Archive through December 29, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
STRANGE PLACES:
Federation as an Alliance:
Archive through December 29, 2022
In the "W" era, the races that were putting the Federation together had their national fleets. In Canon history, almost all the ships were scrapped LONG before the General War; the only exceptions being a few non-functioning museum pieces (presumably) and, of course, the legendary Terran CL survived as the classic OCL.
What if that wasn't the case.
What if, the Federation, like the NATO alliance here on Earth, opted to keep their forces largely nationalized but (reluctantly, perhaps?) had a percentage assigned to work under a Federation-wide command.
Would the Andorians continue to build ships that didn't use Photon Torpedoes and instead relied on drones and Phasers? I'd like to think so (Besides, I've always wanted to play something akin to a Kzinti Frigate with full refits, but which replaced its Disruptor with a second Ph-1 FA).
(Ahem...)
Among the other races, in the Y-series, the Rigellians in the "W" era all had cargo, even when the awkwardness led to their ships having mutually exclusive Phaser arcs. Would they continue to do so? Perhaps.
I can also imagine the always practical Alpha-Centauri as being the folks who convinced BuShips in Canon history to make use of the standardized components (how similar DD, CA, and Tug saucers were and the ubiquitous fifteen box Warp engines) and, as such, building ships that made use of the same sort of standardized components; almost a sort of "Federation equivalent to the Superhawk/Firehawk/Sparrowhawk/Skyhawk common engine" idea.
(Okay, I apologize for how awkward that sounds. I'm behind on my sleep and running on enthusiasm and adrenaline right now, so i'm not going to be 100% coherent. 
)
Two of the Terran ships are really what inspiried me in this area; their CA and FF. The Phaser arcs for the WCA, two each FA+L and FA+R, plus one each RA+L and RA+R, speak of Oblique Attacks; something that would give them, if they were upgraded to GW era standards, a whole different dynamic when facing the Klingon D7, and I would hope I'm not alone in being excited about that sort of dynamic.
The FF is Nimble (even if the Leader version isn't). Literally EVERY time I look at the WFF SSD (although as a "Terran" ship, I invariably end up calling it the "WTF") my (alleged) mind repositions the LS/RS Ph-2 to FA.
With the Terran DD becoming the basis for the Police Cutter, I can imagine the Terran FF becoming the basis for a "Fast Attack Frigate." I'm imagining it armed with a single Photon Torpedo (FA), two Ph-1s (also FA), a third Ph-1 (360), and perhaps a pair of Ph-3 (LS/RS) on a refit. It might not have much HULL, but I'm also imagining the WARP engine being doubled (two Warp engines with six boxes each).
While not a true "Fast Ship" (although even that idea has merit ), its low armament energy cost and good Warp energy supply would make it a pretty quick vessel. Also, I think if it had a REALLY good turn mode, I'm picturing it keeping the "Turn Mode A, Nimble," it may make for a fun "Little" ship for some players.
Those are some of my thoughts. Does this sound like something potentially interesting? I'd like to hear (okay, read) your thoughts on this.
Oh! Jeez! Can't believe I missed this!
Top question I expect would be "Well, why DIDN'T they build any of the Canon 'National Ships?'"
Good question.
The PSB answer could be that, when the first ones (YCA, etc.) were first being tested, they were made with all new technologies and had LOADS of teething problems. Meanwhile, as was shown with the conversion of the Terran WCL to YCL, adapting new systems onto mature frames was often done with much fewer problems.
In Y2, the history of the Terran WCA said that its conversion to early tactical warp power was difficult and the shp had tons of problems. WHAT IF, once the problems were ironed out with the "W" conversions, the "Y" conversions were extremely simple because all the bugs had already been worked out?
WHAT IF the success with the Terran cruiser conversion to the fantastically high-tech "Y" era technology paved the way for similar fast/easy conversions to the new super high-tech systems for the Terrans allies, and as a result of this easy conversion, the troublesome "National" fleet ships, with all the other problems, ended up being regarded as "White Elephants?"
Anyhow, again, I'm interested on what y'all might think.
I am not interested in this.
