Archive through February 20, 2023
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Player Campaigns:
Mini-Campaign: Starbase Tryouts:
Archive through February 20, 2023
I point out that the Klingons can kill the WW. It looks like a SB after all. After the explosion period has passed, those drones are still heading toward the WW's hex. However, If the SB brings up Fire Control, then then those drones (and SPs) will target the SB. Note that the Klingon can launch new drones after the explosion period has passed (up to their limit of drone control of course).
Definitely. That's the painful period where you'll be unarmed. But it could be worth it if you're shutting down 66 drones from those 11 scatter-packs.
If the FED does wait, then the Klingons should close to range 8 for overloaded disruptors. Better yet would be to time the Klingon approach to hit the damaged/down shield that will be rotating in arc (rotation speed is 4). Further, the Klingon should wait until all 66 drones are relatively close to the former WW before closing. The Klingon wants to be at range 8 before the SB fire control is fully active.
One other tactic to consider is to add s small ship or two to the SB defending force, and then blow it up to catch a large drone wave in the explosion.
--Mike
Assuming no mine field of course, if you're going to come to range eight because the Starbase is under weasel restrictions (with a lot of incoming drones), the Klingon fleet should close to range three so they can effectively use all those phaser-2s (while the base is motivated to remain under weasel restrictions). The Klingons at close range can then also launch additional drones as the original swarm gets weaseled to try to keep the SB busy.
With all those phasers at close range, mizia will be a real possibility, and at close range so are hit and run raids or boarding en masse.
The Starbase cannot raise enough militia to matter, at least not without a lot of turns to do so.
Keep in mind you can only mizia the weapons in the facing starbase module, but if you dump 400 damage into one facing of the starbase, that should put a serious dent into its power. You can still hit and run the weapons in other modules.
I'm inclined to agree that taking an F5 at range and weaseling the drones is a sound move.
Mike E, that's very mercenary. I like it.
Rules state that even at standard level, certain EW effects are in play. So small target modifiers and such are applicable.
Gameplay resumes after dinner this evening and is expected to go late. So should have a multi turn report in the new year.
Have a wonderful evening everyone and have a happy new year!
Also, Side-Slips are considered advanced rules, so add that to the list of oopsies.
Well that was interesting.
The Klingon attack force steered clear of the traditional oblique angles. It had the effect of only allowing the Starbase to bring 4 mods into arc on any one ship. Then they just sat at range 15, tac'd, and launched SP and drone waves every 1/4 turn. All the while pulverizing me with Disruptors.
After all my tough talk, I conceded on turn 4 with half the pods blown to bits and taking heavy core internal damage. Yeah, they were blasting two shields at a time and only had two crippled F5s for the effort.
Generally an undefended base cannot defeat a fleet of equal BPV. The total inability to control the range is a crippling disadvantage for which (usually) phaser-4s cannot compensate.
You can probably find an exception, but the rule of thumb is a base has to be defended if it is going to survive.
Historically speaking, the purpose of the base (tactically speaking, ignoring the bases' strategic benefits) is to serve as a serious hard point that is outside the command structure of a defending fleet. When used this way, the SB becomes a major *advantage* to the defender, and by and large the general rule is that the attacker must take far FAR more damage than the defender does in order to destroy the base.
An attacking fleet of 12+ ships fighting a defending fleet of 12+ ships PLUS a SB is a very nasty proposition for the attacker.
This is the way it works in F&E (statistically speaking, that is) and fighting a fleet covered by a defending SB almost always results in dozens of dead and crippled attacking ships over multiple combat rounds.
In other words, in F&E a not uncommon scenario is for the attacker to bring 75 ships to the party, and the defender 25. Many fleets of 12+ attacking ships fight multiple battles over the SB until the defender runs out of defending ships. Then the SB goes down quick.
I don't want to get into the ins and outs of F&E, since this is a SFB topic. However, the general principle applies. SBs are force multipliers for defending fleets (tactically speaking) - they are surprisingly vulnerable when left alone.
