Even in the historical timeline, while certain high-profile interventions (such as the destruction of the Seltorian Hive Ship Burning Torch of Vengeance in Y186) involved ISC X-squadrons, the bulk of the Concordium's Pacification forces - and those of the various belligerent empires they encountered along the way - comprised of non-X ships. No doubt the same would be true in a "Mapsheet P" timeline in which the Concordium found itself mired in the General War against a Romulan-Paravian Coalition.

So while one might have to wait for a would-be "Module C6R" - or, perhaps, for a preview in a future issue of Captain's Log - to see what "lost empire" Paravian X-tech looks like, at least beyond the allowances for partial-X refits currently accounted for in Module C6 itself, it is yet possible to compare and contrast their current crop of non-X units to those ISC and Gorn counterparts which would be available in the early-to-mid Y180s.

Although, given the economic limitations imposed on the "Mapsheet P" Paravians over in the "lost empire" preview for F&E in CL48, perhaps their biggest challenge might be in surviving long enough for them to get around to deploying "late-war" unit types, such as BCHs and PF flotillas, in the first place...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, December 15, 2022 - 12:40 pm: Edit

WARNING!! WARNING!! DULL MATH APPROACHING!!

At Range 15, a PPD has a 13 in 18 chance of hitting on the first pulse. If so, it does 4+12+4 damage.

Again, at Range 15, there's a 299 in 324 chance of hitting by the second pulse. That's a still respectable 3+9+3 damage.

ASSUMING an ISC DN is leading the force, it's not unreasonable to assume that, among its FOUR PPDs, there's likely to be fourteen pulses hitting the target at Range 15.

14+42+14.

Now add a pair of CL firing Plasma-S torpedoes at the shield that's just taked forty two points of damage...

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, December 15, 2022 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Don't forget that the base may be rotating ...

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 10:13 am: Edit

I am embarrassed to say that I have missed with all of the PPDs pulses. Never-the-less, I go with the positive "best case" for the DN (PPD version).

So, 1-3-1 at range 15, times 4 (PPD), times 4 (pulses) does 16-48-16. If fully overloaded at range 8 (1-4-1, times 4, times 6, does 24-96-24)!

Assuming 2xCS are allowed in the SQ, then double the numbers!! (32-96-32 and 48-192-48 respectively).

Followed up by 2xCL with plasma S...

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 12:01 pm: Edit

You'd need 11 ships to get those 2 CS into the fight alongside the dreadnought.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 12:31 pm: Edit

(E11.17) FLEET LIMIT: ISC doctrine and the availability of PPDs
limited how many could be deployed in a given area at a given time.
For purposes of ISC ships in a patrol scenario, the maximum number
of PPDs is calculated as follows: The flagship (the largest ship present) with whatever PPDs it has (a maximum of four), plus one PPD
for every group of three ships in addition to the command ship
(counting a maximum of one fractional group). This yields a maximum
of eight PPDs in a standard eleven-ship fleet.

1 DN 4PPD. I CA 1PPD with 2DD for the CA. (gives min needed for a DN 3 other ships,) A CA 1ppd and LC as a partial group. Gives 6 PPD 6plas-S and 4plasF. Then depending on date how many rear firing F torps.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 12:40 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

For purposes of ISC ships in a patrol scenario...

---

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 02:13 pm: Edit

A fleet with a DN and 4CAs and 6 other ships is rather scary if you ask me.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, December 16, 2022 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Is there a way in SFB to have a ship with a CMD rating of 11?

Even scarier is:
If one ignores "doctrine" and the "gunline", A DN, CC, and 9xCA would have 15 PPDs.

A DN, CC, 9xCS would have 24 PPDs. (Giving up a lot of S torps.)

Well, this may be unbalancing, hence "doctrine" and "gunline" in the rules.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, December 17, 2022 - 12:31 am: Edit

Over in F&E ISC War, an all-ISC Echelon force is able to assemble a "gunline group" [(324.42)], which allows six Size Class 4 ships to be counted as four ships for the purpose of command limits. Although at least three of those have to be frigate-sized or smaller.

But on the other hand, ISC War limits the number of PPD "mount points" which the ISC receives per turn, under (545.21) and (624.43); these are required in order to build new PPD-armed ships, or to convert a given hull to a PPD-armed (or to a more heavily PPD-armed) variant.

Although, there are only so many core formation slots a given size of Echelon provides under (324.21); any "extra" PPD-armed ships do not gain the formation bonus. So there is somewhat of a diminishing return, in terms of taking more PPD-armed variants in a given Echelon than there are core formation slots in which to protect them.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Monday, December 19, 2022 - 03:57 pm: Edit

I am reasonably sure it is legal for a C-T cartel Orion force of a BCH and 10 BRH's to field 22 PPD (and have 22 plasma-d's). If you want a max scary PPD force. Not that Orions likely would field such a force, but...

At least it was many years ago when I checked.