I would think the advent of "Shields" would have made individual fleets difficult, considering the work needed to make them work for different hull types/sizes....
Good question, Mark, but that's been taken care of already with the "National W-Era Ships" in the existing Y modules. Most W-era ships have some armor, but even for those, each of the six shields are equal to, if not stronger, than the underlying armor bank.
Richard, thank you for your honesty.
I am going to jump in. The problem with such fleets is logistics. These ships use drones lots of them. Others use photons. Some use some other weapons. That can be a nightmare.
The other is working together in a battle. Some ship weapons combos are great. Others just plan suck. Try playing old War eagle Roms and Klingons together.
Logistics are really going to come into play more with repairs. A lot (and I mean really a lot) of components will normalize pretty fast in that environment. Drones are already hand-waved to be the same across all empires, and most of the weapon differences would be energy based probably. You could pretty easily just say "everyone uses Drones and some use Photons, and everything else is energy" and most of your "ammunition" logistics are covered. But repair parts is a whole other thing. Starbases and other repair facilities would start to look like auto parts stores, with huge warehouses full of a wild assortment of parts.
From a more meta practical standpoint, I really like the idea of this "what if" you had all these different ships with different strengths and weaknesses, but _functionally_ what you're doing is adding a bunch of new races to SFB, with the added "problem" of now the Federation is nearly impossible to plan against in a BPV patrol scenario. Not saying that it can't be done (and I would love to see it) but you're talking about a real challenge.
Excellent points, Vandar. Respectfully, though, how much more are the potential differences between "Alliance/Federation" ships and the already existing differences between ships in each empire? I mean, how differently do Federation FF, DD, and DDGs fly?
As far as repair/resupply logistics goes, again, I say this respectfully, it's kinda outside what's in SFB. However, in reality, you're very correct about that. Would it make for a funny fiction scene? "Whaddaya mean alls we's gots is AE2212s? Deez ain'ts Alpha-Centauri ships! We's gotta get the RE2212s! Dees are Rigellian ships!!"
Jamey, I've occasionally asked the question, "What sort of differences are there between a Federation SIM-9T Spacewinder and the Klingon SS-2E Asteroid?" (AIM-9 Sidewinder and AA-2 Atoll? )
Also, your point about "Adding a bunch of new races to SFB" is actually what this is about. New races making use of old systems can add a new freshness to maneuver tactics because of the slight differences between these new ships and classics we've perfected tactics with. Some folks (like me) see that as a good thing, others may not, which is okay.
Jeff,
Oh yeah the adding more races part wasn't exactly the "issue" I was pointing out. Plenty of races have been added before.
But if we add several races rolled up into one galactic power (Federation), I was pointing out that now if you're doing a fleet battle, especially a patrol, you now have added massive flexibility/variation/unpredictability to one group.
As I said, would love to see it, just pointing out a meta logistical concern.
In the Federation as Alliance alternate timeline it would be easy enough to declare that every Fed force for a patrol battle consists almost entirely of ships from the same component as the admiral in command.
Alpha Centauri admirals have Alpha Centauri warships, plus a Vulcan scout and maybe one other allied ship.
Terran admirals have Terran warships, plus a Vulcan scout and maybe one other allied ship.
Similar to Orion cartels, you don't run a patrol against "the Federation" you run a patrol battle against an Alpha Centauri admiral who gets to buy a Vulcan scout, but is otherwise very limited in allied ships.
It's not an entirely implausible scenario (the logistical nightmare notwithstanding). There was a fair lot of contentious debate during the drafting of the Articles of Federation, and inclusion of "a Star Fleet combined peace-keeping force" was not least among the controversial topics. Likewise, there was opposition to the Federation Defense Act of Y113; had former Chairman Isenhavel not provided crucial public support, it is entirely possible that Chairman Rustvem would not have been able to pass the legislation that reduced the various non-Starfleet factional forces to "Guard" status. A failure at either point could have left the Federation dependent upon joint operations of various national fleets.
I was thinking the same thing, Douglas, but with one difference.
Yes, during the Early Years, the Vulcans were the only folks out there with mobile units with Special Sensors. However, by the GW era, they were common. As such, everyone, including the various races that compose the Alliance, would have their own scouts.
