Archive through December 15, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
ISC Tactics:
Archive through December 15, 2022
For those with a copy of CL41 Supplemental; how would you make use of the new Light Battleship?
Would you fly it in a 'fast echelon' (with a DNL, CF and CLF, perhaps) or send it out solo?
Would you keep the 4 PPDs, or try the plasma variant suggested in the R-section?
And how would you take on the King Shrike or Gorn BBL (from CL41); or less orthodox challenges like, say, a Juggernaut CA or Andro Intruder (plus brood)?
Slightly OT here, but what does Supplemental mean? Is CL41 a 2 part CL or something?
It's a $5 PDF expansion sold through SJG's e23 website. (that's Steve Jackson Games)
The last several Captain's Logs had "Supplemental files" which were 28-page or 32-page booklets with things such as designer notes, rejected term papers (and why they were rejected), leftover articles, leftover battle groups, more SSDs for the type done in the issue, Origins reports, Terrorwerks battle reports, and so forth. We have always sold hard copies on our shopping cart (and sell a bunch of them). We originally put the first few as PDFs on the website for free for a while, but Leanna took them down and decided to charge for them (through e23) because they take a whole day of "Steve Cole AND Steve Petrick Game Designer Time (tm)" to produce and we cannot afford to do them at all if we don't get something for the time spent.
More than fair IMHO.
The supplemental stuff is to my mind well worth the five bucks.
I've ever played ISC (and don't know if I ever will) but I've always been curious. How well do they fare in fleet battles when their strongest weapon is so limited in numbers?
Prior to the onset of the PPD, the "unified" Early Years and Middle Years ISC fleet would operate perhaps most similarly to the Gorns, but with more forward-oriented plasma launch arcs. Which was not a real issue in the "standard" timeline, but would be a factor for actions against Paravian and/or Romulan fleets over in "Mapsheet P" timelines.
In the General War/Pacification era, the main issue is less to do with the deployment restrictions on the PPD itself - which is too powerful a weapon for them to be allowed to use in an unrestricted manner - but with how the Echelon struggles against enemy fleets deployed in a "superstack".
Which, on a side note, is one reason why I'd wonder if the Echelon might better suit those "sibling" game systems which have strict no-stacking rules, such as A Call to Arms: Star Fleet. (Federation Commander limits direct-fire stacking to a certain extent, but has no limits on a "seeker-stack" at this time of writing.)
While in the Andromedan War, the ISC are more likely to deploy plasma variants of otherwise PPD-armed hull types, due to the difficulties in optimizing PPD usage against the invaders. (In SFB, that is; over in FC, where the PPD is turned from a scalpel into a sledgehammer, this is a much more useful anti-Andro weapon...)
I never understood how the echelon mattered. Specifically because of the stacking issue you describe. Stacked fleets cripple or pop smaller ships every turn so you will very quickly lose your gun line while your PPDs are waiting to get into optimal range. I suppose you could bolt a bunch of plasma from the front line as the second line crosses into range 15 for the PPDs. But then you don't have plasma to chase the enemy away.
Speaking of chasing the enemy away, mixing such a heavy direct fire weapon with seeking weapons seems odd. The 2-turn arming makes dancing more difficult and seeking weapons are often used to control movement so you can dance with your DF guns (at least for the disruptor races I usually play.
You also end up with maneuvering issues though those might be less problematic to someone with lots of experience flying the echelon.
Speaking of optimal range, what's your favorite range for the PPD? Based on the chart it looks like R15 might be best to start softening up your enemy.
All of these questions point to why I'm not a huge ISC fan. I'd love to have my mind changed, though.
Think tractor anchors.
The gunline anchors enemies as the fleets meet. The overgunned CLs from the second echelon can bombard with their Plasma-S (or fast loaded Plasma-F) torpedoes while the overloaded PPDs have a target that is neither too close nor too far for the full six impulses they're firing it.
From my experiences, though, the rigid gunline/echelon idea never works. What usually happens is the opponents hang back and use massed Disruptor/Hellbore/Photon Torpedo fire on the gunline while they remain out of effective Plasma-F range from the ISC. This is also usually out of effective range for BOTH sides from the second and third echelon, but for the ISC, it turns into "Divide and be conquered."
Ironically, the one time I ever had any degree of success with the ISC, I flew a CA accompanied by two DD against, if I remember correctly, a Kzinti force of two CM and two FF. I used the DDs as stand-off "Gorn Anchor" tractor units and they were able to hold one of the CMs for long enough for all six PPD pulses to be fired and the two Plasma-S to make their run in. Meanwhile, the eight Plasma-F torpedoes fired after the other CM and the FF kept them at range.
The Kzinti did send in a pretty hefty slew of drones, but since I was already slow (thanks to the Anchor maneuver) I felt comfortable with launching all my shuttles as mobile Phaser-3 platforms. Between them and the Phasers on my three ships (which I deliberately did NOT use against the trapped plasma magnet), I was able to negate the drone wave pretty easily and my opponent withdrew.
To be honest, I don't know if it's really that good of a tactic or if I was allowed to succeed because of our standing agreement; whomever won the fight treated his/her opponent for pizza...
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Ha! I'd let more people win if we had that deal!
I agree about people hanging back with long range fire for a while. That's what I see in fleet battles, too. It sounds like your Kzin friend should have done a bit more of that.