YMMV.
IMHO a more interesting challenge in SFB is to give the attacker a large fleet with powerful ships (e.g., 15 ships after you include two command points, a battle group bonus, and a scout). Give the defenders a modest fleet so that the BPV rounds out.
I think things will be a lot more difficult on the attacking fleet, and make for a more interesting scenario than watching the attacker park at range 15 and dish out pain till the SB dies.
I don't think this was even an equal BPV battle. It looks like the attacking force had about twice the BPV of the defenders. Even a novice player should be able to kill the Starbase under these circumstances.
One hing to note is that you allowed the use of Scatter-Packs, which are an Advanced Missions rule (FD7.0). Which allowed the Klingon to expend his drone stockpile faster. In normal game turns he would have been limited to 6 from the C9B, 6 from the D7s, 8 from the D6s, and three from the F5s. He could double that by using the Turn Break, forcing you deal with two turns of drones. But that gives you a lot of time between drone waves.
TRANSCRIPT OF ACADEMY TRAINING SIMULATION: STARBASE TRYOUTS
Game 2 of 3
(SG8.0) ASSAULT ON A STARBASE Y175
PROCEED:
“Alright you space cadets! The warm-up is over! Let’s see if you got what it takes.”
RED SHIRT TEAM:
FEDERATION STARBASE: The Bullseye, 2 POWER MODULES, 4 HANGER BAY MODULES (with 12 F-14s and 12 F-18s). HEX 2217, ROTATION SPEED 4
1 STANDARD MINEFIELD
SUPPORTING FLEET:
4 POL, 1 VT (corvette), 1 DDG, 1 CL (old)
WS III
GOLD SHIRT TEAM:
KLINGON FORCE PER (SG8.61) {modified for date and rules available}
C9K Dreadfully Not, D7K Rattle, D7K Cattle, D7K Saddle, D6K Fee, D6K Hi-Fi, D6D Pho, D6S Fum, D5J Aussie (with poor crew), F5M Tab, F5V Caps-Lock, F5E Shift,
Enter from any map edge, SPEED 15, WS III
SPEED 20 DRONES
ALL STANDARD, ADVANCED, AND COMMANDERS RULES APPLY
FLOATING MAP
“Keep in mind, cadets, starbase shields are increased from 50 to 80. The base now has EW, Scout Functions, full Aegis, fighters, and support ships.”
The Klingon attack force has a drone cruiser (The Pho), a 12th ship, D5J (as the Fum was converted to a scout), a minesweeper (The Tab), and an F5V light carrier.”
Best of luck!”
To be continued . . .
[As for Game #1, the SP’s we definitely an awkward balance issue. Even in the context of the game not being balanced, it was an awkward imbalance, if that makes sense. I think Ted F. has outlined where this is going, I’m just ramping up slowly, for the play, the experience, and to absorb the rules at a rate that doesn’t melt my mind.]
Back to Game #2:
Query #1: Commanders options recommendations? For the Klingons? For the Base and defenders?
Query #2: A D6D has special sensors, as does the D6S. Is that legal? I’ll repost this in the rules questions as well.
Query #3: The Federation force is based on R1.1C and R1.1E and is basically set. The Klingon Force is a reimagining of SG8.61 (and the previous game). It’s more open to – shall we say – variation. Any recommendations?
From Ted Fay's post from 9:32 AM on 3 January:
Quote:Generally an undefended base cannot defeat a fleet of equal BPV. The total inability to control the range is a crippling disadvantage for which (usually) phaser-4s cannot compensate.
You can probably find an exception, but the rule of thumb is a base has to be defended if it is going to survive.
I would say the two primary exceptions are the Romulans and (conditionally) the Tholians.
A Romulan base can cloak, which forces the attackers to get close if they wish to damage it. The base can then uncloak and open up with phaser-4s and heavy plasma. It's hardly a guaranteed win for the base, but it does complicate the ability of the attackers to choose the optimum range.