Among us, I'm VERY glad the whole potential problem with logistics was brought up; it's something I never considered, but it is VERY important.
My thoughts about that, though, are that when the Alliance or Coalition engaged in their operations, as allied races, they would have the same sort of complication with logistics that's been discussed here, so I don't know how much of an impact (but admittedly there will be some) that might have here.
Of course, it does bring up the potential situation of having multiple MB along an offense into (say) Klingon space, and when one of them gets wiped out, the Rigellians/Andorians/Terrans or whomever find themselves out of supplies and it cuts "Federation" involvement by about 20%...
(...Whereas in Canon it might cut Federation involvement by far more? I don't know...)
Ginger? Your thoughts pose a potential for various component peoples on opposite sides of scenarios. Makes me think about the oxymoron rule; "Non-Violent Combat"
My 0.002 Quatloos worth, I'm enjoying this discussion!
Jeff, by the general war era, everyone COULD build scouts, but a Vulcan planetary fleet would still likely be nothing but scouts and survey ships (which means in a major war they're pure support and pretty well always get added to other fleets).
And the Vulcan's might well still be the best at building scouts, they got the tech early, and they put a lot of emphasis on it.
I could easily see everyone else saying, "Sure, we COULD do a half-assed job like every other empire in the galaxy, but we've got the premier specialists at this role offering to do it for us for free, let's build another carrier instead", I suspect that in Federation as an alliance, there's nothing bigger than a frigate based scout built by any Fed race but the Vulcans and that any major battle fleet still has a Vulcan scout.
Yeah I think in the event of the General War, you would _occasionally_ like capital assaults maybe see massive numbers of one sub-empire's ships in a battle, but in field operations you'd end up with mixed fleets with _way_ different fleet doctrines.
Idealized, maybe you'd see a few armored, smaller Andorian ships bristling with phasers a little closer to the enemy screening Human cruisers with photons all covered by a Vulcan scout that has no heavy weapons at all, just special sensors and lots of APR, maybe couple of phasers.
Douglas, the Vulcans did have Photon Torpedo armed ships back in the W-era (WVL; YR2.32 and WVF; YR2.33 come to mind) so they'd likely have non-Scout/Survey ships in the GW era, BUT the potential for Vulcan Scouts and Survey vessels with FAR more Special Sensors and Lab than similar vessels used by their allies (Federation member races) is one of those things that speaks of the differences between these "New" races.
Jamey, the idea of the different races making use of different sized ships is another good one (IMO).
Your specific idea of "Armored, smaller Andorian ships bristling with Phasers" is another exciting one. In the Early Years, the Andorians alone among the Federation member races made use of Drones. I can imagine Andorian ships with fewer Photon Torpedoes BUT with Drone Racks equal to the Kzinti (and possibly a plethora of smaller phasers as well).
Meanwhile, someone else, like maybe the Rigellians, have ships with a smaller number of Drone Racks but more Photon Torpedoes and/or heavier Phasers (perhaps even Ph-2s?), kind of like a parallel to the Klingon ratios.
The concept of providing "modern" (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12) ships for the various Federation (and, for that matter, Inter-Stellar Concordium) planetary fleets has been posted on the BBS at various points in time. In principle, once more is known about the "Early Years" Mæsron Alliance, one could also consider what kind of ships the Tazol, Wallimi, and Vulpa might have built had the "unified" Mæsron designs never existed.
However, there are two issues at play. On the one hand, what is there to make the "planetary" fleets distinct enough from one another on the tabletop to make them worth playing at the tactical scale? And on the other hand, as noted above, what is the logistical burden that such variety brings to the operational and strategic side of things, as opposed to the "unified" hulls used by the Federation, ISC, and Mæsrons in the historical timeline?
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At least in the case of the five ISC planets, their "planetary" ships have distinct heavy weapon types. So, if the "two-prong" and "three-prong" ships of the unified Navy and Police were never brought into being, there would be grounds for developing "modern" versions of these five weapons - and, perhaps, for making them available for Orion pirates operating in ISC space.