The tractor thing is interesting. I hadn't thought of it. I'll have to keep it in mind if I ever play the Concordium and my opponent let's me get that close. It's a shame the myopic range keeps the PPD unit from doing the tractoring themselves.
According to what I remember from the source material, the ISC had twice as many frigates as anyone they faced, So, the joke went somewhat, when the question of "How many ISC frigate squadrons are we facing?", the answer was always, "The squadron we will destroy in this battle, and the one we will destroy in the next battle."
So, historically, they used the echelon, and cared less about gun line losses, than protecting their big ships, which enabled them to carry the fight across the galaxy. I guess they were playing the Admiral's Game, with twice the allowed number of resources. ;)
Tactically, every game involving the ISC that I have seen in SFB, (8-10, I would guess), the echelon quickly collapses into a stack, and the battle bloodily proceeds from there.
Right, as far as "historically" goes, the ISC came in with full fleets when no one else could really field them to that degree, and they mostly just forced everyone back to their pre-war territories and policed the neutral zones.
In practice, when I've flown ISC in fleet or multi-ship engagements, you don't actually try to make a full echelon, but rather a 2 stack or 3 stack "mini-echelon" formation. This actually works well, you just keep the PPD ships back a couple hexes so they are less viable targets for long range bombardment and can get their full PPD pulses in. If you get in close, you can use surviving gunline ships as anchors, or just overrun and toss the rear firing weapons out.
An oddity with rear firing torps is after an overrun because they pop out only in directions C or E you can sometimes even get them to come around to forward facing shields if your target is slow/anchored, or force the enemy to turn in a direction you prefer (gunline fires left torps, "encourages" enemy ships to turn left, away from them, but if your capital ships turned right, something gets those front shields).
ISC still do better than Gorn or Romulans in open space; but generally you don't have to 'win' open space battles, and when attacking fix points, they do very well.
How would you attack a fixed point? Say a base with defenders and a possible minefield?
Chuck heavy plasma torpedoes at the base, perhaps PPDs if the defending fleet keeps at long range.
Keep the ISC ship formation tight, FFs/DDs a bit ahead of the heavier ships (1-2 hexes).
EPTs can be used to good effect, just make sure one torp hits per impulse so even if WWs are used you get damage accumulating.
If you can get to range eight, you can use overloaded PPDs and mass phaser ones if the defending fleet doesn't close with you. If the defending fleet tries to close, you can use all those gunline torps and all your phasers/PPDs on the fleet instead.
Personally? I'd get my heavy ships at a fourteen to fifteen hex range from the primary target (the base) and pound it with Plasma-S and PPD fire. At that range, each Phaser-4 on the base will do, on average, just over three points of damage. Meanwhile, the ISC Plasma-S will do twenty two points (minus phaser damage, of course) or forty four if enveloping, the PPDs will do 1+3+1 (or 3+2) points of damage per pulse, and even the Phaser-1s on the ISC force will, absent an EW shift, do a point each on average rolls. Send out the Plasma-S one at a time, with perhaps a three impulse break between them. If he Weasels one, the Weasel will only take the one and he'll run out of shuttles soon enough.
Meanwhile, the heavy ships of a largely stationary assaulting force ought to have plenty of power to handle a dozen points (on average) of shield reinforcement.
This should draw out the mobile defenders. If so, the base and its defenders will be destroyed piecemeal. If not, the base will slowly be pounded to scrap metal.
A weasel will distract every plasma in flight, even if the weasel is destroyed.
I tend to try and stay at range 15 or farther against bases with most fleets. There are a few, like fusion-heavy Hydrans, who want to get closer. But most races can do well with R15 bombardment. And save a whopping 37 damage per turn from the Phaser-IVs. That said, some folks are vastly better at R8 or closer (Feds) so it's likely worth it since you'll blast the base to smithereens in one turn.
I don't see that being as good of an idea with PPDs. You'll do an extra 4-5 damage per PPD, which is great. But you'll also lose a ship or two in the process (assuming defenders, of course). Then again, I'm not experienced with the PPDs ability to strip weapons and power. Maybe that makes up for the perceived weaknesses.
Yeah, range 15 is good for the PPD. Fire all of them at the base. An I-CC with 2xPPD can do 1+3+1 times 2 times 4 if it hits on the first pulse. That is 8-24-8.
Range 8 is risky, but one may overload against a base. That might be 1+4+1 times 2 times 6. Or 12+48+12. Bolting plasma/launching plasma and P1 fire is optional. It depends on the situation.
An overloaded PPD with 6 pulses does 6-24-6, not 12-48-12.
But 2 of them (CC) does 12-48-12, just like 2 standards do 8-24-8.
In the historical timeline, by the time the ISC is sending its fleets along the Pacification cordons, it also has access to sabot plasma, which can increase the effective range at which the Echelon's seeking plasma can pose a threat.
In the "Mapsheet P" timelines, this might be a wash against Romulan sabot plasma. But it could cause problems for the "lost empire" Paravians, who presently lack a sabot-equivalent upgrade to the quantum wave torpedo.
Indeed, once first-generation X-ships enter the equation, the combination of the X-PPD (which can be fast-loaded, albeit with standard loads limited to range 15) and the plasma-M torpedo (which can itself be armed as a sabot warhead) help place ISC X-squadrons amongst the most dangerous of their kind in the Alpha Octant - as demonstrated in a number of historical scenarios in Module X1 and Module X1R.
The Paravians of the period cannot be measured until their advanced technology rules and units are published (or until it is stated they don't have those things).