| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, June 11, 2023 - 01:15 pm: Edit |
Alan, given the fact that we're discussing a game and one based on science fiction, your suggestion to make an (S8.0) scenario is unrealistic. I disagree with the notion that if you choose not to have asteroids, you get to have some ships in their place.
When you suggested comparable resources and comparable warning, I took that to mean comparable things, not comparable costs. (S8.0) ignores history, I don’t. Even in (SH6.0) Assault on the Holdfast, those webs have asteroid anchors. Why? I dont know, but they are there.
I agree that a decently defended Tholian base can win a single scenario against an attacker. Imagine how (SH6.0) would have progressed had the Tholian reinforcements been at the base from turn 0.
One mental trap we both are falling into is our personal perspectives of the situation. You're taking a short view (a single scenario), and I'm looking at a longer view (a mini-campaign). As such, many of our major points are simply not being received by the other person.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, June 11, 2023 - 01:16 pm: Edit |
One other point; does anyone following this discussion have a way to post an image, specifically a labeled depiction of a two-strand buzzsaw? Perhaps a link could be posted in this thread to an image board of some sort?
I have created the above-mentioned depiction of a buzzsaw in order to explain how I think the minefield breeching of a buzzsaw defense could be accomplished. This is obviously relevant to the question of whether a buzzsaw or a wedding cake is better, and my attempts to write a purely verbal decription of the process, without reference to any visual aids, seem to me to be rather confusing.
I will say that the minefield breeching attempt would hinge on (G10.76) MINES, which explains the interactions between mine explosions and web, and (G10.56) PULLING A UNIT OUT OF WEB, which explains use of tractors to (as you might surmise from the title)... pull ships out of a web. Note that while a ship (even an X-ship) can not move out of a full strength web using normal movement rules, pulling a friendly ship from web with a tractor requires a tractor equal in strength to the web. Since a maximum-strength web is 35 points, pulling a ship out of even a full strength web is possible if you have a ship capable of putting 35 points into a tractor beam.
An attacker who takes proper advantage of these rules should be able to breech a buzzsaw minefield with lower losses (certainly not with no losses) than you might otherwise expect.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, June 11, 2023 - 01:49 pm: Edit |
John,
And I disagree with your claim that I am thinking in terms only of a single scenario, as witness by mention of redeploying ships from the Klingon to Romulan front after the Hydran victory against the former. You did not address that in your recent post.
And presumably you are not claiming that mines can be produced for free. There must be some cost, at the strategic level; and the cost will be higher (not on a per-mine basis, but in total) for producing a bazillion mines than for producing a few dozen.
Regarding SH6.0; my conjecture is simply that the scenario has been around for a long time and was written back when no one really understood web. So the asteroids were included... just because. While the Tholians might conceivably want to add asteroids to a wedding base in order to deploy additional phaser-4s, there is no reason for them in that scenario and at the time the scenario was written no one understood Tholian base defense well enough to realize they didn't need to be there.
If you don't like that answer, maybe the Tholians intended to deploy some ground-based phaser-4s to bolster the defense, but hadn't gotten around to it yet.
Also regarding SH6.0; I've posted in the past that the scenario is "wrong" - specifically in terms of balance and "historical" result. Having played it both as the Tholians and the Klingons, I am confident that a... competent... Tholian player can hold that base even against an expert Klingon, and they can hold the bas even without reinforcements! The problem is that several relevant rules have changed since the scenario was written but the scenario itself hasn't been changed to adequately correct for this. The most important of these changes concerns web reinforcement. Once upon a time, the web reinforcement rules took no account of the year. So under those older rules supporting the outer two rings would have required 30+18, or 48 energy points per turn to maintain strength. But under the current rules, which date from long after the scenario was written, the Tholians only need to supply 32 energy per turn to maintain web strength. That extra 16 points per turn available to the defending warships (in aggregate) makes a very big difference. Not only do they fight better in their own right, they can keep the webs up longer. So the ships themselves directly inflict nore damage on the Klingons but also enable more turns of phaser-4 fire from the base. I believe that scenario needs to be rewritten, either to reduce Tholian forces or increase Klingon forces.