A Tholian base is in an even stronger position IF it is surrounded by a six-hex globular web. The web was presumably established when the base was constructed and although a base surrounded by a single strand of globular web is hardly as formidable as a full wedding cake (which requires defending ships and/or PFs in addition to the base), even that single strand stops direct fire weapons until the attackers reach range-1. The Tholian can open up with phaser-4s and phaser-3s (including the phaser-3s on any shuttle craft that have been launched) at range-2, before the attacker fire its own direct fire weapons. Given equal BPV, it's doubtful whether the attacker will have enough weaponry left after this preemptive strike to take out the base, though that depends somewhat on just who the attacker is.
A six-hex globular web at strength-1 would only cost 1.5 BPV, a trivial cost for the benefit. That strength-1 web will not stop seeking weapons but as soon as the base detects the approaching attackers, it will presumably start reinforcing the web, as well as, perhaps, arming a wild weasel.
For the Feds...
Klingons are likely to take out the ships quickly. If they make the mistake of crippling them and letting them live, dock them and institute repairs ASAP.
If their minesweeper is going to do its job, it's going to have to get out ahead of the fleet. Make sure your minefield puts it in a good Ph-4 range. 
Fighters. With two dozen of them, you can generate quite a swarm of drones. Do so, then get them back aboard for rearming as dynamically as possible.
Base Special Sensors. IIRC, Special Sensors on bases are NOT blinded by weapons fire. Use that to lend OEW to critical Klingon units and your defenders, and try to boost your EW edge by killing the Klingon D6S (first) and D6D (that's also a scout, but one with only two channels).
With that last thought in mind, Klingons, keep the Pho, Fum, Caps-Lock, and Shift as far away as possible while still keeping the rest of your ships in range of the Special Sensors on Pho and Fum. If the only option the Feds have for attacking them is by drones, Shift can handle the bulk of them easily enough. Keep Tab with them as well; the Fed minefield can wait until long range disruptor fire has killed most of the Fed Ph-4s and mobile units, and her phasers can assist in drone defense.
Despite her collection of dregs, Aussie ought to do yeoman support against Fed drones hitting the main group, especially if the fighters from Caps-Lock assist her.
Choose a target per turn and hit it with all disruptors. Kill cripples; SB have too many resources to repair them.
>> I’m just ramping up slowly, for the play, the experience, and to absorb the rules at a rate that doesn’t melt my mind.
A SB assault by a full fleet is quite an undertaking, particularly with drones and fighters. Hats off to you for picking up the gauntlet!
One piece of advice I'd add is to count up your shuttles, drone control abilities, drone racks, reloads and extra drone storage (carrier and D6D) and plan out how long you can heavily bombard for. That may put an upper limit on how long your attack can go on. Or, if drones are plentiful, then you can launch away confidently for a longer period of time and really keep the pressure on as you wear down your opponent.
--Mike
Klingon D6D and D6S are a legal use in terms of basic fleet rules. The appearance of a D6S could be deemed justified by the base (Klingon high command chose the ships for this campaign). The D6D while allowed is not necessarily being properly used in the direct assault, but the rules allow it.
The Klingon's first order of business is to read up on MX. Be prepared to play the scenario for a long time. I am assuming the MX is hidden.
For example, the MFC (Mine Field Controller) must announce when a Klingon ship is within 10 hexes from at least 6 automatic mines. The MFC must give the distance from the ship that detected the MX to the nearest Mine.
When the above happens, the Klingon fleet will use ED (Emergency Deceleration). From there the Klingons will detect mines, identify mines, and possibly sweep mines. Over time, all mines near the Klingons will be mapped. The MFC is required to assign a detection number (1 thru 6) to each mine.
Note, the above may not happen if the Klingons reach their desired distance from the SB for attrition firing and have not detected a MX. (Already discussed.)
Meanwhile, the Klingon ships will target a Fed ship with Disruptors (maybe P1s) using our previous discussed EW (Electronic Warfare) knowledge or the SB depending on "favorable" targets.