Tim Linden.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 19, 2022 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Well, sorta; I doubt the C-T cartel had 10 BRHs at any one time. Or even five.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 19, 2022 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Thanks, all. I fibbed at the start of this conversation. We finally got the rules hammered out for our campaign and I'm playing ISC. I've never fired a PPD and rarely play plasma so it'll be an interesting change. Now I get to square off against the Lyrans and Feds on my borders. I'm thinking Lyrans are a good match. Feds will be tougher if they dance with proximity photons from outside of PPD range.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 19, 2022 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Ignore echelon tactics if they aren't suited for the scenario.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 19, 2022 - 11:57 pm: Edit

That was the plan. The only thing they seem useful for is avoiding explosion damage but you lose a lot of maneuverability and ability to concentrate firepower. Plus you put your weaker ships closer to enemy heavy weapons than the enemy is to your own.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 - 12:01 am: Edit

Thoughts on this fleet?

DN
CS
CAT
CL
CL
SC

It's the most PPDs I could squeeze in. I'm wondering if I should have gone 2xCA instead of the CS and a CL but that would have been more expensive and might have been out of my price range. The extra s-torps would have been really nice.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 - 09:05 am: Edit

Try trading the CAT and CS for 2xCA.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 - 09:19 am: Edit

Wait, What?!
No drone race?

My advice is to "Have Fun" with the ISC.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I confess I've never really understood the rationale for "echelon tactics". I do understand the rationale for "(E11.17) FLEET LIMIT". The PPD was presumably difficult to build and the ISC never had all that many of them. The E11.17 restrictions prevent the player from forming unrealistic fleets, similarly to the way (E12.16) FLEET LIMIT prevents the Tholians from massing unrealistically large numbers (in this galaxy} of web casters into a single fleet; and not really all that different from the way the S8 rules prevent an empire from stuffing a whole bunch of dreadnoughts in to a single force. So far, so good.

But even given the E11.17 restrictions, "echelon tactics" seem to me to be... sub-optimal.

YMM, I suppose, V.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Way back in the day before doomsday edition. The explosion strength of ships was very high. So much so that one ship exploding could cripple the rest in a stack. I kind of miss that. Now of course You still have that explosion able to take out stacks of fighters or seeker drones.
Those high explosion rates made the original use of the echelon formation optimal. Not stacking ships but getting max firepower on 1 shield of 1 ship. 1 weapon 4 pulses 1 ship.

Is the echelon still viable now? Super stacking fleets is no problem. Other than sending out huge stacks of seekers. However, a DD or FF exploding can still hurt the stack. Just not cripple the fleet.

Spreading out the gun line? Then a DD or FF exploding does not damage others. It also spreads out the forest of torps launched. That makes it harder to dodge the stack of Plasma. In a fleet battle. The DD and FF ships if present get blown to bits. No matter if slightly in front or stacked with the big ships. This applies mostly to Direct fire races. A spread-out gun line can also give a better indication of what ship is being targeted by seekers.

The PPD ships. Is it good to keep them a few hexes back from the gunline? Not so far as the orginal echelon shows. But one or two yes.

Cost. The PPD armed heavy units are expensive. After y180 very much so. The ISC CC is 220 BPV. In y170 ish 208 BPV, most other such ships are around 150 up to 160 or so BPV. A 3 ship cruiser squadron with a CC and 2 CA. Is under 500 BPV and that is the high end. Y170 is 208 CC 2 CA 326 (163 each) 534 total. Buying the Bigger PPD ship and adding LC, DD or FFs balances the BPV.

Does this mean the smaller gun line ship gets plastered. Direct fire races will of course do so.

A Klingon D7C 150BPV (rounded with COs and drones) 2 D7 each around 140 or so BPV. 12 disrupters. With the K refit. A DD,FF is going to lose shields and take internals each turn inside range15. However, a ISC destroyer has power to burn. 20 power and nothing to spend it on. High ECM plus a ECM plasma. Then EM, not such a easy target.

EW is great with echelon force. The Gunline does max ecm. The PPD ship uses ECCM and can be loaned from a scout. Easier to lone to 1 ship then the 3 ship CA group.

A single PPD does more damage on average then 4 Disr in one turn. Not as much due to the two-turn arming cycle. A possible 4-12-4 total twice.

Just some rambling thoughts is all.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, December 21, 2022 - 10:13 am: Edit

In my opinion, the purpose of the echelon is to soak up weapons fire in order to preserve the big ships. It does look "pretty" on the map . Note, that any race can use echelon tactics, so it is not that unusual.

The echelon is "broken" once the fleet tries to turn. Inevitably, the big ships become the front-line.

Those Klingons are supposed to pay for all those nice Drone upgrades. Most players assume that the cost of drones is included in the listed BPV. (Only X-ships have the cost of drones included in their BPV.) I once made a Klingon scream when I commented, "so you are using slow drones"!

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 21, 2022 - 10:32 am: Edit

Just don't forget that speed upgrades can be part of COs if the year is right.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 21, 2022 - 11:19 am: Edit

Some thoughts on Vandar's and Tarkin22180's comments:

Explosion Strength - Were the ISC first introduced under the old explosion rules? I don't recall. But in any case, that doesn't explain the "echelon" per se. Under the old explosion rules all empires would tend to spread out their fleets. And the old explosion rules wouldn't explain the preponderance of small ships in a "classic" echelon, nor the fact that the small ships are invariably in front, with bigger ships to the rear.

