Uhmm still I would think they would have added a couple of AWR or just make it 8AWR. Ah well could not find anything either. The battle I am fighting has 6 ground based heavy weapons. They must be destroyed on Torp hits. I get 6 QWTs on a planet with a atmosphere. Best guess is launch turn 1. On turn 2 they exit atmosphere and move normally. losing 5 points of movement.

That would give overloads only 9 moves. Not so good any way, If they are based on asteroids would be better and overloads very useful

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, December 24, 2022 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Convince SPP that the GBQWT should have the AWR refit.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, December 24, 2022 - 11:08 pm: Edit

The R sections for the ISC in the older books leave some things vague. I've got a couple of questions.

1. What year does the ISC CAT in R9 become eligible for the plasma F refit? Note that the sister ship (the CA) gets it in Y171.

2. Are there early refit CAs with more than one plasma-F per side?

3. Is this different for CATs?

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 09:04 am: Edit

The YIS for the CAT is Y175, it comes with the F-refit.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 09:47 am: Edit

Module R9 shows a YIS of 165, the R9 SSD shows an arbitrary date of Y175 in the Crawford box.

The F&E SIT shows Y165.

Module G3 shows a YIS of 168, but there was a question posted asking if this is correct.

There have been a few questions asked on the CAT over the years but no official answers.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 10:31 am: Edit

R9 seems to have been tossed together fairly quickly and is in desperate need of a rewrite. Or a master starship book... Pretty please? :D

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Hrmmm.... I must admit I just looked at the Crawford box.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 06:57 pm: Edit

My R13.R2 section states that the rear firing F torps were added fleetwide between 179-181, and per the default assumptions of S8.0 that makes the SSDs listing "before Y179" on all SSDs correct as date where that refit would be assumed. It goes on to state, "Some of these weapons were added as early as Y171 in response to advanced fighters." Which to me, suggests that in any battle set in Y171 to Y178 you can include or exclude the rear plasma refit on any ship at your preference, regardless of ship type (so, including the CAT). Also, for CAs and CLs, one each side is also an option, within the same year range of Y171 to Y178. I assume there are (a few) CAs or CLs that got 1 each side that made it all the way to Y179 before having the rest added, meaning I think that's a valid option even in Y178. I also assume that it's valid to find (a few) CLs or CAs in Y171 with all of the Fs. Since only the CA and CL are mentioned for singles, I would assume that any CAT encountered Y171-Y178 would either have all or none of the Fs.

Is there additional R13 data somewhere that I missed that modifies or clarifies that somewhere?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, December 25, 2022 - 07:36 pm: Edit

There isn't. But you can't just assume a blanket of Y171. For example the DN doesn't start getting it until much later. There's another ship whose name escapes me that gets it in the mid-170s.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 12:11 am: Edit

I'm not assuming a blanket of Y171. I just looked at R13.R and it does not list different years for different ships. It just says (directly quoted) "Some of theses weapons were added as early as Y171" with no qualifications of any kind for ships. So per R13.R, any ISC ship in service and in a battle anywhere in Y171-Y178 range might have the refit.

You said "There isn't" which I take as a response to my question if this is clarified somewhere, yet you say the DN doesn't start getting it until much later. Those are contradictory statements because either there isn't any clarification, and any ship could have it as early as Y171 per R13.R, or there _is_ some clarification somewhere that says the DN doesn't get it until some later date. Can you please elaborate on that (apparent) contradiction?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 12:47 am: Edit

"Some of these weapons were added as early as Y171." You appear to be assuming that means "to any ship capable of receiving the refit." You can't assume that. Some universally

Likewise it is clearly not the case because the DN itself says it doesn't get them until later. There are others with different dates as well. In other words it's clarified but not for all ships. For example the Cat does not mention a year at all, including the SSD.

What I would like is either a) a chart showing when the ships get them or failing that b) rules for the ships which say nothing.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 03:30 am: Edit

I'm not assuming, I'm simply quoting what is written. Some ships got them as early as Y171, and in the Y179-Y181 _all_ ships received them. This means that in a patrol scenario in Y179 or later, you must include the rear plasma on ALL ISC ships unless you specifically ask permission from your opponent. In any scenario Y171-Y178 they are available but optional. I gave the Klingon K refits for another similar example. This is just how it works.

Now, that said, specific trumps general. So if a specific ship was printed that said, "This ship never received the rear plasma refits before Y174." Or something like that, obviously that's meant to specifically differentiate that ship from the "general" rule of Y171.

I just looked again at both the SSD and the R entry for the ISC DN. There is no mention of it getting those refits later or earlier, it lists the (normal) Y179 year of fleet adoption for the refit on the SSD, and makes no mention of the rear plasma refits in the R entry. So I don't even know why you would think it would be any different.