So far as I can recall, SPP never commented on my previous post regarding that. Maybe he never saw it, or maybe he disagreed with my assessment, or maybe he thought I had a point but had about 100 other issues that were higher priority.
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 12, 2023 - 07:38 am: Edit |
I've always wanted the ability to put Defsats in the web.
1) Firepower
2) That tasty transporter relay.
So the Klinks drop a cruiser into the outermost strand? You drop a shield and then put 20 or so BPs into it. With more to come...
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, June 12, 2023 - 09:27 am: Edit |
Mike,
I'm afraid the rules are explicit that Defsats are only found in orbit around planets. They cannot be placed around bases.
But your comment does remind me of another of John Christiansen's points, that I had intended to address and then forgot about. If I understand him correctly (my apologies to all concerned if I have misunderstood), one reason he prefers the buzzsaw is because he regards it as better for capturing (as opposed to destroying) attacking warships. Given the Tholian limitations on producing warship hulls (expecially large warships) I can certainly understand why the possibility of capturing enemy warships to convert to Tholian service would be attractive. I'm just not convinced the buzzsaw really is better for that purpose. After all, if an enemy is attacking a wedding cake, they have to put ships in web, which will then be stuck there until either the web decays or they can be pulled out via tractor beam, which requires another ship and a lot of power. With a buzzsaw, the Klingons (or whoever), might voluntarily stick ships in web if they think it advantageous. Or they might try to stay solely within the clear passages between buzzsaw arms. So why is that better than a wedding cake, where they (unless Seltorian (maybe) or Andro (maybe)) have to put ships in the web?
John, If I haven't misunderstood you, could you go into more detail about why you think the buzzsaw is better for capturing ships? I'm still not sure I understand your argument.
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, June 12, 2023 - 04:21 pm: Edit |
Alan, again this is going faster than I can follow. I'm usually at work when I have time to read and respond.
Answering only the capture question, in a wedding cake, there's always an out for ships stuck in the web unless the Tholians get a blind spot from which to power the webs. Without that blind spot, the web will deteriorate to the point that a stuck ship can either power itself out or be pulled out if it is not destroyed.
In a buzzsaw, counting the asteroids from the inside to the outside, there's a sweet spot between asteroids 4 and 6 of the inside strand in which the attacking ships are braving the minefield, but cannot get a shot at the base should they dive into the web strand closest to the base. After the ship is crippled by mines and Tholian weapons fire, the ship may be pulled or pushed into the strand nearest the base. With the web strands at 35 ASP, even if the Tholian ship doing the pull/push triggers a mine, it will be protected by the web. Once stuck, the attacker's ship will also be protected from mine explosions and ship explosions as well. From here it can be ignored until the main battle is over. My understanding of the rules for self destruction and friendly fire does not allow either option at this point. After the main forces of the attacker disengage, the ships stuck in the web may be captured at the Tholian's leisure. Any attempt to rescue the ship or crew will require the rescuing ship to take the same path through the minefield, receive Tholian weapons fire, and risk getting shoved into the web, too.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 13, 2023 - 04:12 pm: Edit |
John,
Thanks for the reply, but I have to dispute your conclusions.
No. The rescue ship does not have to take the same path, unless the Klingon mishandles the ship actually moving down the passage between strands. Suppose that ship has taken damage to the point where advancing further down the passage risks its capture of destruction. The Klingon ship moves into the outer strand (the one further from the base) and becomes stuck there. The Klingon then sends the rescue ship adjacent to the trapped ship, in a clear hex outside the buzzsaw. If the rescue ship has adequate power available to put 35 points into tractor beam*, it can then pull the trapped ship into its own hex even if the web is full strength. To the extent feasible, the Klingons will try to time this so the rescue ship approaches the buzzsaw after the phaser-4s (or at least most of them) have already fired for that turn.
Quote:Any attempt to rescue the ship or crew will require the rescuing ship to take the same path through the minefield, receive Tholian weapons fire, and risk getting shoved into the web, too.
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 02:17 pm: Edit |
Alan, I look forward to reading that term paper.
