? Does it change depending on if they're focused on hellbores or fusions?
My plans are to stick to range 30-ish for as long as possible and fire proxies every other round. Assuming no shift that's a down shield and a smattering of internals to someone every other turn. That either forces them to turn away or gives me another shot doing all internals.
I will only consider moving to overload range if forced to or if the other side is truly juicy thanks to repeated internal barrages. I'm contemplating firing them at range 8 rather than waiting for range 4. The fighters are more likely to be on board and the damage drop is not too bad. 160 instead of 213 will still destroy a cruiser as opposed to crippling two of them.
Phasers will be saved for fighters though those are speed 15 so should never be able to catch me unless I really mess up. I won't have any starfish drones to soften them up and won't have enough standard drones to put a dent in gatling pulses so the racks will be set to ADDs after launching extended range ECM drones once it looks like we'll be closing. They won't do much but might soak up a few gatling pulses each.
The math changes a lot if he brings a scout and can force a shift of 1. In that case it may be worthwhile to try and get range 30 from the scout (15 from the opposing fleet). If it isn't protecting itself then it takes the internals and has to make the hard choice. If it is then I target the ship it can't protect as it's unlikely a scout will be able to protect everyone with more than a shift of 1. Even a shift of one is very painful as it reduces the proxy barrage from 40 to 26 damage. Not even enough to drop a #1 shield or do internals through the 2 and 6.
In any case I will devote power to ECCM equal to 6 - the number of batteries the ship has. I can jump to 6 if needed but will have more power available for speed. Speed, I believe, is paramount to my victory. He could actually afford to take 80 points on a #1 shield if it means getting in my face. The shuttle boxes are very well protected behind the engines and hull. Because of that there may be turns when I speed up to 30 and completely forego arming photons just so I can open the range and continue the long, slow waltz.
The goal of course is to kill ships without being killed myself. Crippling is good but will, at most, take the ship out of the fight for one campaign turn as it goes in for repairs. Failing that, I'll want to kill as many fighters as possible. Replacing them will put a dent in his production for next turn.
There's a silly trick I tried using with a Federation CVSG that almost worked. I had the flagship fire its Photon Torpedoes with standard fuse at extreme range with narrow salvoes.
Just needed one die roll of "1" on an opponent.
Meanwhile, the DE held its Photon Torpedoes with full (sixteen point) overloads as a "Defensive Measure;" the idea being that ALL the weapons on the escorts were meant for the defense of the carrier and its fighters, and sometimes that defense meant using them to "Scare" the enemy. After all, who wants to send in a Frigate or Destroyer to possibly face twin tubes loaded with sixteen point overloads?
Oh! And the two FFE were a little more distant, as was an attached FFS.
Anyhow, I did two narrow salvoes, missing my opponent (he was flying Klingons), and his long range scattered fire was doing a number on my Hornets (they had WBPs, not Mega-Packs 
) and I gave up the tactic before I scored a hit with it.
Ended up losing that fight too, as I so often do.
The expected damage for proxies at that range is a little under double that of standards. In much smaller numbers the salvos may be worth it. For example if you have one ship you can expect 8 damage from proxies. Average damage for a salvo of standards is only 5 but when it actually happens you're doing the full 32.
I don't know if I could do that, though. I already hate the Feds' reliance on die rolls. Putting it down to such a major crap shoot feels horrible.
Then again I have one sector in which I only have 2 DDs. That might be a valid option for them since they don't have the power to move and overload but they can go 25 and load standards. That force is almost certain to disengage unless he shows up with an equally under-gunned fleet. Especially since we're using EW and every point of EW costs 2 points of speed. 17 with 4 ECCM risks the Hydrans getting too close for comfort.
I've fought a FED that uses prox photons. He has yet to lose a game. He closes to range 30, fires them all at a single ship and bounces back out of range. (We do not play with EW.) I could not close with my Hydrans or ISC as we play with floating maps. (It makes me think about taking Klingons against him.) Anyway, my ships are damaged and his are not when we run out of time.