Smaller ships to the front in order to protect the expensive PPD ships - But ultimately, those PPD ships have to go "in harms way" in order to be effective. Certainly there are times when you don't want the PPD ships in the front rank. But there are times when you do want them there. Keeping PPD ships a few hexes back protects them... for a while. But it may allow the enemy (depending on enemy fleet composition) to chew up a bunch of small ISC ships while staying outside the range at which the ISC can effectively hurt them. Consider a Fed force massing prox-fuzed photon torpedoes on a gunline ship from 30 hexes, then turning away to reload. The PPD ships don't do nearly as much damage in return, since they are firing in the 31-40 range bracket. So the ISC has a small ship crippled while a Fed ship gets the paint scratched. Rinse and repeat. Eventually the ISC may overhaul the Feds (how easy this is depends on the specific makeup of the Fed force) and the PPDs get in to effective range. But by the time this happens, several of the small ISC ships are already crippled (some may even have been destroyed) while the Fed fleet may not have suffered anything beyond shield damage. A hellbore-heavy Hydran fleet could start plinking away at the gunline ships from range-40, staying out of PPD range completely. "Soaking up weapons fire" to protect the big, expensive ships is all well and good. But at some point those big, expensive ships will have to put at risk in order to be effective. Why wait till your small ships have been gutted before doing this?

EW - None of the EW considerations Vandar mentions are specific to echelon tactics. Given the same ships, the ISC could make the same EW decisions regardless of the formation used. And if the "classic" gunline were replaced by a smaller number of (non-PPD) cruisers, they could play the EW game better anyway. Plus their Type-S torpedoes would be more effective against enemy ships trying to "dance" at 15 hexes from the gunline (and therefor beyond 15 hexes from the PPD ships).

Bottom Line: I think ultimately my primary complaint against "echelon tactics" (at least as presented) is that they are too rigid. The tactics seem to imply the ISC always uses a certain formation, even in circumstances when other formations might serve them better.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Wednesday, December 21, 2022 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Any tactic that is presented is going to (presumably) be good when it's applicable, and range anywhere from average to bad when it's not.

I don't think any fleet doctrine is "set in stone" to that degree. A smart admiral will always adjust to combat (as a bad one may not).

The "wide" echelon is very difficult to maneuver but it is good in an environment with big explosions as stated before. But it still serves its purpose quite well in small (2 or 3) stacks on a "modern" battlefield.

Most PPD ships (depending on the opposition) can actually be pretty effective with PPDs and Pl-S several hexes back from the little guys, which forces the opposition to either 1) pick off little guys, 2) go for bigger guys but outside optimal range, 3) close in to get optimal range on the big guys but then the little guys are closer.

Also, as presented, the rear-Fs are always talked about as a thing to use if the enemy pushes _past_ the gunline, but that almost never happens. However, when you break off they provide cover. Your gunline stack turns outside and flings their rear-Fs if the enemy gets a little too close.

Finally, another thing I'll add just as a tip for anyone wanting to try it out sometime, maneuvering has been mentioned a couple of times. I recommend that your protected echelon ships plot slightly faster speed and use slips to artificially slow down to stay at whatever range you want, but with the ability to make up for a turn or get closer if the tactical situation warrants.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, December 21, 2022 - 08:35 pm: Edit

In my above post one of the things, I was pointing out was the cost of the PPD armed cruisers.

The ISC flagship CC. is 220 BPV(230 with sabot) Y170-Y178 208 BPV (partial F refit for whatever)

The ISC star cruiser 185 BPV(195 with sabot) Y170-y178 173 BPV

Looking at Plasma Races.
Gorn CC is 164 BPV w all refits. The BC is 160 BPV

The Romulan Super hawk ships are •••• near the same cost as the ISC. They are classified as BCH so one per fleet. This is per S8. While the Fire Hawks sit around 174 to 180 BPV or so. So close to the Star cruiser in cost.

That means I could be wrong in the need to buy DDs and FFs to bring down cost of force to match.

I like to buy ships in squadron strength. Around 3 or 4 ships. With plasma I prefer Old Rom ships. KE and WE style ships.

I like to use 2KE 2 BH at 450 BPV. Add a WH and use 1 BH as escort and can reach 550 with COs. 2 Plas R 4 plas G (and with the WH 5 plas F) can also use a falcon but that slows down the squadron.

In every case however 550 seems to be a well-used number for a battle force ( as in Cap logs)

Trying to think what kind of force to use as ISC.

1 Max number of PPDs? (good or bad)
2 Need for heavy torps to force ships away so the PPDs can be rearmed?
3 Cost of force?

The ISC CL is 145 BPV 137 BPV Y170 -Y178.

Y170-Y178 CC 208 BPV 2 CL 274 BPV (137 BPV each)482 total. Within the 550 costs. 2 PPD 6 plas S 20 phaser1.

I do think that 2 CA and a CL would be legal as well flag ship PPDs plus 1 PPD per partial 3 ship group. In fact, CC, CA and CL would be legal, I think.

Those forces could operate more like other plasma races.

So, any ideas on that bit?