This unit, although not exclusively Tholian technology, is used by the Tholians on large asteroids being used as web anchors. Its purpose is to catch enemy ships passing nearby, stopping them in their tracks, and rotating them into a web. They could also be used to catch and rotate through the web any Tholian ships that may have been crippled when attacking invading units. They could be found most often within buzz saw webs in which the enemy's path was predictable and close.

Their presence could cause ships traveling through buzz saw channels to allocate energy for negative tractor in case there's an auction.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 10:37 am: Edit

With respect, John, if I could have a ground base in a web trap, despite the flexibility of tractor beams, I honestly think I'd prefer a base with a Phaser-4.

Of course, that may just be a reflection of my tactical ineptitude .

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Jeff, no offense taken.

GBDPs are good, no doubt, but they cannot push/pull an enemy into a web hex. Just 1 GBTB on a well chosen asteroid can push an enemy into a web at a position from which it may not be able to extract itself, and getting help from another ship may be too hazardous to attempt (G10.56). A 2 strand 30 hex buzzsaw would need 2 of these. I have a mind towards capturing enemy ships as a Tholian to increase my hull count rather than just blowing them up. I prefer to keep in mind the past and future as mentioned in (S8.0). The Tholians cannot count on having a DN available to defend a base every time much less shove an enemy into a web.

The GBTB would be a part of a well balanced defense. With only the P-3s for weapons, I'd expect it to cost less than 10 BPV. I would trade that for a capture attempt. It would be an inexpensive way to have the larger unit for rotating enemy units.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 07:54 pm: Edit

John,

How do you propose to keep the targeted ship from simply vaporizing the Ground Based Tractor Beam before the latter ever has opportunity to rotate the tractored ship? Given how little power a small ground base has, how does it overcome the target ship's "negative tractor"?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Alan, while there are partial compensating options for John C’s tractor ground base…(APR module, battery, ground power grid connections to other small or medium ground bases with power or battery systems…) your point is well made.

I suspect the reasons you listed are, ultimately, why a ground tractor base module was not published originally. It is possible that a number of ground bases not published for similar reasons: transporter ground base, SFG ground base, Tholian Web ground base etc.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Alan, that is a possibility, but I believe that the enemy which gets into the range and arc will be other than unscathed. Their available energy and weapons will be reduced, and the decision to produce negative tractor will come at the expense of something else. Tholian ships may also be near waiting for the enemy to fire on the GBTB before exposing themselves to fire.

Your question could just as easily be adjusted for a Kzinti, "Why launch drones when they'll just be shot down?" It's about tactics, and creating tactical dilemmas for the enemy.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 07:44 am: Edit

I think you'd do better with a "ground based defsat."

Plop this on an asteroid and you get to shoot at the enemy when they go by and (eventually) use it's transporter relay function to board...

Enemies would have a heck of a time getting/ holding a lock on, etc.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 02:13 pm: Edit

John,

I take your point, but still think that if you want to go this route (personally, I believe a wedding cake is superior to a buzz saw in any case) I would rather have a Ground Based Phaser-4 on that asteroid. You seem to put great stock in the idea of capuring an attacking warship by rotating it into a web. But I think you are unlikely to actually carry that off, at least against someone with experience attacking Tholian bases.

And while killing the Ground Based Tractor would indeed absorb some Klingon (or whoever) fire, so would the phaser-4, with the added advantage that the phaser-4 will do more damage to the attackers. Note that the tractor could only affect a Klingon attacker once that attacker has a clear line of sight to the asteroid, unobstructed by any web hexes (at which point the tractor base is very likely to become a rapidly expanding cloud of superheated gas). But if the Klingon is slowly picking his way through the minefield, that clear line of sight may not exist for several turns. And the phaser-4 would still be inflicting damage during those earlier turns.

I don't hate this idea and if ADB decides to go with it, fine. But if ADB is going to publish more small ground bases, there are others I think would be of more use to the Tholians.