While everything you described for pulling a ship from a buzzsaw is true, you ignored or neglected that I said the attacking ship will need to be pulled/pushed into the minefield channel strand closer to the base. It won't go obligingly. From there, if a rescue attempt is still to be undertaken, it will require another ship to enter the outer strand and 70 energy points to pull the first victim from the web into the minefield channel from range 2. Then the ship being rescued will need to enter the outer strand, and both ships extracted from that strand. What's that, 4-5 turns under the gentle caresses of those P-4s? Did you bring your MD7X?
Another thing to consider is an F&E rule which will have to be considered. It is “(512.32) TRAPPED: Crippled ships in the web cannot be withdrawn from the Battle Force (even between rounds) unless an uncrippled ship or ships (each with a defense factor no more than two points lower than the trapped ship) outside of the web (but in the Battle Force) is assigned (at the end of the battle round) to pull them out of the web. The towing ship (or ships) is (are) designated before damage is resolved, and if destroyed, that ship cannot pull the cripple out of the web. This is an exception to (302.34). A tug can pull any size ship out of the web; an LTT can pull any ship with up to ten defense factors out of the web.” This does not translate “exactly” into SFB, but it is close enough. The operative point is “ships in the web cannot be withdrawn from the Battle Force (even between rounds)”. The Tholians are not required to destroy or capture any stuck ships, and those ships occupy command slots of the next battle round. The next battle force will be weaker. Fewer ships will be mobile.
The only time a similar situation becomes available to a wedding cake is when the attacker enters the 6 hex inner web, or if the Tholians create their golden blind spot.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 03:32 pm: Edit |
John,
A couple of points.
1. I wouldn't say that I "ignored or neglected" your comment about pulling the attacking ship into the closer strand. I was fully aware of it. I just think you will find it very difficult to pull that off against a Klingon who is experienced fighting Tholians. I should specify that one of my "entering assumptions" is that the Klingons (or whoever the Tholians are at war with) will have vastly more "mobile units" attacking any defended Tholian base, than the Tholians will have defending it. They will have a much larger economy and fleet, and if they do show up at a base with strong mobile forces defending, they go elsewhere while leaving behind enough mobile forces to deal with any Tholian forces that try to leave the vicinity of the base. The Tholians just don't have the resources to be strong everywhere and the Klingons can pick off the "low-hanging fruit" while "quarantining" the strong bases so the Tholians can't get fuel or spare parts to them. Those bases may have stockiled a lot of supplies and be able to hold out for a considerable time. But they can't actually have unlimited fuel/spare parts/etc. and eventually those bases (and their ships/fighters/PFs) must weaken if the Tholians can't get resupply ships to them. A slow process but better than trying suicidal assaults against strongly-held bases.
2. I note that there are a lot of F&E rules that don't quite match what happens at the SFB level, and that a goodly percentage of those concern Tholian webs. This doesn't mean either SFB or F&E is "wrong". With games of such different scales, some disconnect is inevitable. Since this is an SFB discussions (F&E doesn't even recognize any difference between a base surrounded by a wedding cake and one surrounded by a buzzsaw), I think the SFB rules need to take precedence. This doen't mean discussion about how F&E handles something are irrelevant. They can throw useful light on an issue. But where there is discrepancy (as in pulling units out of web) the SFB rules should govern.
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 03:56 pm: Edit |
Alan, my claim that you're thinking only in single scenarios stands in the face of your suggested evidence to the contrary. This isn't an insult. How mane "scenarios" does it take to redeploy Klingon forces from the Romulan front to the Hydran front? The question doesn't make sense because of a flawed premise. You have confused mini-campaign with strategic, and single scenario with tactical.
A question I should have asked earlier is if you play Federation and Empire. Where some players of both try to bring SFBisms to F&E, I'm trying to bring an F&Eism to SFB, that being the F&E battle hex being an SFB mini-campaign. So here's the question, do you play F&E?