A "Konga Line" of drones may be useful in "discovering" automatic mines set to kill drones. Obviously, the mine will detonate thereby eliminating one explosive mine. Be sure to map the path for future drone launches.
It is a good idea to map where the Fed ships/ftrs/drones move. The MX affects the FED as well as the Klingons. A safe path might be deduced.
Traditionally, the MX surrounds the SB in a circle equally. A hole may be swept/eliminated for the Klingons to advance thru. There will be a "safe path" for Federation ships to navigate somewhere in the MX. The Klingons may decide to attack from a different direction. Say direction C instead of direction B, hoping to find the "safe path".
Have FUN. There are many decisions to be made. Too many to cover during the scenario.
John Stiff:
Sounds as if you were Watching me when I was attacking the Federation Base (Albeit only a battlestation) in the "Ghostlight: Day One" story battle report in Captain's Log #9.
SPP, when you brought up battlestations, it (unfortunately) gave me one of my "Lurid Madness Minutes" that I'd like to share.
(I do have the straitjacket with the "Cuckoo, Cuckoo" drawstring at the ready... )
As a storyteller, one of my favorite minicampaigns is "Stealing First Base" (Module C3). I can imagine an enlarged variant where the potential forces for attacking a StarBase have to work their way through opposition battlegroups (and may suffer damage?) and the length of time it takes each of them to do so adjusts their arrival turn against the ultimate target.
Defending ships likewise get "Distracted" by Fast Raiders, Orion attacks, and other problems, delaying THEIR arrival at the StarBase.
Perhaps some of the forces used to delay the attacking groups, should they disengage, may also arrive to help defend the StarBase?
This has the potential to make for a HUGE minicampaign, but does it sound exciting to anyone?
I have thought about a scenario were the Romulans. During their entry into the General war. After the initial attacks stall out. They need to take out a federation battle station. However, it is well defended by a number of ships.
The Fleet command has a meeting. Were the captains put forth a plan to take out the base. The admiral believes that a force of ships needs to go past the base on route to attack a colony. That would then draw out the bases defending ships. leaving the base lightly defended.
The Argument then begins about who gets the honor of destroying the base. The Kestral and or hawk class ship captains. That their new class ships being superior to the old eagle class ships should get the honor. They can sacrifice the old ships.
The Eagle squadron Commander states the facts. One the newer Hawk and Kestral class ships. Are much better in open space combat then the old Eagle class ships. Also, the eagle class ships can easily approach the base using cloak. Then use the Longer ranged Plasma R to reduce the base to scrap.
The Admiral agrees with that plan. Just something I have thought about.
Hi Steve Petrick,
It is coincidence. I was the victim of the "Konga Line" tactic with my friends. Only they began using long range disruptor fire (with Derfacs) to whittle down my shields while I was helpless. The WW explosion period expired, and I faced lots of incoming drones. I got all of the drones with the WW but had a damaged SB. It was an easy victory for the Klingons.
In another game, I got even when I faced a Romulan BATS with MX, PFs, pilotless FTRs and a few ships. He expected me to charge thru the MX. My ISC would have none of that. He was surprised when I declared ED for the fleet. I began the tedious task of sweeping the MX.
Forwarding to the end, the BATS cloaked, the pilotless FTRS returned to base and stopped in the BATS' hex. Having cleared a path thru the MX I slowly closed. I ED'd at range 5 and beamed T-bombs (set for shuttles) adjacent to the Cloaked BATS. I staggered my shuttle launches to set off the T-Bombs. The pilotless FTRS went POOF. When the explosion voided the cloak, I had a P1 party! It was getting late, so he decloaked and let me have a PPD party!! I obliged. I didn't need my plasma as the BATS was eliminated.
It was a "rush" to have all PPD's hit (some were overloaded from batteries).
TRAINING SIMULATION: STARBASE TRYOUTS
Game 2 of 3
UPDATE:
Whistle blows. "Delay of game. Penalty: lunch for the waiting player."
- - - -
A lot more set up and prep has slowed the start of play, but we're on track to start this weekend. About the only thing left to do is map out my minefield and plan my starting positions.