As far as I can tell, ISC DNs fall into the same year ranges for rear plasma refits as any other ship.

If you can point me at a source anywhere that would suggest the DN is special, I would love to know where that is, because it's not in the R section where I would expect to find that info.

Anyone else want to chime in? Am I missing something?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 10:25 am: Edit

The DN in the C2 pdf has the newer format for ship descriptions and includes a refits section. That section specifies the earliest year for those refits.

---

Quote:

Refits: This ship included the phaser-3 and plasma-S refits. The
plasma-F refit was installed beginning in Y179 and was universal by
Y182. The sabot refit was installed on all dreadnoughts in Y180.

---

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Ah interesting. I have C2 in print but not pdf, and it does not include that information. Given that they have chosen to revise when different ships received various refits, a reference that breaks that down better would certainly help. Without that (with just the information I have) it's quite simple and doesn't really need any additional reference.

Just guessing, but maybe since the ISC aren't historically involved until Y185 or so the powers that be decided it wasn't worth a lot of effort for an edge case?

Sounds like you're stuck referencing each ship to make any refit decisions if you're in the '70s. Or you could do what I fully intend to do: pretend the pdf revisions don't exist

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 04:40 pm: Edit

I'll use the revisions. I don't have the non-pdf so it would confuse me more to ignore what I've got. Now if they'd just update the rest of the ISC ships...

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Well, general still applies when specific doesn't exist.

So, "in general" any ISC ship _might_ have the rear plasma refit anytime between Y171 and Y178.

If the R entry in the C2 pdf lists a specific year as the first year that ship received it that _isn't_ Y171, that applies because it's ship specific which is more specific than empire-wide, but if there is no date listed, the general rule of Y171 would be correct.

My recommendation, if it is your intention to play a bunch of ISC battles in the '70s, would be to go through the R section in C2, and make a spreadsheet that lists the year for each ship's earliest possible date for the refit, BPVs with and without, and a page reference for the R section and a page reference in the SSD book.

That will make putting together battle forces a snap, as everything you need will be right there.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, December 26, 2022 - 07:41 pm: Edit

"Thankfully" there are so few decent ISC ships that early on that I can keep the spreadsheet in my head. For the most part you only have the most basic designs available to build.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 09:49 am: Edit

My ISC ships just happen to be the ones that "got" those refits.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 12:58 pm: Edit

And then there's company history which potentially impacts game history. The ISC was introduced in SFB Commander's Rulebook Volume III in 1985. At the time, all ships included the defensive plasma-F torpedoes (though that book's R13.72 does provide for a hypothetical refit for those wanting to experiment with earlier ISC ships). Interestingly, the similarly purposed Plasma D rack didn't arise until Commander's Rulebook Update #2 in 1988. I've always wondered if the ISC ships would have been equipped with rear-firing plasma D racks if the plasma D rack had existed at the time of their introduction.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 05:39 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I've always wondered if the ISC ships would have been equipped with rear-firing plasma D racks if the plasma D rack had existed at the time of their introduction.

---

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 06:19 pm: Edit

From the archives Department:

Many, many years ago, when the BBS users almost universally waited until after 5pm for the GEnie rates to drop down, I remember there was talk about an Orion ship that could function as a “proto PFT” (my words) consisting of a mother ship (type unknown) hauling a number of Light Raider hulls on docking points that acted for all intents and purposes as Mech-Tractor Links for PFs.

I no longer remember which Orion ship was the mothership(s) in this scheme, nor of the rules surrounding it. I was fascinated at the idea though.

What I do remember the discussion from that era saying that the use case outline had been invalidated or made obsolete by Captains Module K (details fuzzy).

Anyone remember which Orion ship or ships these were that could do that, and what product the rules would be found in?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Imma gonna guess that was likely a Salvage Cruiser carrying two Light Raiders, one under each wing.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Mike, I recall an offhand comment specifically to that regard back in the Commander's Edition days.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 08:05 pm: Edit

The Plasma-Ds were originally alternate refits in Commander's Edition for the Gorn, Romulan, and ISC. The ISC could replace some of their rear Plasma-Fs with Plasma-Ds. The refits were removed from Captain's Edition.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, December 27, 2022 - 08:44 pm: Edit

SFB Commander's Rulebook Volume III allows the Salvage Cruiser (R8.4) to "dock two LR's externally, one on each wing, essentially the same manner as a PF; the LRs are treated as PFs would be when docked except as noted here. The link requires one tractor beam, but an LR on the mech link blocks both tractor beams. The movement cost of the ship is increased to 1.0 when carrying one or two LRs. These ships cannot be docked internally or repaired."

Commander's Update #2 goes on to say: "The LRs themselves cannot carry PFs. When carrying LRs, the ship's acceleration is limited to 6 or double the current speed."