The mini-campaign is tentatively titled, "ASSAULT ON A DEFENDED STARBASE". It's an offshoot of (SG8.0) "ASSAULT ON A STARBASE". What follows is my introduction to the mini-campaign. It is word for word the introduction of (SG8.0), adding only the last sentence, "The most practiced military action, and one that has seldom occurred, is the assault on a starbase by a main battle fleet. Endless debates are carried on in the command schools and service academies of all of the fleets as to the capability of fleet forces to destroy one of the “indestructible” starbases. The few actual assaults, some of which have been successful, are endlessly analyzed.
One of the problems in such an assault is that the attacking forces cannot exceed the command capabilities of their flagship, limiting the size of the force. Another problem is that starbases are seldom undefended."
Believe it or not, this does tie into our wedding cake/buzzsaw debate. With a well defended wedding cake, the first battle(s) will be about the outer ring. If the first battle has the Tholian weapons status low enough, the battle may be about both outer rings. It will take the Tholians too much time to re-spin those rings before battle resumes should they deteriorate to 0 and dissipate. If they do re-spin either or both, they will be too weak be of much service, and easily dropped again.
After the first round of battle with a buzzsaw, the attacker can expect all other rounds to have the webs above 32 ASP, and most likely at 35 ASP.
In other news, I agree that the historical outcome of (SH6.0) has too few Klingon casualties, and possibly too few Tholian casualties as well. The web rules changes does work to the Tholian's advantage. Give SPP the benefit of the doubt.
Another possible use of the asteroids is to make spinning the webs easier. Any web which is not reinforced to ASP 1 for 7 turns collapses. The anchors allow an incomplete web to be reinforced before it is finished, and then extended per (G10.118).
Mines are not free, but putting a nail on their price is difficult. There's the (M6.31) cost chart. Then there's the (M6.32) discount. Then there's the (M6.33) discount. Then there's the Annex #6 costs:
MINES CARRIED ON SHIPS
Each transporter bomb (limited by M3.1) ................... 4
Each nuclear space mine (minelayers only) ............... 8
One NSM on Romulan (M2.73, .74, .76) ship ............. 8
Each PA mine (limited by M3.1 and M10.11) .............. 4
Each Y-transporter bomb (limited by M3.1) ................ 3
One Y-NSM on Romulan (M2.73, .74, .76) ship .......... 7.
I think you over estimate the number of mines needed for a buzzsaw.
The point you were trying to make about mines and redeployment of mobile forces doesn't make sense. It's an apples and oranges thing. You use static defenses to permit the mobile forces to be deployed elsewhere. Read the general description for monitors.
I think this gets me caught up. If I missed anything, remind me.
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 04:08 pm: Edit |
Alan, I agree that in SFB those rules should govern. I just put the whole F&E rule down and then pointed out the important part. You didn't disagree. Every ship stuck in a web takes up a command slot.
I never said capturing would be easy, just easier with a buzzsaw. The rest of your first point is answered in F&E.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 08:08 pm: Edit |
I have some thoughts here.
If this is a mini campaign. Were the Klingons are trying to take out a Tholian BS. Where both sides have a enough Points to buy a fleet with extras.
As the Tholian has a full 12 ship fleet. The web defense and Minefield. The Klingons have more ships then the flag ship can control in a battle. So has reserve ships. Using only G17 combat repairs and tactical repairs'.
The Klingons attack take out parts of the minefield. Pull back reorganize the battle line and attack again. The Klingon has a Tug with cargo pod and a repair pod. With a load of extra drones.
How does the Tholians replace the Mines lost in the first assault and later rounds.
You are saying the Buzzsaw relies more on mines then does the Wedding cake. Would this then be a liabilty for the buzzsaw?
