Madman and Kingzila planning to play 2/9/23 Thursday night at unknown time

Orion vs Fed

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 08:43 am: Edit

Madman and Kingzila planning to play 2/9/23 Thursday night at 6pm eastern

Orion vs Fed

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Kingzila over Madman in a quick turn.

I had no plan other than hoping he missed with 2 or 3 photons at range 4. He hit with 3, I resigned impulse 32, T1.

Good luck to both of them in the final.

Dana

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Seth and I finished up tonight. I came out on top.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 08:06 am: Edit

Congrats Ron!

A vague writeup in the offing?

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Sapphire Crown Final: B1 Shark vs Fed.
Turn 1) Fed plotted 17/26 (19 moves) held a WW, 14 into Photons and 4 HK. Shark Plotted 14/27/20 (24 moves) held 2 SS, 8 into Disrupters and 4 HK. My plan was to hit Seth's #1 and then ver off and set up for a turn 2 exchange. Seth turned his #2 towards me before we hit range 15. I could have, and probably should have shot his #2 and set up for turn 2. Seth turned toward me after he was out of my FA. I foolishly then turned in at speed 27 to shoot his #1. Doing 6 damage. Seth then used bats to speed up to 31. He could now get to R5 by EOT. I thought to HET but I can not at speed 27. So I put 1 bat into speed to go 26 instead of 20 for the last 5 Imps and launched 3 drones. Seth got to R7 off my #3 shield with drones 4 hexes away. If Seth continued to close, the drones would jump R3. Making it harder for the G-rack to deal with. Seth fired 4 OL photons and 6 P-1s at my ship and then slipped away. Killing the drones with 3 add shots. Only 1 photon hit and the phasers did 15. I put my 4 bats into the shield and took 3 Int. All Rear hull.

Turn 2) Seth went 24/26 (25 moves) Started arming photons, and held a WW. I plotted 28/20/29 (27 moves) Recharged batteries and held 2 SS. Seth ran and I chased. Imps 29 I reached R5 centerline on Seth's #3. I launched 3 drones and fired 7 P-1s. I rolled a little above average and took down the shield plus 4 Int. 3 hull and a P-3. Imps 32 I could slip to R5 on Seth's #3 or go to R4 on the 2/3 spine. I decided to go to R4. I thought about firing 1 OL with batteries but realized Seth could choose to take damage on his #2.

Turn 3) Seth parked, finished OLing all 4 photons, held a Ww, 1 in Tractor, 1 tac, and reloaded phaser cap and batteries. (Not sure on all of this. Just my best guess) I plotted 16/8/4 (6 moves) so I could shoot his #3 on Imps 1. I OLed my disruptors, 6 in tractor, 4 in phaser cap and held 2 SS. Imps 1 Seth launches his WW. I hold fire and slowly move in. I use 3 batteries to change my speed plot to 16/8 (9 moves) Before my drones hit the WW I drop control. Seth has Tacced so I am facing his #2. I get to R1 #2 to #2 with Seth's WW 1 hex straight in front of his ship. I launch 3 drones (both heavies) at his ship to discourage firing under passive. Imps 10 the drones move into Seth's hex. Seth then announces a SC to 3. (batteries?) I launch both SS's out of my #3 shield. I fire my OLs and FA/L P-1s at Seth. Hit with only 1 disruptor through the shift and add 8 with phasers. Imps 11 Seth moves forward so we are now #3 to #3 (both down) Seth's WW moves forward and my 2 SS move into Seth's hex on his #3. I put my last 2 batteries into my phaser cap and fired 3 P-1s and 7 P-3s at the down shield. I did 34 after the shift. Seth put what I believe to be his last 2 batteries into general and took 33 int. I netted the G-rack, 2 phasers, a lot of power, all 5 batteries, and fluff. So I still needed to stay out of his FA this turn. We both started launching all of our manned shuttles. They ended up shooting at each other leaving me with 1 shuttle with 3 damage and Seth with 2 shuttles on the map by EOT. My heavy drones killed the WW on Imps 15 but Seth had to wait to raise AFC until Imps 22 when my SS's hit the WW hex. At this point we were R3 and Seth fired 6 P-1s at my down #3 under passive. Rolled poorly for 5 points. R-warp, L-warp, and 3 forward hull.

TBC (I have to head to work)

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 08:08 pm: Edit

I have to go back a bit. Before Seth fired his P-1s at me, I managed to grab him with a tractor. This was going to allow me to turn back at him without getting in his FA. Imps 24, now at speed 4, I turned after 1 move. I then dropped the tractor and on Imps 28 slipped behind Seth at R2. We both moved on imps 32 and ended the turn at R2. My #6 facing Seth's #4. My damaged shuttle was in the hex between us and Seth's shuttles were 2 and 3 hexes away on my #5.