John,
What do you do on the turn after your Federation opponent fires?
--Mike
Charge at speed 31 with reinforcement.
Ginger,
You may have a problem with your proposed tactics if the Hydran plans to oppose you with a hellbore-heavy fleet. You talk about what range you should fight at, but some of those hellbore ships have such great power curves that it's not at all clear you will get to choose the range. Your NCLs are good at fighting at very high speeds but a lot of your other ships just don't have the power for it. And even the Fed NCL is outclassed in that respect by the Hydran Tartar.
Consider:
Fed NCL: Generates 32 points of power. Can maintain speed 30, pay housekeeping, and still have 8 points left for weapons.
Hydran Tartar: Generates 36 points of power. Can maintain speed 30, pay housekeeping, and still have 12 points left for weapons.
Fed CAR+: Generates 36 points of power. Can maintain speed 30, pay housekeeping, and still have 2 points left for weapons.
Hydran Dragoon+: Generates 43 points of power. Can maintain speed 30, pay housekeeping, and still have 9 points left for weapons.
Fed NCA: Generates 38 points of power. Can maintain speed 30, pay housekeeping, and still have 4 points left for weapons. (WOW! A whole FOUR points!)
Hydran Iroquois: (Same as Dragoon+)
So you're talking as if you will be able to choose the range, against an enemy who can (if he makes the appropriate ship choices) field a force that is no faster than yours in an absolute sense (speed-31 max) but is much better at fighting at high speeds since he has so much more power remaining at those speeds. And this problem is aggravated by the fact that (again, assuming the Hydrans go with the "hellbore-heavy" option) you have a relatively narrow long-range band at which you outgun him. Hellbores don't do much at 31-40 hexes but your photon torpedoes (prior to X-tech) can't engage at all. You have the edge from 23-30 hexes but if that hellbore fleet gets to 22 hexes he has a huge advantage.
Until megafighters become available, the fighters are (comparatively) easy to deal with on a floating map. (This assumes you are on the offensive. It's much tougher if the Hydran is attacking one of your bases, or something slow, like a convoy of freighters.) But trying to play "long-range tag" on a floating map; if he masses his Dragoons, Iroquois, and Tartars; is very tough, at least in my opinion.
>> points left for weapons
Also note that for the Federation ships, going maximum speed may take up most or all of the warp power (depends upon the ship) and may restrict or preclude loading photons.
--Mike
Most can't do the full 30 but the newer ships come close. The NCL can do it. The DD is stuck at 23.
Hi Mike,
Ginger answered the question.
What you should know is that the FED has AWR, allowing photons to be charged with minimal loss of speed. And they have drones for me to deal with if I close the range too much. And there will be hidden T-Bombs.
At best I can close a few hexes per turn. My fighting range is realistically 10 hexes or less. To make up 20 hexes allows a lot of prox photon attacks.
He has three options if I get closer, (1) disengage with no damage, (2) maintain the distance and fight with drones/scatter packs, T-Bombs or (3) close behind a drone wave with overloaded photons. That is scary when I have many damaged ships.
It is best to defend a fixed target - the FED has to close to achieve his objective. We would have Ginger's game!
The Fed only has to close against fixed targets if a) there's a defending fleet and b) it's a fixed map. Without defenders you sit at 30 and plink away. With a floating map you can still dance away if they chase or plink if they don't.
Some races can handle those long ranges better. Hydrans with hellbores can do alright, especially once they've closed to 22. PPDs can do alright at 20 in smaller battles though the limits on how many you can have make it worse for them the larger the fleets get. Disruptors with DERFACS do the same average damage though the Feds can maneuver to split it up between shields.
Seems like the warp power requirement for arming photons would substantially impact the top speed of the Fed ships. Specifically the 1/2 and 2/3 movers.
Randy, see above. It does hurt many of them, especially the older hulls. Some smaller ones may not be able to break 20. Lots of the ships are fine, though. For example the NCL can do 30 and arm. Because of AWR, EW is a bigger factor for the smaller ships in terms of lost movement.