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, June 14, 2023 - 09:25 pm: Edit |
Gregory, give me time to finish my idea and put it before ADB for approval. I'm having to go through both F&E and SFB rulebooks to make sure I have as many points covered as possible, and I don't have a whole lot of time to do so.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 10:33 am: Edit |
John,
To respond to one of your points (response to others to follow in later posts):
No, I don't play F&E. Now, if I were commenting on F&E tactics, that might be a serious issue. But I don't think it disqualifies me from citing F&E in the way I have been doing here, in what is essenttially an SFB discussion. Take the matter of pulling trapped ships out of a web. In F&E the key parameter in determining whether this is possible is comparison of the defense factors. But in SFB the key parameters are available power, and comparison of the size clases. Defense factor in F&E is only a "stand in" for these and gives approximately the same results some of the time. But anomalies will occur, and my lack of knowledge of F&E details won't keep me from recognizing that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in F&E a "healthy" F5 can pill a crippled F5 out of a web. In SFB it cannot (if the web is at full strength). It just doesn't generate enough power to do so, regardless of relative defense factors. Or to look at the matter from the other side, I believe that in F&E a "healthy" D7 can not pull a crippled C8 out of a web. (Again, please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong). But in SFB that D7 could pull a C8 out of a web. It has enough power (just barely) and is only one size class smaller. Oh, by the way,
(from your 2:17 PM post yesterday). "Or ships"? In SFB it would have to be one ship. A whole squadron of F5s could not pull a single F5 out of a full strength web in SFB.
Quote:... unless an uncrippled ship or ships...
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 01:54 pm: Edit |
Alan, you tend to miss the points I'm making, even when they are spelled out. For the F&E rule for ships stuck in web, I specifically said, 'The operative point is “ships in the web cannot be withdrawn from the Battle Force (even between rounds)”.' It should have been abundantly clear that operative point I quoted was my point.
In F&E all combat for a battle round, the equivalent of a scenario in SFB, is resolved with a single die roll. My point is that your comment, "Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in F&E a "healthy" F5 can pill a crippled F5 out of a web. In SFB it cannot (if the web is at full strength)." isn't applicable because you cannot determine web strength for a battle round in F&E. You assumed the web is full strength during the entirety of the equivalent SFB scenario. In a past post I detailed how a WS-3 wedding cake web can be lowered. You have not done the same for a buzzsaw.
This missing of my spelled out points isn't limited to this event. When you asked about why I believe buzzsaws are better for capturing, I specifically said that the ship to be captured may be pulled into a web blind spot. I said “may” as in “not an absolutely forgone conclusion”. Obviously your Klingon ship isn't going to dive into that sweet spot I defined. If your Klingon ship has the power and time, or if your Klingon ship has a conveniently positioned allied ship willing to dive into the remote strand of web to tractor rotate it away from the base, it may reach the remote strand. I said “may” as in “not an absolutely forgone conclusion”. When you have web to the left, web to the right, mines in front, a base scratching your hull like an iceberg did to the Titanic, and a Tholian ship of equivalent or larger size class bearing down your throat, Klingon experience won't be of much help.
With the exception of low weapons statuses, you haven't detailed how to take down a buzzsaw. You don't need a diagram, number the web hexes and/or anchors as you please and tell us how you did so.
Also, with a low weapons status, your second fallback of the inner web ring won't be as much help as you think. The attacking ships won't be trying to go through that web, just into it en masse. That web won't stop direct weapons fire out of the web, just seeking weapons if it can be powered up in time.
Addressing part of your point #1 above, “(410.4) EFFECT OF BASES Units stacked with a friendly planet or base (e.g., starbase, sector base‡, battle station, base station‡, stellar fortress‡) and
the base itself are always in supply regardless of whether or not that base has a supply path. (Mobile bases are not self-supplying.) This includes captured planets as long as a PDU has been
deployed there. Exception: see (410.54) for bases in allied territory.” Since the Tholians do not have bases in allied territory, and likely won't, the last sentence can be ignored. This precludes the non-combat siege you described. A hex on the F&E map may not contain units from both sides from one turn to the next. Although a blockade is sound thinking, the scale of F&E makes it unworkable in SFB. I hate to think of the reams of paper needed for the energy allocation sheets.
Before, I gave you kudos for intellectual integrity. Those kudos now have an asterisk next to them. When I requested that you “please share your tactical ideas for attacking and defending both types of web patterns”, your response of, “I don't really have much to say about defending a buzzsaw because... why would I ever do that?” is a cop out. I do not respect cop outs. It is a valid mental exercise to take the opposite position that you carry and defend it. I'm giving you a chance to redeem yourself now.