Turn 4) We both parked. Seth plotted a HET and put 8 points into his #4. I plotted 3 tacs, OLed disrupters, recharged phasers, 2 in tractor, .5 in transporters, and 1 point into batteries. Imps 1 I launch 3 drones, Fire disrupters, 6 p-1s, and 5 p-3s from ship. Plus p-3 from R1 shuttle. Seth fired 2 P-1s at drone and a P-3 to AK my shuttle. Seth kills 1 drone, but only does 3 damage to the other. I hit with 3 disrupters and add 44 with phasers. 36 internals after reinforcement. This left Seth with 2 photons and 3 P-1s. Imps 2 Seth HETS to face me. He fires a shuttle p-3 at the damaged drone and a P-1 at the other to AK both. Seth fired 2 photons and 2 P-1s at my ship. Netting 11 internals. I lost 2 p-3s and some power. Seth then conceded.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Congrats Ron

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, February 11, 2023 - 12:40 pm: Edit

I watched the match and Ron played great and deserved to win. Congratulations Ron!

Seth played Fed and mostly missed in his first shot. Even if he hits with 2 where he fired I am not convinced Seth was going to survive it, but he is great, so maybe. On the other hand Ron loses t1 at range 8 if 3 hit.

It really is too bad that probably 95% of the time you could predict the winner of a game by rolling 4 photon dice and see how many are 3 or less before ever allocating T1. Strategy and tactics don't matter at all. You could just roll those dice, call it a day, and go drink. For me, this is the largest weakness of the whole game system based on Star Trek and Photon torpedoes.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 11:38 am: Edit

Jack brings up an interesting point. Would anyone be interested in playing some unofficial test games using average damage for all DF weapons instead of dice? As an example 16 point OL photons would auto hit at R8 for 8 points each. It would take a bit of math and some rules for rounding but it would make the game completely about strategy and tactics.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 09:30 am: Edit

That seems to make photons really powerful. A guaranteed 32 damage basically means guaranteed internals if you make it to range 8. It takes away the ability of disruptor ships to dip into 8 for their own overloads while maneuvering to avoid range 4.

Then again it also means that you absolutely have to fire 2 phaser 3s at a drone to kill it. And you're guaranteed a kill with a p1 and guaranteed to fail to kill with a p2. Unless we're rounding up, that is. If we are them type I drones cannot survive any R1 phaser shot. How would you do ADDs? I assume those would still be rolled for.

I'm nowhere near on par with the players here and won't be a good test player because of it. But I'm very interested to see results.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 02:03 pm: Edit

My thought was to round damage of 2/3 up and below 2/3 down by volley. So a single p-3 at r1 would kill a typeI drone. ADDs, PPDs, and maybe Helbores would still need to be rolled for. As far as photons go, sure you could fire 4 OLed photons and 6 p-1s at R8 and get 44 auto damage. What if the disrupter ship bricks and runs you down during reload turn? It would make positioning very important.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 06:01 pm: Edit

While I like the idea of reducing luck, I am not really complaining about the part luck plays in most tournament games and matchups. I know I complain a lot about my personal luck (as it honestly sucks), but fortunately bad luck ONCE is usually a game that can still be won. I have won a few of these tournaments even though at times my luck has been atrocious, so luck in tournaments overall can't be too impactful if somehow I can win one despite the energy I waste on heavy weapons.

The Fed ship however is an anomaly and that is because of the nature of the photon and the amount of damage they do. Ron played a fairly normal t1 and did light shield damage with standards while getting 3 drones out there. Seth lumbers up to range 7-8 rolls after Ron turns off. I would have rolled there. Everyone would have rolled there. And Ron is dead if 3 hit. And Seth (A great player) was absolutely crushed after only hitting with 1. Seth would have missed with 3 at range 4 too. It's not all dice in their game. Ron played like he needed to play in order to win despite Seth's poor roll- which he did, which all skilled players would have done. Ron played great.

The issue is the photon. It does too much damage on a lucky roll. And is too hard to rearm on a bad roll. For me, it remains a broken ship. I have been playing for 40 years and my 12 year old niece could beat me if I told her, "try for range 8 and hope you roll 1,2,3's". Fleet Captains and multi-aces should not be in a situation where they are booted out of a tournament because of 1 roll of 4 dice. Imagine playing for 40 years. Practicing every day. Every rule memorized with literally hundreds of wins under your belt. Now you travel 500 miles to Origins and get beat in 23 minutes by a lucky roll of 4 dice. That kind of happened to Dana, the best Orion currently playing. It was over in less than half an hour.