>> What you should know is that the FED has AWR
AWR definitely helps, more so on some Fed designs than others, but it doesn't completely address the limitation. On the base CA, for example, there are only 2 AWR and 30 warp. So arming 4 standard photons will cost 8 and limits top warp speed to 24. Arming full overloads will cost 16 warp and limit top warp speed to 16.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's an important balancing factor for Fed/Photons.
--Mike
Hellbores need a 6 at range 22. And only does 8 if it hits (and 4 points is spread to the weakest shields). Well, in my book this is less than alright. Generally, there will be less Hellbores than Prox Photons in a fleet.
PPDs need a 7 at range 20. That is an average dice roll. So yes, that is alright. Plus, one gets 4 pulses of damage if the hit is the first attempt (4-8-4). However, the total number of PPDs is restricted. Generally, there are a lot less PPDs than Prox Photons in a fleet.
Disruptors (must be range 30) should be interesting to play. One must have Derfacs to be theoretically even.
For fun, I once fired P1s at a down shield at range 51 - 75. If I got a hit and a warp box was destroyed, then that ship could not disengage by acceleration. Alas, no hits at all. The ship got away.
My plan at the moment is to count the fighters. A fleet heavy with hellbores will have few and I can charge with overloads after softening up a little. A fusion fleet will have a ton and you couldn't pay me to get close. I'll run and gun for as long as possible.
Of course, they won't be balanced patrol scenarios with even BPV. It would barely surprise me if we ended up with several I flee from and several he flees from. We ended up only playing one of the four battles set up for turn one. I'll be happy as long as I win 8 out of 5.
For run-n-gun for the Feds, you want BCs (29), NCLs (30), and DWs (28). The DNG and FFG can each manage 27. Avoid the CA, CC, and DD.
The CC and DD can do 26 if they don't arm one photon. It might get me another volley or two depending on the opposition.
I only have 2 DDs. They're all alone and are almost guaranteed to simply disengage before the fight starts. I did it that way because each sector needs at least 2 ships assigned and if I basically ignore one I can send more ships to the rest.
Any of my ships which flee have to go into the reserves for the next turn but these two are slated to be refitted to DEAs next turn so would be in reserve anyway.
Your DD's can hide behind those BIG ships and snipe!
They've done that before but my focus right now is to win 5 out of 8 sectors so I stacked where I could. They'll retreat this time. Next time I'll have frigates and police ships to feint in places. The overall goal is to progress through the defensive layers in the campaign, not just win battles.
John,
I still disagree about hellbores versus photon torpedoes at range-22. A proximity-fused photon torpedo hits 50% of the time, doing 4 damage. This gives an expectation of 2 points per torpedo per shot. A hellbore hits on a 6 or less on 2 dice, which is 15 chances out of 36, or 5/12 of the time, doing 8 damage. So the hellbores have an expectation of 31/3 points per shot. The Federation fleet may have a few more photon torpedoes than the Hydrans have hellbores, but against a hellbore-heavy fleet they will not have enough to overcome this difference in expected damage. The Hydrans will simply do more damage over time.
The issue is complicated by the fact that the damage is applied differently. The photon torpedoes all hit a single shield while the hellbore damage is spread over all shields. This means the Feds might (depending on several factors) do more internals on the initial exchange. But as the battle progresses the Hydran ships can turn fresh shields to the Feds while continuing to do damage through the weakened or down shields of Fed ships. And hellbores are better for "Mizia" attacks. In the long run, this will be hard for the Feds to deal with.
And there is still the issue of the superior Hydran power curves, which have implications for both the ranges at which the combat actually takes place and also for the EW shift. The Feds can compete for a while with ECM drones but these are finite resource. Also, I believe Ginger's campaign is still in the period when drones are medium speed. And ECM drones won't help the photon accuracy if the Hydrans run high-ECM themselves, while the Hydrans can generally run high-ECCM while still both arming hellbores and maintaining high speed.