All in all during our discussion you've claimed the superiority of your position, but you haven't actually defended it. Your refutations of my points fail to acknowledge my positions by neglecting what I have said in favor of going on your own unrelated tangents. SMH.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 07:30 pm: Edit |
John, part of the problem is that we have too many separate points being debated at once. So each of us is discussing the points he thinks are important and tending to discount the other guys points, which he thinks are irrelevant, or nearly so. Then we each think the other guy is deliberately ignoring our own, oh-so-obviously-important points; when it's more likely a combination of disagreeing about whether the point under contention really is important, plus some internet-induced misunderstanding.
As it happens, I think most (well, a lot of them, anyway) F&E rules concerning web are partially or even largely irrelevant to the tactical SFB issues. Things happen in F&E web assaults (according to descriptions posted in the forums, by people who are F&E players), that just wouldn't happen in SFB (based on my own past experiences playing base defenses in SFB). So when you quote how something web-related works in F&E, and I know from experience that it wouldn't play out like that in SFB, I don't really regard it as useful to spend a lot of time discussing it.
Dismayed as I am to learn that I lack integrity (or at least have earned an asterisk), I do want to offer some defense to the charge of "copping out". You want me to discuss how I would conduct certain actions without going into any detail about the specifics you want me to address. For example, in what year is the scenario taking place? What forces do I have available, and what does the enemy have available? Is there a time limit due to expected arrival of reinforcements? Can I (as the attacker) bring allies? (Lyran ships with ESGs are very useful for clearing mines, but you have to use them carefully.) Depending on how these questions ar answered, my tactics might be very different. I could spend hours of real time on each one of your four different situations (though partly this is because I am a slow typist...), and believe it or not I do have a life (well, almost... sort of...). So I want to spend whatever time I devote to this board discussing aspects that I think are... interesting. I am quite interested in the problems of attacking or defending a wedding cake. I am also interested in the methods for attacking a buzzsaw, since I could conceivably find myself playing as the opponent of a Tholian who does like that defense. But since I don't like it myself, I am not much interested in spending time discussing how I would defend a buzzsaw... at least not until someone convinces me it is better than a wedding cake.
And if that's a "cop out" that forfeits your respect for me, well, that's the way it goes.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 07:49 pm: Edit |
As to attacking a buzzsaw; it's a mine clearing problem that will require multiple waves. The first wave maps (to the extent possible) the minefield and starts clearing it. When it has taken casualties to the point that it needs to withdraw, it is immediately replaced by the second wave to continue the mine clearing process. Then a third wave, fourth wave, etc.; until the mine field has been breached sufficiently for the Klingons to attack the base itself. Depending on Tholian forces, the Klingons will probably take huge losses. But I believe they would take even greater losses assaulting a well-defended wedding cake; and they shouldn't attack a well-defended Tholian base in the first place unless the strategic importance of the base justifies suffering huge losses.
But the details of how they conduct the mine clearing operations? Yes, actually I DO want an actual annotated wedding cake map to describe those. And calling my positon a "cop out" is... unlikely... to change my mind on that score.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 07:57 pm: Edit |
By the way, you asked in your 2:17 PM post from ysterday;
It's the STX that is reallY death to minefields, with X-tech sensors, X-mauler reserve power, and X-tech ESGs. But it's so expensive and would likely draw so much Tholian phaser-4 fire (and phaser-1 fire from Tholian ships and PFs) that the Klingons might have a difficult job convincing the Lyrans to commit it to a Tholian base assault.
Quote:Did you bring your MD7X?
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 15, 2023 - 09:54 pm: Edit |
I just realized that in responding to your 1:54 PM post I had neglected to respond to a couple of points from your 3:56 PM post from yesterday.
You didn't like my example about the Klingons having to deploy ships to the Hydran front, and the Tholians responding by redeploying some of their own forces.
But flawed... why? Note that it doesn't matter that the Klingons have gone to the Hydran front. It matters that they have gone... somewhere, and are no longer an immediate threat to the Tholians. The Hydran example was just one hypothetical possibility as to why The Klingons might have to reduce their forces threatening the Tholians.