If it were my game system I would eliminate the Fed from tournaments for being too strong and too weak at the same time. I hate that- the Fed TC is the Enterprise to me. We need it but I hate fighting it and I would never fly it myself. I don't think I can get lucky 4 games in a row.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Has there ever been an attempt to build a better Fed TC? Would it be crazy to have a ship with 2 photons and 2 plasma F's? Or maybe a 3 photon, 2 drone rack ship? Anyone have any ideas?

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 06:38 pm: Edit

A few years back we toyed with a fast Fed. 3 photons, 8 P-1s, 4 p-3s, 1 G-rack, and 32 warp/40 power.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 06:40 pm: Edit

BTW, I just started this as an exercise. Bounce a few ideas around. I have no big complaints about the current system.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 11:05 am: Edit

Yeah, there are plenty of alternate Fed designs floating around--the Fast Fed that Ron mentioned has even been played in some live tournaments (although I think it was 3 photons, 7P1, 4P3, G rack?).

Someone suggested, at some point, replacing the 4x Photons with 8x Light Photons (exactly the same as regular photons, but half as big, so 1+1 to arm as 4 point standards, 2+2 to arm as 8 point overloads), and as a special tournament rule, every time it took a torp hit, blow up 2 of them, and you have to repair 2 at a time, and must fire them in pairs (so no increased mizia potential) so they are in all ways identical to having 4 standard photons (power to arm, potential max and min damage, ability to repair, whatever), except you get to roll 8 dice instead of 4 dice, and have the potential for more variable damage (i.e. 5 hits at R8 is 40 damage, 3 hits is 24), but with 8 dice, the damage will tend to be more average (i.e. you'll probably *never* completely whiff or jackpot, but will also usually hit about average).

Like, it is sort of a silly solution, but also probably a good one.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 11:14 am: Edit

I have always called it Photon Roulet. I have been on the receiving end of both die rolls. The Fed hitting with all 4 or even 3 out of four. As well as missing with them all or hitting with only 1.

The Fed tournament ship is not all about photons. It has 8 phaser-1s and now the G rack. The Fed is a good phaser boat. If you think the FED is too weak. Perhaps it is not. Maybe the newer ships like the Shark or to strong.

I like to play 3 or, maybe 4 ships per side. The Feds can then fire photons at longer ranges. A Fed CC and two CA firing 12 photons. More importantly each Fed has the G rack. A scatter pack shuttle plus drones from the launchers. Will force the other ships to turn off or waste a lot of phasers and power going thru them. Allowing the Feds to reload for another pass.

The photon can be held at overload levels. Has the Prox ability as well. I wonder how many Fed players have tried to load standard photons charged in like the have overloads. With the extra power in the front shield. Then when the other player turns out to keep outside overload range. The Fed cuts loose with the photons on weak rear shields.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 03:54 pm: Edit

The Fed also suffers from the range 1 auto hit for photons generally being a losing proposition for it due to the feedback. Indeed, against the Orion they have to avoid that, as the Fed will almost certainly lose any such exchange. That is actually the main strategy I have used versus the Fed in tourney as the Orion.

I would wonder if average damage would actually hurt the Fed at range 2 - 53 instead of a possible 64. Likely would mean the Fed would lose a range 2 shot vs. the Orion where the full 64 generally means a win.

Tim.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 04:09 pm: Edit

An idea- probably a bad one. How about cap the photon at 12 points of damage (6 to charge, 1.5 to hold) and make them 1-4 to hit at range 5-8? So ranges 3-8 they would hit on a 1-4 but for a max of 12. I don't think anyone is completely dead if 3 hit at range 8 for 36. Still pretty dead if they all hit but that shouldn't happen all that often. If only 2 hit for the Fed, which should happen often on 1-4, probably gets light internals. It might also help to change the 9-12 range chart to 1-3 for standards. That would open up all kinds of different options.

How do you guys think that would work? Maybe too weak. Probably a terrible idea.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 04:55 pm: Edit

I think then you are playing the Vudar. And we have seen how that goes ("I got to R5, fired 4 ICs with a better than 50% chance to hit, hit with one of them! Twice!").

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 06:35 pm: Edit

The Fed is just hard to balance. The Photon is also the only weapon that can be held as an OL.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Yeah Peter- you are right. Sounds alot like a Vudar.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 - 11:51 am: Edit

My opinion: The Fed needs two extra power. Makes the off turns a little more survivable.

The Fed also needs to be firing on Impulse 32 as oblique as it can possibly get... preferably at R8 for the first shot.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Andy- that is pretty much exactly what Seth did and he only hit with 1 and did 3 internals all hull.

Then- Seth (who is a great player) was absolutely annihilated by Ron (who is also a great player). To be fair the Shark is definitely the superior ship.

I don't think 2 more power would have solved Seth's problems. He would be just as dead probably.