YM, as they say, MV

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Alan, fair enough. Opinions, as well as mileage, may vary.

At some point I would like to have our respectful, non-confrontational discussion on the merits of wedding cakes and buzz saws.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Personally, I think it's better to cut a wedding cake with a knife, but to each their own.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, May 09, 2023 - 08:58 pm: Edit

John Christiansen;

A discussion of the merits of wedding cakes and buzz saws (and why I think wedding cakes are superior) is going to take a while, and involve multiple posts. But let me start out with an area where I believe the wedding cake has a clear advantage; powering up the webs. I'm not talking about power to maintain the webs once they have been brought up to strength. That's a separate topic for a separate post.

We know that webs are maintained long-term at zero strength and powered up when an enemy force is detected. The web strength at start-of-battle will then be a function of the composition of Tholian forces, year of the scenario, and how far away the enemy is actually detected.

A full two-strand buzz saw has 60 web hexes. A three-tier wedding cake has 54. At first glance this doesn't seem like a major difference. Indeed, since the base can contribute energy to all strands of a buzz saw, while in a wedding cake it can power only the innermost globular web; leaving the outer two webs to be powered up solely by ships; it may well take fewer turns to bring the buzz saw to full strength even though it has slightly more web hexes.

The problem with this assessment is that, if the Tholians have comparatively few ships and only a short time before the attackers arrive, a wedding cake has a viable "fall back" option; a two-tier wedding cake. Ignore the outermost globular web and simply power up the middle and inner tiers. While less strong than a full strength three-tier, it can be brought to a "useful" level of strength in less than half the time.

The two-strand buzz saw has no comparable fall back option. If the Tholians only power up one strand, the defense is much more fragile than a two-tier wedding cake. The attackers can move directly through the unpowered strand and straight on to the powered strand; becoming trapped, but at a location from which they have a clear line-of-fire against the base. They don't have to move "along the spiral" and thus will only encounter a small percentage of the defender's mines. The only way the two-strand buzz saw creates a truly formidable defense (given that the attackers will have far stronger "mobile" forces; ships, PFs, and fighters) is if both strands are powered to a high strength. And if the attacker isn't detected until comparatively close, that may take too long.

But suppose the attacker isn't detected until really close; the wedding cake has still another fall back, which they can assume almost instantly; the single-tier web composed of just the six-hex globular web adjacent to the base. The attacker won't have to fight through any external layers, but can move directly onto the inner globular web to shoot at the base. But a strong six-hex web still creates problems for the attacker.

a) They still have to move through the minefield, taking at least some damage.

b) That inner web takes the attacker's seeking weapons almost or completely out of the picture (the importance of which varies with the specific attacking force).

c) They give the Tholian defenders a "preemptive" phaser shot at range-2; i.e. before those weapons can fire on the Tholians. Depending on the exact composition of the Tholian forces, this preemptive shot may be able to one-shot vaporize several of the attackers (or cripple a larger number of them) without those attackers ever getting a shot off. If the attack is strong enough, this may not save the base. But it will at least extend the fight for more turns and inflict more casualties on the attackers before the base dies. So maybe it doesn't save that specific base but the high attacker losses force them to postpone or even call off their planned attack against the next base down the line.

If a base with a buzz saw defense does have to react to a very-short-notice attack, and does try to power up a single strand, the defense will still be much weaker for two reasons.

a) Trying to power up a 30-hex strand will leave the web too weak (given the assumed short time frame) to neutralize the enemy seeking weapons. Those weapons will waste a few impulse trapped in the web (which may result in weaker warhead strength if the attacker has plasma torpedoes) and then continue on to the base.

b) The defenders can still try a preemptive shot to "pull some teeth" before the attackers fire. But that shot will be at longer range and therefore pull fewer teeth. The attackers then move onto the web abd shoot the base. They will also be at longer range, but will have more weapons left than against the base surrounded by a (strong) 6-hex globular web.