Query #1: Should I start with the police boats and light cruiser docked inside the base? I don't know if I can undock them fast enough to not get them blown to bits in the process. I'd better read up on the docking rules.
Query #2: How much is a delay of game penalty worth? Burgers and fries? Or Chinese take-out?
TRANSCRIPT OF ACADEMY TRAINING SIMULATION: STARBASE TRYOUTS
Game 2 of 3
(SG8.0) ASSAULT ON A STARBASE Y175
UPDATE:
It's taken a while but the game has finally begun.
Turn #1, Impulse #1 and #2 saw a lot of ECM drone launches, many ships on both sides are covered with lent ECM via the Starbase and scouts. The Klingons have begun launching their Z-V fighters from the F5V "Capslock". The Federation Starbase has begun launching F14's and F18's from its hanger bays.
The Klingons have detected the minefield and launched a small wave of 3 drones on ballistic courses-testing for drone sensing mines presumably.
More to come . . .
TRAINING SIMULATION: STARBASE TRYOUTS
Game 2 of 3
(SG8.0) ASSAULT ON A STARBASE Y175
UPDATE:
It's a slow motion game for sure. Turn #1 is done.
The Klingons launched 2 waves of 3 drones on ballistic spreads, probing the mine field. I'm not sure I'd have been so cavalier if they were my drones.
The Klingons are moving slow, maxing out Rule (M7.2) Detecting Mines. It's pretty clear where they are going to ford the stream. I've got to say, a fleet of ships with a scout and a MS can detect mines awfully darn fast. Also, one mine field around a base is looking terribly thin from a defensive standpoint.
They've had 2 hiccups. The EW soup eliminated disruptor fire at current ranges. But Photon fire from the Starbase had awesome rolls and took half the forward shield of the D6 Hi-Fi. The D5J got within shooting range of a small photon captor mine (it was detected, but he side slipped and should not have). Only 4 hits to his #1 but it was quite satisfying from my end.
All fighters are launched and ready to shoot on both sides.
All of the Klingon's confidence from game one has evaporated. The EW and minefield, along with the fact that I have 3 times the fighters he has, has really left him in a state of frustration.
Payback. Got to love it.
STARBASE TRYOUTS: Game 2 of 3
(SG8.0) ASSAULT ON A STARBASE Y175
UPDATE:
Turn #2
The Klingon fleet is still trudging thru the mine field. They are being very cautious. Federation F14's, F18's, POL's, CL, and DD go on the offensive.
Waves of drones, staggered SP launches, and moving into position for a possible direct strike.
Uncertain if this is a good plan. If the Klingons repel my attack, the Starbase will be in a world of hurt.
Klingons fired some drones on Impulse #28. I'm guessing those are targeted on incoming drones.
That's it for now, no idea how it's going to turn out at this point.
STARBASE TRYOUTS: Game 2 of 3
(SG8.0) ASSAULT ON A STARBASE Y175
UPDATE: Turn #3
The Federation drew first blood, the Police boats, with the DDG and CL closed to a range of 10 hexes. They scored 7 hits with prox torpedoes, and throwing in every phaser one and four that was in arc, managed to breach a D6's forward shield and score some internal damage. The Klingons didnt like that.
At the same time The Fed fighters sent in waves of drones, and the scatterpacks staggered off their ordnance. I misjudged the range at one point and paid for the error with 3 F18's.
All the Federation fighters are now at a safe distance and the F14's will dock on Turn #4 and start reloading.
The Klingons are by all appearances nesting into the minefield, sweeping my mines and scattering their own all over the place.
I think my minefield just became their minefield.
Not cool.
Lastly, the Klingons have, with drones, ADDs, and a few phasers been very successful at neutralizing my drone waves.
I havent been very good at staggering and massing them at the same time. I think I need to spread out more and launch from wider angles, but that plan has issues of its own.
I dont think the Klingons will reach range 15 until turn 5? What they do then is a mystery to me.