Archive through May 09, 2023
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Rules Questions: Background Q&A: Archive through May 09, 2023
By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, March 08, 2023 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I imagine they would be sublight era weapons, i.e, lasers and atomic missiles.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Wednesday, March 08, 2023 - 11:47 pm: Edit

All that I know about the Wasp People is what I've seen Gary Carney write on these forums and what I've read in the Federation sourcebook for GURPS:

Quote:

Using primitive warp-powered starships, [the wasp people of Vereb IV] were apparently responsible for the disappearance of numerous UFP vessels and colonists over a period of several decades, using the captured people to reestablish their livestock, until they were finally recognized and their system placed under strict quarantine in Y119. All attempts to negotiate or communicate with the Wasp People have failed. Star Fleet and the Federation Police maintain a strong patrol near the system, and any Wasp People ships which attempt to leave the system are destroyed on sight.



My intuition based on the above passage is also that they'd have non-tactical warp (primitive warp powered starships), and that they'd have mostly laser and atomic missile Q-era weaponry.

That they would have posed a threat to pre-Y119 UFP vessels at all suggests to me their technology is probably one foot in Q and one foot in W era, maybe something like the Second Gorn-Romulan War Romulans. That the UFP is able to reliably quarantine the planet and destroy ships leaving the system suggests to me they didn't advance past this late-sublight/early warp era tech within the timeline of the SFU.

Does this sound about right to everybody else?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 12:02 am: Edit

That sounds correct to me.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 06:29 am: Edit

Given the need to capture livestock/hosts, and their tech level, tanglers could be a good match for them.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 08:28 am: Edit

Tanglers?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 11:36 am: Edit

Tanglers are a type of non-lethal personal weapon, normally associated with Jindarian Salvage Teams (their equivalent of Prime Teams).

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Essentially tanglers fire sticky chemical webbing, intended to be largely non-lethal.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 01:24 pm: Edit

The First Klingo-Kzinti War starts in Y50 and runs all the way through to Y82. It is a very interesting conflict. It may even be the most interesting conflict in the entire setting. It is an extremely long war (~32 years) and it sees fighting over three eras: late non-tactical warp (Q), all of the warp-refitted era (W), and into the dawn of the designed-for-warp early years era (Y).

The first Klingon "W" ship is launched in Y63 (the D3). It is armed with drones.

The first Kzinti "W" ship is launched in Y64 (the WCA). Not only is it armed with drones, its primary weapon is its drones.

Quote:

Y65 Drones are first used in combat. Klingons and Kzintis deploy these new weapons simultaneously in an outgrowth of Tactical Warp technology. For a brief period, both races are deploying Non-Tactical Warp ships (which fight at sublight) armed with warp-speed weapons.



This is breaking my brain right now.

Drones cannot have first been deployed in Y65. They're a secondary armament on the D3, which has a YIS date of Y63. They're the primary armament on the WCA, which has a YIS of Y64.

One way to make sense of the contradiction would be to understand that the D3 and WCA were built and deployed prior to Y65, but did not fight until Y65, but this doesn't really make any sense. Non-tactical warp ships are at such a disadvantage against tactical warp ships that a ph-3 armed middle years shuttle could just autocalc a whole fleet of NTW ships and never receive a point of damage. We'd have to accept that the Klinks and the Kzinti held back these wunderwaffe for 2 years or 1 year respectively in a war against each other. I regard this as an unsatisfactory explanation.

Another possibility, somewhat similar to the above, is that there is some as-of-yet-unpublished countermeasure that the Kzintis and Klingons had that allowed NTW ships to pose a serious threat to TW ships, and this led the Klingons to be extremely conservative with their first batch of warp-refitted D3s (keeping them out of combat for two whole years), and for the Kzinti to feel equally conservative with their first WCAs (keeping them out of combat for a year or less, depending on when in Y64 they were launched and when in Y65 drones were first used).

Another possibility is that the drones were left off of the first D3 and WCA ships armed with drones. The idea would be that the D3 SSD we were given in Module Y1 is the beneficiary of a secret refit that kicks in once we reach Y65, with earlier D3s being armed either with no drones, or with atomic missiles replacing the drones. This simply doesn't work with the WCA, whose primary armament is a set of four drone racks. Ignoring the problem with the Kzintis this is still extremely clunky and requires some degree of retcon.

Another possibility, the least satisfying option in my opinion, is that there was some sort of brief cease-fire during the conflict. The Kzinti and Klingons could have negotiated a cessation of hostilities in Y63 that lasted until late Y64 or early Y65, but then peace talks to end the war break down and conflict resumes. This would mean that the Klingons would have given up a solid year of extreme tactical advantage, being the sole possessors of tactical warp ships, in the name of peace. Seems very un-Klingon to me.

Another very retcon-y possibility is that the Y65 date is merely approximate. We aren't to take Y65 as literal in this case, with the date merely marking the approximate shift to drone warfare, not the literal first usage of drones.

What do other people make of this apparent contradiction?

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Why can drones not be deployed in Y63 and be the secondary armament of a D3?

The design team designed the D3 on paper to be Droneless. After the prototype was built the Admiral looked at the design and said let's shoehorn a drone or two. This would make it a secondary system.

Also the WCS description seems to suggest that there may well be NTW ships outfitted with drones already.

Don't over think Klingons. If there is a new weapon system they will definitely check it out.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 08:44 pm: Edit

I don't think the 1st Klingon-Kzinti War was as heavy combat as we see in the General War.

Slower ships, shorter supply lines, more problems setting up forward bases. It's more in the line of a long running border war. Operations to try and seize or take back something in or near the Neutral Zone.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 08:53 pm: Edit

In regards to drones, I think it is most likely that the Klingons and Kzintis developed and deployed the weapon at the same time. Klingon F-racks replace shuttles (per FD3.6) so the earliest warp-refitted Klingon warships probably just had a larger shuttle complement that was later reduced to make space for the drone racks. The delay in seeing drones used in combat may have been the result of the need to build up sufficient stocks of drones before drone-armed ships could be committed to combat operations.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Sunday, May 07, 2023 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Dal:

Quote:

Why can drones not be deployed in Y63 and be the secondary armament of a D3?



Drones can be the secondary armament of a D3, they just can't be the secondary armament of a D3 while it is also true that the D3 as-displayed-on-the-SSD has a YIS date of Y63, since that's two years earlier than Y65, which is a year the Klingons are at war with the Kzintis. You don't develop a new amazing and paradigm-shifting weapon of war, put it into regular production, deploy it, and then sit on it for two years. It's either Y65 or Y63. Not both.

Quote:

Also the WCS description seems to suggest that there may well be NTW ships outfitted with drones already.



The WCS? Do you mean the WCA or WCL, or is there a WCS that I don't know about?

Ryan:

I agree, no wars are as combat-heavy as The General War until The General War. Lack of fighting intensity does not on its own explain how drones could be deployed by either side (let alone both sides) years before their usage.

Douglas:

That's fine, but that's not what's on the SSD. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the F-racks replaced shuttles, but this would be a retcon of what's on the SSD (which is fine), but it would require ADB to retcon it.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 07:48 am: Edit

Well, I would ask how long does it take a new ship to undergo trials, shakedown, and then get to the front?

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 08:19 am: Edit

Mike:

This line of reasoning doesn't work.

The YIS date is the date the ship is "in service."

We have rules to allow a prototype or whatnot a couple of years earlier, but the year in service date is the year in service.

Unless this is the only time in the entire SFU that the year in service date means something other than the date the ship is deployed and available for service, then the D3 should be available for service in Y63 and Y64, which are years that the Klingons are at war with the Kzintis, and (as of Y42) only the Kzintis.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 09:48 am: Edit

For what (little) it's worth, I suspect that, if or when we ever see a more in-depth look at the GURPS PD Tech Level 9 (or Non-Tactical Warp) era in the Alpha Octant, there might then be scope to adjust the timeline entry in question from Y65 to an earlier year.

I'm not sure there should be a hurry to establish exactly which year just yet, though, as we'd need to see what the "sub-light" versions of the Klingon D3 and its Kzinti counterpart look like, and then perhaps see a number of "-S" era ("sub-light" hulls with warp-targeting capabilities) ships for both empires, from which the earliest "warp-class" drones* can be launched.

Well, technically one could draw up the "S-era" SSDs first, as certain other Alpha empires have a number of such ships in the various SFB Y-modules already - but the window of opportunity for such SSDs to actually be of use is much shorter in this instance.

But any in-depth look at the NTW era would also have to account for the Carnivons of this time period, as they were a hostile power on the Kzintis' "western" borders by the onset of W-era tactical warp drive. So any prototype drone usage by the Kzintis needs to be not quite so early as to cause too much of an imbalance too soon over on the Carnivon front.

*Of course, the Q'naabians had been launching "warp-class" plasma drones before this time.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Perhaps they first deployed ships armed with sub-light or light-speed drones, then upgraded when warp drones were invented.


Garth L. Getgen

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 02:22 pm: Edit

The SSD tells us the D3 has a type-F drone rack but it doesn't tell us what type of drones it carried. An easy solution would be that they originally carried target drones (type-I drones with a null module) which were later replaced by standard drones when they became available.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Or the Klingons, had another threat to deal with and the D3's were deployed in their initial years to face that threat, which allowed the Kzintis the time to field their own counter to the the Klingon TW ships.

I would guess that not all of "klingon" space was fully explored in this era and the Klingons may have discovered a future subject species with TW ships. Which would be a threat that would require all of the D3's in service to combat. Since the NTW ships could continue to deal with the Kzinti.

The D3's would have been deployed with NTW drones, and the realization of their impracticality may have pushed the klingons to produce TW drones in Y65, which the Kzintis copied.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Or the Klingons, had another threat to deal with and the D3's were deployed in their initial years to face that threat, which allowed the Kzintis the time to field their own counter to the the Klingon TW ships.

I would guess that not all of "klingon" space was fully explored in this era and the Klingons may have discovered a future subject species with TW ships. Which would be a threat that would require all of the D3's in service to combat. Since the NTW ships could continue to deal with the Kzinti.

The D3's would have been deployed with NTW drones, and the realization of their impracticality may have pushed the klingons to produce TW drones in Y65, which the Kzintis copied.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Douglas:

It is true that we don't actually know what drones were on the D3. I just assumed they were type I slow drones (half strength for being early years), but upon checking the rules for drone availability in Module Y1, those drones became available in Y65. The solution to the apparent contradiction of Y63 and Y64 YIS dates for the D3 and WCA and drones first being used (and now being available at all)in Y65 could be that these were trainer drones with rubber ducky warheads. It works, but it is extremely dissatisfying as a solution imo.

James:

Tying up the warp-refitted D3s in the front line of an as-of-yet unrevealed war against the Badminton People of Zipzop IV instead of the front line of the Klingo-Kzinti war doesn't actually help resolve the problem. If the D3 had drones in Y63 the D3 would have used drones against the Kzinti, or against whatever other enemies the D3s were sent against.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Just tossing my two quatloos in here... On the website, in the archives, is the old pre-Captain's Edition sublight rules. One of the weapons of that era is a nuclear tipped missle.

I think they had a warhead strength of 6 and moved like any other sublight object.

Its just a guess, but if the D3 was indeed launched in Y63, and Type-I-Slow, Early drones were not around for two more years, the older sublight weapons would be used while waiting for the FTL drones in the pipeline.

Failing that, it becomes a Zumwalt Conundrum: buy the gun but not the too-expensive ammo.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 09:56 pm: Edit

Per YFD18.23 atomic missiles and drones are not interchangeable (they can't use each other's launchers) so for the D3 to have used atomic missile in Y63-64 it would have needed atomic missile launchers instead of F-racks. This would not be consistent with the background in FD3.6 which states that F-racks replaced shuttles, not atomic missile launchers.

Honestly, I don't see a problem here. Prior to Y65 the D3 could have had target drones or shuttles in place of the F-racks. Or there might have been logistical or strategic reasons to delay sending the new ships into battle. I don't see any compelling reason why it needs to be more complicated than that.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Monday, May 08, 2023 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Fair point Douglas, the Klingon Jump Racks have always felt like a field-expedient that metastasized into fleet doctrine after all.

By James Cummins (Jamescummins) on Tuesday, May 09, 2023 - 10:01 am: Edit

Shawn:

Sorry the use of the Badminton People of Zipzop IV, was to give a reason for the the D3's not being deployed on the Kzinti front, for a full year when the NTW Kzinti forces would not be able to combat the D3's. As the D3's were flying at tactical warp speeds. Making the Kzinti sublight drones useless, the targeting systems of the NTW Kzinti ships could not track the D3's. This I expect would lead to substantial destruction of the Kzinti fleet and to a substantial loss of territory and resources for the Kzinti. Such that I would be surprised that they could continue to resist the Klingons.

and I did say they would initially be using the NTW drones, which to TW ship, would effectively be a mine.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Tuesday, May 09, 2023 - 02:25 pm: Edit

I was being cute, you made solid points all 'round.

Cards on the table: I have been working on a module Q submission since about September 2021 and so quirks like this (drones on Y63 SSDs, but no drones in combat prior to Y65) are hugely consequential for where I take the project.

Normally I wouldn't be quite so pedantic about a two year inconsistency in the timeline, but as I said, it is of real consequence whether or not there is a canonical answer here.

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