I will address some aspects that I believe are important for "full strength" defenses in another post - maybe tomorrow or maybe Thursday. But for now... the existence of superior "fall back options" if the base is caught at low weapon status is one of the reasons I believe a wedding cake is superior to a buzz saw.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, May 10, 2023 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Alan, I guess this thread is out of the way enough for this conversation. It won't interfere with any other players' discussions. Also, take your time, and know that I am busy, too.

Before we get too deep into this discussion, please recognize that I am more of an F&E player, and I keep in mind the whole strategic situation. For example, I do not consider it a valid assumption that if a player selects to voluntarily reduce his web strengths he may select an additional ship. That is a pick up scenario type of thinking. That ship may be occupied elsewhere, and reducing your local web strengths does not mean the Dyson Sphere's auto-forges will increase their output. In another thread, in which I suggest the Tholians might get 42 hex webs, when I asked you if you had a base and 500 BPV for defenses, do you have 3 or 4 globular webs, the question was valid.

This being understood, my opinion of the merits of each type of web changes with the year, the core base, and support fleet. A 2 strand buzzsaw is just as impractical in the early years as a 3 layer wedding cake is.

As an added observation to this, I'm unaware of any guidelines as to how much discretionary power, that power beyond housekeeping requirements, should be required to be available for maintaining and strengthening webs by the base and ships. A single PC cannot maintain a 30 hex outer web and a 12 middle web alone, so a 35 aggregate strength WS-3 wedding cake is impossible to have for just a base and a single PC.

Your power up observation brings into play rule (S4.2). I believe (S4.22) will give the Tholians a +2 modifier (special sensors, and being in a war zone), making WS-1 automatic, and WS-2 or 3 very likely. Your “fall back” options will only come into play if the Tholians are surprised. Surprise (D18.0) is rare, and inconceivable around any unit worth setting up either a wedding cake or buzzsaw. Even a barely competent commander will not allow his base's special sensors to be shut down without another unit with active special sensors being there as a look out, so Surprise (D18.0) is effectively a non-existent issue.

As I said earlier, the merits of each web design change with the year, the core base, and the supporting fleet. A buzzsaw is more of a big boys choice as it's more of an all or nothing choice. You power both strands or you don't waste the power, and in the later years it becomes more of an option as webs become more efficient to maintain and reinforce. A starbase is a better choice for a buzzsaw than a base station as the starbase can contribute more to the web strands. Should a base station have the ship support for a 3-tier wedding cake, a buzzsaw is a viable option. Should a starbase have the ship support for a 3-tier wedding cake, I believe a buzzsaw is the best option.

I think we can both agree that a decently well defended Tholian base most likely cannot be taken in a single scenario. It's that “peeling an onion” effect that makes it unpleasant. A more plausible assault on a Tholian base would require multiple attacks as in an F&E battle hex with the pressure being kept so high that the minefield, shields, and outer web layer could not be fully repaired between SFB scenarios. In the case of a wedding cake, each Tholian ship becomes more critical to the defense as they will have to risk damage or destruction by approaching the outer web layer to reinforce it. Granted, the attacker will have to endure the minefield and defensive phaser fire while waiting for the defending ships to approach the web to reinforce it, but they can change from offering the #s 2 and 3 shields to the #s 5 and 6 shields by reversing their orbits. Every power box destroyed on a Tholian ship is either a weapon not fired at the attacker or a little less power supplied to the web. Once the Tholian fleet power levels drop to a certain level, the outer web layer will fall. The same for the middle web layer. Buzzsaws do not have that problem. All units can be parked with the central base and contribute to the web and firing at the enemy. The enemy has no time to waste getting to the central base. Their choice is to rush the base and accept the mine damage minimizing the defensive fire, or minimize mine damage and take more defensive fire. I haven't done the math, but I believe a buzzsaw defended base may well be defensible against the Seltorians, especially considering your post for Seltorian web breaker booms. (Good job, by the way.)

Each web pattern uses different mine tactics. We could discuss them but I think the mine use would be a wash or in favor of the buzzsaw. A buzzsaw must have anchors, but a globular web does not. Putting GBDPs on the large asteroid anchors can substantially increase the defensive firepower of either.

Any way you look at it, anyone choosing to attack a Tholian base has already decided to take casualties.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, May 10, 2023 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Hmmm, looking at the starting range, one map (42x30) limits it from 29 (xx01/xx30) to 50 (0101/4230), a second map (1x2 - 42x60) extends this from 59 (Axx01/Bxx30) to 80 (A0101/B4230) or (2x1 - 84x30) from 29 (xx01/xx30) to 83 (A0101/B4230). A 2x2 map (84x60) yields 59 to 101 and a 3x3 map (126x90) yields 89 to 152 [centering on a 3x3 (E2215) limits this from 45 to 76].

Every 30 hexes of distance between the two gives the Tholians at least one turn of activity (partially dependent of their initial weapons statis). The further out the (paranoid) sensor techs spot them, the more time to prep for the party...

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, May 11, 2023 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Stewart, I don't think that's how it works works. IAW F&E special sensors are good for 1000 parsecs.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, May 11, 2023 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Well, the strategic system allows one to react out, but since this is an attack on a Tholian base, it's the tactical system at work, Tac Intell Level A is 100 hexes for any ship and 150 for a scout actively looking and that is doubled in the Tac S5 (200/300) and that is at least doubled again (400+/600+) for Tac S4 ...

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, May 11, 2023 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Stewart, all true, but I think an approaching fleet will be doing faster than tactical warp until they need to slow down for combat.

Besides, this ignores (S4.2).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 12, 2023 - 12:33 am: Edit

John;

With a +2 modifier from S4.22, the Tholians will still start at WS I 33% of the time. If they are using a buzz saw defense, the strands are strength 20. How fast can the Tholians bring the buzz saw to strength 32; the strength necessary to completely stop the Klingons from moving "across" a strand, encountering only a small percentage of the mines, and force them to follow the spiral, encountering lots of mines? It depends on the year, and on the Tholian forces of course. As a reference example, I'm going to use the Tholian forces from scenario (SH6.0) Assault on the Holdfast for determining timing.

The year is Y167 (web reinforcement 50% more efficient than the "standard" numbers) and the Tholians have a base station with a power module and a hanger bay module (note that Tholian and Hydran hanger bays typically don't have cargo but do have two APR) and three cargo pods. Their mobile units consist of one CA, three PCs, six Spider-I fighters, and two small freighters. How long will it take this force to bring the buzz saw to strength 32? About eight turns.

Now suppose the Tholians were using a wedding cake defense (other initial conditions remaining the same)? The Tholians use what I referred to above as their "fallback option". They ignore the outer web because they can't bring it up to strength in time, and concentrate on the middle web. Power from the base (and modules) isn't available for powering up the middle web, but the Tholian warships (standard freighters don't have web generators) only need to power up 18 hexes from strength 20 to 32. With the forces available, in Y167, that will take about three turns. (Please feel free to check my math. I was just doing this "back of the envelope" calculation in my head, and am most definitely not infallible.)

Of course, after Y175 the web reinforcement becomes even more efficient, and the base would probably be a BATS rather than a base station. On the other hand, even by Y175, how likely is it that every Tholian base has a cruiser immediately present? The Tholians were kind of lucky there.

More later; but I do want to add one more point. John (in his 7:51 PM post from Wednesday) assumes a +2 bonus for determining the weapon status of the defending base. During a war this is valid. But what about the actions of the Klingon's "Harrassment Squadron" in the decades prior to the start of the GW? Or what about a "Pearl Harbor" situation; a sudden, unannounced attack on "Day 1" of the war? If the Tholian base only gets a +1 bonus (the special sensors), it could be starting the fight at WS 0.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, May 12, 2023 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Not so sure that ignoring the outer ring is a good idea as powering it does delay the Klingons (and their drones) allowing for the phasers to take more bites on their shielding, but that's a timing issue (depending on the WS), plus the base should have two hanger modules and power module (it adds two small or one large ship for the Klingons for six more fighters?)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 12, 2023 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Stewart,

Of course you would power up all three rings if you have the time and resources. But one of the reasons I prefer a wedding cake to a buzz saw is that if you don't have much time before the enemies arrive, you have much more viable "partial" defenses, or what I have referred to as "fallbacks" above. A powered-up two tier wedding cake is still pretty darn tough - in a way that a two-strand buzz saw with only one of the strands powered... isn't. If you doubt this, draw out a two-strand buzz saw on graph paper, and then ignore one of the strands. You will quickly find ways to attack it that involve engaging only a small percentage of the defending mines.

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...plus the base should have two hanger modules and power module

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 13, 2023 - 10:56 pm: Edit

There's another issue that is relevant to the Buzz Saw versus Wedding Cake debate; the rate at which an individual unit can reinforce the web. This is separate from the issue of how much total reinforcement the unit can supply. Per (G10.2121) a single ship (a base would count as a ship for this purpose) can only add four points of reinforcing energy per impulse. Note that, unlike the efficiency of the reinforcing energy, this "four points per impulse" doesn't change with technology level or year of the scenario. It also doesn't change with the number of web generators on the ship (or base). A PC in the "early" years? Four points per impulse. An X-tech Starbase in Y190? Four points per impulse. Note that this four points limitation will still be affected by the changing efficiency of reinforcing energy. In the middle years, prior to Y161, that four points will count as four points for determining web strength. From Y161 on, that four points the PC puts into the web, will actually count as six points for determining web strength. And from Y175 on, it will count as 8 points. So imagine a Tholian unit reinforcing a six-hex globular web, prior to Y161 (but after the "early years" limitations). For as long as the Tholian still has more energy avaialble, it an strenghthen the web by 2, every 3 impulses. Post-Y161, it strengthens the web by 1 point per impulse. And from Y175 on, those four points per impulse will actually reinforce the web by 8. For a six-hex globular web, this means the Tholian would strenghthen the web by 4 points every three impulses. This is not a function of X-tech. A PCX could keep this up for more impulses (more total available energy) and strengthen the web by more over the course of a turn. But on an impulse-by-impulse basis, it is no faster than a standard PC.

Now let's consider what this means for the buzz saw versus wedding cake debate. Suppose the base in question is an X-tech starbase, with A LOT of energy to play with, especially if it uses its batteries. It's at the center of a buzz saw and detects approaching Klingons. It starts reinforcing the initially-strength-0 buzz saw at... four energy per impulse... Ahhh! but that's effectively doubled to eight energy per impulse due to post-Y175 improved effciciency! So... eight energy... into 60 web hexes... The buzz saw reaches strength-1 on impulse 8, strength-2 on impulse 15, strength-3... I think you see where this is going.

Even with X-tech, powering up webs quickly requires a significant number of individual units relative to the number of hexes needing to be powered up. So if the argument for a buzz saw defense is that (at least in later years, with improved web reinforcement efficiency), you don't need a lot of units and can get by with just the base and a bunch of mines... that might work if you KNOW that you will already be at a high weapon status. But if there's a chance of starting at a lower weapon status, you could be in trouble.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, May 15, 2023 - 08:10 am: Edit

Alan, you're going faster than my time permits me to match. Please know I'm not neglecting the conversation.

I'm going to repeat a few things I've said earlier. My choice of web patterns changes with the year, core base, and the available fleet (or more accurately 'forces'"). I've also said that the buzzsaw is a big boys game and that it is an all or nothing web pattern.

If you're going to neglect one of the strands of a 2 strand buzzsaw, you might as well spin a tighter single strand spiral web. Neglecting to power up one of the strands is just silly.

As for web strengths, at WS-1, there are 960 web strength points to be distributed, and the rules imply that you don't have to stick with the exact numbers given. You could begin with a 25 ASP (Aggregate Strength Point) outer web, an 11 ASP middle web, and a 1 ASP inner web with the extra energy being applied where you want it.

In a similar fashion, the buzzsaw will have (960÷60) 16 ASP webs, not 20. Details matter.

We'll have to disagree on the meanings of (S4.10), (S4.11), and (S4.22). I don't think (S4.22) means "declared" wars. Also, in a war, you can expect both sides to be on the offensive at some point. The Tholians are completely defensive and being harassed regularly and frequently. The TBS has the added function of being a combat training squadron. I don't think there's even a 1/6 chance of the Tholians being a WS-0. I think the Tholians are paranoid enough that any incursions into their territory would count as "but is in an area where such action has occurred in the recent
past."

Now, I recognize that the scenario chosen was just for showing the speed of web strengthening, but the example scenario you used falls under the categories of year, core base, and supporting fleet. I don't know what functions the asteroids have in this scenario. They aren't necessary to support the webs, so unless I missed something, they can be ignored. The base is small and fleet is weak. Also, I don't recall any minefield. If that base station with those ships were defended by a buzzsaw, that Klingon fleet would travel right up a channel and go toe to toe with the base and destroy it outright. In any case, in that scenario with the Tholians at WS-1, with either web pattern, they would be toast, and yes, it would be worse with a buzzsaw.

If that base were starbase and the Tholian fleet were larger with a DN and a couple of cruisers, even if the Klingon fleet were adjusted upwards accordingly I would expect more than a few of the Klingon ships would neither be destroyed nor going home. Even with that Klingon fleet and the original Tholian ships unchanged, if the base were a starbase with a buzzsaw, I still think the Klingons would be giving hulls to the Tholians, however the base would be seriously damaged. The buzzsaw is a trap.

One of the things I've noticed is that you put a heavy emphasis on the 6 hex inner web and low weapons statuses. Admittedly, the wedding cake, or more specifically your final fallback, would be preferred if caught flat footed.

I did find a potential middle ground. A two strand buzzsaw with a few supporting ships could use (G10.1184) to shorten the strands by 4 hexes from the core. There's a convenient asteroid web anchor there, and the shortening preserves the energy in the web (unless the ASP goes above 35). Those 4 hexes removed would allow for a 6 hex globular web to be spun around the base. However, the base would no longer be able to reinforce the buzzsaw.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 20, 2023 - 01:52 pm: Edit

John,

I haven't been ignoring you but other issues have kept me from getting around to responding. It will probably not surprise you to hear I disagree with some (not all) of your interpretations and I hope to get a response posted this weekend.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, May 20, 2023 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Alan, I've been busy, too. It's been a pleasant respite not to have to try to respond.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, May 28, 2023 - 02:24 pm: Edit

John,

Sorry about taking so long to get a response posted.

You stated in your 7:51 PM post on 10 May:

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... I am more of an F&E player, and I keep in mind the whole strategic situation.

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As for web strengths, at WS-1, there are 960 web strength points to be distributed, and the rules imply that you don't have to stick with the exact numbers given. You could begin with a 25 ASP (Aggregate Strength Point) outer web, an 11 ASP middle web, and a 1 ASP inner web with the extra energy being applied where you want it.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 29, 2023 - 03:12 am: Edit

Before I do anything else, I want to address your point from your 8:10 AM post on 15 May.

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If you're going to neglect one of the strands of a 2 strand buzzsaw, you might as well spin a tighter single strand spiral web. Neglecting to power up one of the strands is just silly.

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