Quote:The question doesn't make sense because of a flawed premise.
Possibly I do. So how many mines do you think are needed for a buzzsaw? If you're going to insist I describe my tactics for both web attack and defense, with different web configurations (an undertaking that could require significant time to adequately address), you ought to be able to at least answer that.
Quote:I think you over estimate the number of mines needed for a buzzsaw.
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, June 17, 2023 - 12:18 pm: Edit |
Alan, I will admit that the internet induces misunderstanding. That's always an issue over the net.
Webs in F&E are abstractions. They are also much weaker than they are in SFB. I agree that when things work differently in the two games that discussing those differences is irrelevant, when things work identically in the two games, the point can be critical. Specifically, a ship stuck in the web must be part of the next command ship's battle force. I quoted the entire rule so that I could not be accused of bias by omission, and then I pointed out the specific part I was bringing to the discussion.
A discussion I had with SPP gave me the tactical idea for the Tholians not to destroy or capture enemy ships stuck in webs if they can be rendered tactically harmless. By their still being part of the next round's battle force, they weaken the enemy's offensive power by 1 ship per stuck ship. With command limits as they are, a single ship is a big deal; multiple ships can be catastrophic in both games.
The details you listed for discussing how you would attack or defend a position are called "analysis paralysis." You can discuss generalities without resorting to a broad brush generalization.
Also, to be fair, I put an asterisk on your "intellectual integrity." You don’t want to think about how to defend a buzzsaw because you think the wedding cake is superior in all instances. That's poor thinking. Analyzing how you might defend a position gives you insight on how the other guy might defend that position. That insight will help you then determine how best to attack that position.
I'm not sure mine clearing will be the best way to bring down a buzzsaw. The attacking force will be spending too much time too close to a bunch of P-4s and slew of smaller phasers, all of which are giving unanswered shots, to waste time on mines. True, they could try to clear mines and then turn away into the remote strand or back out.
One thing I noticed (or more accurately 3 things combined) when doing my research is that automatic mines are triggered when a unit enters a hex within its detection range, that a unit can only set off one mine at a time, and that a die roll of 1 always triggers a mine, even with the minesweeper bonus. With the minefields as dense as they'll be in a buzzsaw channel, maybe 5 mines or more per hex, it's almost impossible NOT to trigger a mine. The attacker may as well say, "•••• the torpedoes! Full speed ahead."
This brings up the question of the chosen detection range for the automatic explosive mines. If the range is 1, a unit may trigger a mine from the hex it is leaving. This will cause a blast affecting that ship and any unit closer than 3 hexes behind. There should be at least 2 hexes between the attacker's ships heading in at any speed so a single mine can only damage a single unit.
I chose the MD7X as a ship which could pull another ship from a 35 ASP web from 2 hexes away. The STX would work, too.
Your premise for your redeployed forces is flawed because you contrasted it with a single scenario situation. How many SFB turns does it take to redeploy forces from one theater to another?
Based on what I would expect the size of the attacking forces to be, I would expect a BS to be protected by 2 mine packages, a BATS by 2-3, a sector base by 3, and a SB by 6.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 05:08 am: Edit |
Reluctantly, I have decided to surrender to John on one point. I am going to describe, at least partially, my preferred approach to attacking a buzzsaw, even though I can't post an annotated buzzsaw map, as I would like to do. I have come to the conclusion that while attempting a purely verbal description of the approach, with no map to reference, may result in misunderstandings of my intent, John already seems to be making some incorrect assumptions about the method I would use. So it comes down to weighing a possible misunderstanding against a certain one.
Tactics can vary depending on (among several other factors) the year the assault takes place. For this analysis, I am assuming late-GW or ISC Pacification. This helps the Tholians in that it eases the energy burden for supporting the buzzsaw and it helps the Klingons (assumed attacker) because it means X-ships are available. For a Middle Years assault (especially pre-Y160), some of the tactics described here would be implemented differently. But the "big picture" approach would be the same.