Further, it's possible to consider dividing the "on-map" ISC territory into five "slices", as had been assigned by treaty after the wars of the Resource Worlds came to an end, but before the creation of the Concordium itself led to a more unified approach to exploration and colonization. Which might make things interesting over in a "Mapsheet P" timeline; certain species might find themselves facing the "lost empire" Paravians, while others would be confronted by the "Shadow of the Eagle" Romulans.
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By contrast, things are a lot less clear-cut in Federation space.
As mentioned above, only the Andorians are noted as not using photon torpedoes on their "National Guard" ships. Most of the other planetary fleets settled upon the photon torpedo as their heavy weapon of choice - which I suppose is less of a logistical burden than the five ISC species would face, at least.
However, unlike the five ISC species, the Federation cannot so easily be carved up into "Terran", "Vulcan", "Andorian", or other spheres of influence. With the exception of the Orion Enclave, there is no "on-map" province which is the exclusive holding of a single member species - to include Orion colonies founded under the Federation's rules for colonization outside of the Enclave proper.
Further, one of the key political drivers behind the establishment of a unified Star Fleet in the first place was to for the other planets to try and rein in the Terrans - or rather, to channel the Terran military-industrial complex along a path which could be shared by the other member worlds. (Sure, the Veltressai are described as being the "leaders" of the ISC - but the balance of power between them and the other four ISC species is nowhere near a lopsided as it is between the Terrans and everyone else in UFP space.)
To put it another way: had the "saucer-and-nacelle" designs of a unified Star Fleet never existed, the Federation would have an overwhelmingly large and powerful Terran fleet - perhaps the only one with a "full" array of hull types and mission variants - and a smaller and less capable variety of fleets belonging to the other planets. Especially once the Vulcans lose their technological edge in the Y120s, what is to stop the Federation from turning even more into a de facto "Terran empire" than it already is historically?
Now, if course, this could be considered as par for the course in an alternate timeline such as this one: as in, the Federation fleet becomes a primarily Terran fleet, with the other planets doing the best they can with the resources they have (plus whatever funds the Terrans "donate" to the common treasury for the sake of political unity). The trick would be in trying to determine which member planet gets which amount of EPs per F&E turn, as well as to decide what each member world's shipyard capacity (and production schedule) would be based on this.
A lot of that feels like F&E and I put forth this proposal for SFB. While I have the (basic) F&E rules, I haven't played it, so trying to address those questions is kinda out of my league.
In answer to one of the big questions, though, namely if the Alliance ships are all "Phasers, Photons, and Drones," what're the differences? The differences are much like the differences between Klingons, Kzinti, most WYN, and a good chunk of the Orions; different ratios of Photons, Phasers, and Drones, and different turn modes, speeds, and power ratios.
One thing I mentioned when I first brought up this bit of insanity is the potential for the Terrans to have updated their Frigate into something less kaboomey. Tentative stats are something like...
... One Photon Torpedo FA
... Two Phaser-1 FA, one Phaser-1 360, one Phaser-3 LS, and one Phaser-3 RS
... Drones: None
... Turn Mode: A, Nimble.
... Movement cost: 1/3
... Two WARP (L. Warp and R. Warp); six boxes each.
... Shields 20-18-16-16
Imagine a squadron of them. Maybe not that hard hitting, but still something pretty good.
Now, for contrast, say there's an Alpha-Centauri Frigate (or squadron nearby). Their tentative stats are with...
... TWO Photon Torpedoes FA
... Four Phaser-1; one each FA+L, FA+R, RA+L, RA+R. No Ph-3
... One Type-A Drone Rack (upgraded to Type-G on refit?)
... Turn Mode: C NOT Nimble.
... Movement Cost: 1/3
... Single Warp engine (C. Warp) with twelve boxes
... Shields: 20-18-18-18.
A totally different ship. It would fly totally different. It would fight enemies (Klingon, Romulan, Orion, possibly Kzinti or Gorn) totally different.
Those are just one example of how different the various Alliance members might be, and what I was hoping to generate some interest in.
The weapons are too similar imo. Phontons and phaser ones, backed up by phaser 3s or a drone rack.
That's more or less what Feds _already_ have.
Yes, turn mode is different. It still seems kind of pointless to me.
This idea needs more variance between fleets, which I don't see happening when essentially all the factions use more or less the same weapons.
That difference is what causes arms races to form ... unless the Terran production was that superior ...
Well, Richard, the two Frigates cited were just one example of some of the potential differences. Off the top of my head, a few other possibilities could be...
WHAT IF the Andorians had a Drone capacity similar to the Kzinti, but precious few phasers of ANY type, and, as such, had to rely on their Drones for so much more both offensively and defensively?
WHAT IF the Alpha-Centauri ships, as a compensation for poorer maneuverability, were ALL built with equal Phaser capacity in all directions (like the Gorn BC)?
WHAT IF the Cygnans, who in Canon SFB had different fighters than the other Federation races, made use of Hydran-esque Hybrid Carriers for almost all of their ships?
WHAT IF the Rigellians, whose ships still ALL have Cargo facilities, were to make use of ships that were unbelievably tough, but turn like a cast-iron bathtub?
WHAT IF the Vulcans saw nearly excessive levels of power as something logical for ships to have and (again, logically) built their ships with high quantities of APR/AWR and larger Phaser arrays?
IMO, these sorts of variations can be as great, if not greater, than the differences between existing Klingon and Kzinti fleets, and that sort of difference may be fun for some players. Not everyone, but then I'm sure that, for every element in the game, there's SOMEone out there who doesn't like it...
Good point, Stewart. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you, but your post reads to me like your perceiving these folks as being in competition with each other, not as allies.
HOWEVER, as yet another alternative to this universe...
WHAT IF the peoples who, in the Canon universe became the Federation, didn't organize themselves due to the Vulcans being the "Warlike Vulcans" from one of the Alternative Romulan Universes (in Module R4J)?
Perhaps in this alternate universe, Alpha-Centaurii (for example) supported the "Logical Romulans" while Terrans worked alongside the "Warlike Vulcans?"
(Maybe I'd better quit before I get fitted for a straitjacket...)
(... Again...)
(rummaging in a clothing bin/laundry cart.)
We have eight straight jackets in JGA size.
One standard color that we last used for Loren Knight when the curved struts on the U.S.S. Enterprise in that star Trek movie came out. (For his own protection!)
Then there are the matched set straight jackets for the mirror universe/prime universe versions of George Ebersole during the cross over game day events celebrating 25 years of Star Fleet Battles.
I have absolutely no idea where the sequined/rhine stone straight Jacket with the bling bling slogan saying “Best F&E player EVER!!!” Came from, it just showed up in agonizer booth#4 a few years ago, and no one ever claimed it from lost and found.
There are several camo style jackets, jungle, winter/artic, desert and one psychedelic/pink set that never been used. Some good samaritan purchased it incase we pushed Jean over the edge of sanity.
That one has velcro straps.
Should we vote on which is most appropriate for Jga?
Grin.
No one wants to think they have the 'worst type of ship' even among allies, and will work either a refit or new class to try and balance that (or up the production numbers so that they use quantity in place of quality) ...
I can't really disagree, Stewart, but I also have to ask, "How would you define 'Worst?'"
Side by side... Kzinti FF, Klingon E4, and WYN AuxC in Standard Configuration. Which one is "Worst?"
I can't answer that. Each one has its strong points and its weak points.
Between the two I put some detail on, does the superior maneuverability of the Terran Frigate make it "Better" than the Alpha-Centauri, or is the Alpha-Centauri Frigate "Better" because it has greater forward Photon firepower, tougher rear shields, and more omnidirectional firepower?
For convoy defense, I'd say the Alpha-Centauri one is better, but the Terran one is better for attacking convoys.
Similarly, the Alpha-Centauri Frigate would stand better in battle line picket duty where the Terran Frigate would be better for periphery attacks.
In my opinion, at any rate. Still, it's a good debate to have.
Fellow Jeff, I already have my own. It chimes like a Swiss clock whenever the lanyard tying the arms together gets pulled. :