As has already been discussed, I believe assaulting a strong, well-established Tholian defense is going to have to be done in waves. Since a buzzsaw defense depends heavily on its minefield, the task of the initial wave is to map, to the extent feasible, the minefield; and start the mine clearance phase. At some point the first wave will have taken enough damage that the Klingons will withdraw it and bring in a second wave (some of the second wave ships may in fact have been in the first wave but suffered little or no damage and are still combat-capable). The process continues until the 3rd or 4th (or higher for a really nasty defense) wave can actually hit the base itself.
Mapping the Minefield
An X-ship can detect automatic mines, which are far and away the most common type in a "standard" mine package, from 10 hexes away (if it is moving at speed-6 or less) and can make a detection attempt every four impulses, each detection attempt costing one point of power. A small squadron of X-ships orbits the base at approximately range-12, (This range may change a little according to a couple of factors, the most important being composition of the Tholian mobile forces). At that range, and taking into account the reduction in Tholian phaser damage when firing through non-adjacent web, the ships will take little damage from the phaser-4s while locating almost all those automatic mines that could interfere with the Klingons reaching a hex from which they can hit the base.
The Tholian ships can move out to just behind the outermost buzzsaw strand and engage with phaser-1s. But in general the Klingons, due to their slow speed as well as the base's limited power and number of special sensors, will keep this damage to "survivable" levels through ECM and shield reinforcement.
Also, the Tholian's own minefield may interfere with this. The Klingon will keep careful track of Tholians which "should" have triggered already-detected automatic mines as this could (if the Tholian doesn't roll for triggering his own mines) reveal information about the detection range of those mines or the size classes for which they are set.
Mine Clearance - Phase-1
After clearing all detected mines outside the buzzsaw (I will (well... I might...) discuss the Tholian placing mines ouside the buzzsaw in a later post), the Klingon proceeds to clear all detected mines actually in the three outermost legs of one of the strands. Explosive mines are not a problem in this phase because the Klingon is clearing from the hexes adjacent to the strand and any explosive mines actually in the strand will have their explosive strength reduced by the web strength. The Klingons cannot clear command-detonated mines this way and they can still take damage from captor mines. But again, most of the damage will be from the base and from Tholian ships. Once all automatic mines are cleared from the three outermost legs of one strand, Ths Klingons move on to...
Mine Clearance - Phase-2
I stated earlier in this post that it seemed to me that John was making incorrect assumptions about the method I would use to clear enough mines to hit the base. Here's where that comes into play. Based on his earlier posts, I think John believes I would have to move down the passage between strands to clear it. Instead, I move ships into the cleared hexes of the outermost strand. From there, they can clear the passage while suffering no damage from any explosive mines in it, because the ships are, again, protected by the strength of the web from any explosions except those in the hex the ships occupy. They can't clear command-detonated mines this way (for that, they will have to move down the package) and previously undetected command-detonated explosive mines in the strand itself can detonate at full strength against ships I have moved into their hexes. But you can only place one command-controlled mine per hex. My ships may be hurt, but hey can weather that level of damage. In his 12:18 PM post from 17 June, John mentioned
, but only one can be command-detonated. The automatic explosive mines can't hurt me (at least, not until the web decays significantly, and I don't expect to be there that long) and the captor mines are rare and expensive. Also, they don't have the one-time "crunch" of a large explosive mine and are therefor easier to "brick" against.
Quote:... maybe 5 mines or more per hex...
| By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 05:03 pm: Edit |
Alan, that is a bold approach with some merit. It's also one I hadn't thought of.
This method also benefits from the fact that since the web does indeed protect the attacker's ships, the sweepers need only fire a single P-3 at each explosive mine to cause it to detonate.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 07:00 pm: Edit |
With a Lyan BC (or larger) ship (4 ESGs), one may not even map where the mines are as redius-1 ESGs clear a path for following ships ...
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 19, 2023 - 07:28 am: Edit |
Radius one ESG will hit the strands of the Buzzsaw on both sides.
Radius zero should clear the path.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, June 19, 2023 - 08:17 pm: Edit |
Actually, ESGs ignore the webs (D23.85), and cannot past through them, plus any mines in the web would have to be stronger than the web strength to affect the Lyran (or any ship).
| Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation |