This topic is an adjunct of sorts to the "Omega Threat File" thread. But I'd argue that it would be best to expand upon it in is own thread, rather than risk derailing that one.

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As with the other thread, the premise here is simple: what if, rater than crashing through the Galactic Energy Barrier (in Alpha or in Omega) in Y79, the Holdfast Sphere were to arrive in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud instead?

How might the "LMC-Tholians" interact with the various Module C5 empires?

What might that mean for the Neo-Tholians, the Seltorians, and/or the Tholians of Draco?

And how might the Andromedan invasion, and/or the later appearance of the Operation Unity task forces, mean for the Tholians (and/or Seltorians) in this instance?

Of course, the Tholians do historically show up in the LMC during Operation Unity. Although how much of a focus they keep on the LMC post-Unity, in light of their plans to establish ongoing contact with the Tholians of Draco, remains to be seen.

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So, if one were to assume that the Holdfast Sphere had enough "spare" time to pick and choose its own way onto the LMC hex map, the question would then be where would be the best spot to arrive.

On the one hand, with no Energy Barrier to worry about, the Sphere would arrive more or less intact. But on the other hand, according to the LMC timeline, the number of viable options might already be somewhat limited as of Y79.

By that time, the southern border between the Baduvai Imperium and the Eneen Protectorates had been heavily fortified by the Line - as series of bases built at great expense by each side, so as to keep the other at bay. However, the northern region was only beginning to be colonized, and fought over, by both empires; the Baduvai northward expansion had been held up by conflict with the Uthiki Harmony, whereas the Eneen had waited until some time after the Chomak Community abandoned its holdings in the region in Y67. Meanwhile, the Maghadim Hives, on the inside of the Core radiation shell, remained unaware of the empires beyond the Core (and vice versa).

The status of the distant Chomak Cluster at this time is as yet unclear, though hopefully a future LMC module might address this topic someday.

This leaves the Tholians with two options:

1: Arrive in the Fringe region near what would later be marked as the Neutral Worlds, and attempt to seize the region before any of the three Magellanic Powers can stake their claim in the area,

or

2: Arrive in the Fringe region near the Chomak Cluster, in order to attempt a "private war" against the Chomak.

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Of those, the Chomak option might be a non-starter, depending on how strong the Community is as of Y79. Which might leave the Neutral Worlds as the more viable option.

In this, the Tholians would have a few things in their favour. As noted in (MS1.26), LMC warships are no faster strategically (operationally?) than the Andromedans when off the RTN; in other words, they would be slower than Tholian ships in that regard. Further, with the LMC empires operating under the fleet restrictions marked in (MS1.22), Size Class 3 ships in the Baduvai, Eneen, and/or Maghadim fleets would be at a premium - at least by Galactic (Alpha or Omega) standards. Plus, a combination of web and the trusty phaser-1 would help keep Baduvai mass drivers and Eneen type-E plasma torpedoes at bay.

Would all of this be enough to let the Tholians drive the Baduvai and Eneen from the Neutral Worlds - and, later on, to keep the Maghadim invasion forces at bay?

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In terms of technology, the pressures of the battles against the Magellanic Powers would likely be at least as attritional as those against the Klingon Empire in the Alpha Octant. Which might lead the "LMC-Holdfast" to seek a replacement for the particle cannon. (Although, with no Barrier, they'd still have those particle cannons installed on the Holdfast Sphere.)

With the Maghadim on the other side of the Core radiation shell, the two main sources of technology would be the Baduvai and the Eneen. So the two main choices of direct-fire heavy weapon would be the Baduvai charged particle accelerator, or the Eneen variable-focus neutron beam. Both are usable in Jumokian Pirate option mounts, yet each has its own set of quirks to consider.

CPAs are available in three sizes, though only two are used by the Baduvai normally. CPAs take one, two, or three points of warp power per turn to arm, depending on how many firing chambers are present and which arming level is being aimed for. CPAs cannot be held, but can use rolling delay. So one can expect a set arming budget for each ship so armed.

NBs cost five points of power from any source to arm in a single turn; there is a "cool-down" turn after each firing. The weapon can be fired in narrow aperture mode (like a disruptor), or in wide aperture mode (like a phaser). The Eneen designed this weapon's range brackets to overlap with those of their own warp-tuned laser, so the Tholians would have to figure out which ranges best suit when using it with their own phasers.

Perhaps the Tholians might steal both weapons: using the NB as a "disruptor" equivalent, and either the CPA-2 or CPA-3 for their "photon" variants?

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In terms of bases and support units, there are two parallel design trees among the Module C5 empires: one branch for the Baduvai and Eneen, and a second (larger and more powerful) branch developed by the Maghadim.

Since plunging the Sphere into the Core radiation shell is a Very Bad Idea, and since the Maghadim campaigns in the Neutral Worlds only last so long before they are historically driven back, the Tholians are most likely to lean into the Baduvai and Eneen templates - at least until, or unless, they build up the capacity to construct M81-style base stations, battle stations, and/or starbases.

To that end, modifying some of the Baduvai/Eneen-type base SSDs in Module C5 would not be entirely unfeasible. While one could assume the Tholians learn to make use of the same civilian and military Pinnaces used as cargo transports outside of the Core region.

In the longer term, should these Tholians be allowed to dig up the old data files on M81-standard freighters and transports for use in the LMC, or would they be obliged to make do with Pinnaces and other LMC-native general units?

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In terms of warship designs, the Tholians here would be as driven to field "two-hull" cruisers, as they did in the Holdfast.

However, while the Baduvai and Eneen field "war" classes much earlier than seen in Alpha or Omega, the Tholians might not be able to match this with their own war cruisers righ away - as those historically required help from the 312th.

Further, with no local Size Class 2 to deal with (outside of the occasional Jndarian Caravan), would the Tholians be "inspired" to field their own "three-hull" dreadnoughts? But then, they do remember having dreadnoughts and battleships back in the home galaxy, so that might be enough to lead them down this design path...

On top of that, no LMC power deploys fighters or PFs until after the Andromedan conquest - so these Tholians would be obliged to face the first wave of Andro invasion without either of those attrition units to call upon.

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The Andromedans launch their invasion - as it happens, in a pincer movement launched from the Fringe area near the Neutral Worlds - in Y146.

Even if the LMC-Holdfast were to hold out against the Magellanic Powers by that time, dealing with the Andros would be a major challenge. But at least there wouldn't be any Dominators to face until the Y180s or so.

Still, it's likely that the Tholians would be defeated, obliging them to use their own versions of the same asteroid yards adopted by thee Magellanic exiles.

On the upside, hey might be inspired to develop their own fighters and (WBP-less) PFs in exile - which might help them re-take the Sphere once Operation Unity shows up.

And if the Seltorians show up in the midst of the Andromedan occupation of the Cloud, perhaps the Andromedans might do the Tholian exiles a favour by getting rid of the Hive Ship before it can settle in... leaving a few holdout Seltorian ships hanging round the Fringe also?

(Not necessarily with Seltorians flying them, if their crews die out in the absence of newly-bred crews to replace them.)

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So, while I don't think it would be as viable in the long term as some of the Omega contingencies speculated upon in the other thread.

Still, I might wonder if the Tholians might have a fighting chance here, in terms of at least lasting long enough to make things interesting in a new and dynamic tactical environment.

Are there any thoughts on the above, or do you ave your own ideas on what a would-be Tholian (and/or Seltorian) presence in the LMC might be?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:
I think you are overlooking one thing. Since the Tholian sphere did hot "crash through" the energy barrier, it remains mobile. And there is thus no reason it has to remain in a hostile neighborhood (and to Tholians, any neighborhood not dominated by Tholians is hostile). Not having web casters and in a more densely inhabited space in the LMC, the Tholians would likely flee after their strongest ships (2xNDD, 3xNFF) were damaged or destroyed. The Tholians only set up light housekeeping in our galaxy because THEY HAD NO CHOICE. It is probable that if the sphere had remained mobile they would not have stayed in Klingon territory to begin with. That they did was more a matter of an "act of God." The sphere broke through the energy barrier survived, and its Carreening uncontrolled through the space beyond dropped them where they had time to make ready, despite the loss of a considerable portion of their survivors.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 03:20 pm: Edit

SPP,

You are, of course, correct.

In this situation, it is quite possible that, so long as the Sphere's engines remain intact, the Tholians might well decide that the LMC is too hostile a neighbourhood for comfort, and thus avoid settling there entirely.

The question would then be where they might go next. Personally, I think an "early Draco" option would be of interest; as in, the Sphere heads directly to the Draco Dwarf satellite galaxy, founds the Tholiax colony a century early, and later on fights a "private war" against the Seltorians.

Although that scenario might require a thread of its own in order to cover it in more detail.

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However, so as to not have the "LMC-Holdfast" idea die off completely: what if the Sphere's engines were to break down somewhere in the LMC, obliging the Tholians to settle in?

It could be a mechanical issue, a result of an untimely encounter with a deep space phenomenon, or some other misfortune. If it effected the engines only, however, that might still leave the Sphere's main structure (and outer layer of fortifications) intact, thus placing the Tholians in a somewhat better defensive position to the one the early Holdfast was confronted with historically.

In any case, even if the engines were not entirely reduced to slag (as was the case in the historical Holdfast), the Tholians in this instance might be obliged to harvest the local resources needed to fix them - which, by default, might require them to "dig in" long enough to try and recover said resources. Depending on how serious a breakdown this might end up being, would they be able to get the engines running again in time to avoid the Andromedan conquest?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:
In your option, the Holdfast Sphere would not encounter Draco. Historically the Draco Dwarf star was not appealing to Tholians. The went there as a result of limited choice. The Tholians are more likely to have kept moving if they realized their sphere had a good chance of NOT SURVIVING the energy barrier. So if they made that choice the sphere is likely to continue onward to the next galaxy, which is not closer to us and further from the Seltorians. Would they run into an extinct empire (Juggernaut) or an expanding one (Andromedan) or the Zosman, or the Bolosco, or, or, ? I do not know.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, July 24, 2023 - 10:05 pm: Edit

SPP,

On the off chance that there were ever to be an opportunity to bring a "full" Triangulum Galaxy module to formal publication, one of the details which might be worth clarifying is whether or not M33 has a Barrier of its own - and, if so, how strong it is compared to those known to surround the Milky Way and M81 galaxies.

This might help inform a "what-if" scenario bringing the Tholians (and/or Seltorians) to Triangulum - or, indeed, how a potential Andromedan invasion of M33 might play out.

I wouldn't wish to get too side-tracked here - but in such a setup, I'd imagine the best the Tholians would hope for would be to show up in, or close to, Helgardian space, and see if the Helgrdians decide to extend "Protectorate" status over the Tholians.

The Imperium would likely seek to conquer the Tholians, or perhaps to (forcibly) integrate them as a new "autonomous province". And since Tholians cannot be infected by the Arachnids and have no "organic" DNA for the Mallaran Overmind to harvest, I'd expect both the Arachnid Worlds of Union and the Mallaran Empire to seek to destroy the Tholians outright.

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However, by my reading of the background data collected in the Tholian Master Starship Book, getting from M81 to the Milky Way was a major strain on the Sphere's resources, with many on-board systems cannibalized or re-purposed in order to keep things running for as long as they did.

In other words, even if there was enough "spare room" to facilitate an investigation of one or more of the Milky Way's satellite galaxies and/or globular clusters, I might wonder if they'd need to park the Sphere somewhere in the vicinity of our galaxy - at least long enough to harvest the resources needed for an onward push towards the next "full-size" galaxy.

In such a setup, perhaps Draco might work for them as a "pit-stop" option - one which might make for something more, once they get close enough to discover the world which historically became the Tholiax colony. (While Draco is, like M81, "north" of the Galactic plane, my reading of the historical data is that the Draco-Tholian survey ship Sojourner was the first Tholian ship to detect the presence of Tholiax itself.)

Speaking of the Galactic plane: since the LMC, like M31, is "below" the plane of the Milky Way, the Sphere in this instance would have to fly "past" the Galactic Rim in order to head "down" there. Still, after a 12 million light-year trip from M81, what's a few hundred thousand LY more between f(r)iends?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 10, 2023 - 12:18 pm: Edit

The intergalactic medium hosts a number of navigation hazards, albeit a a much lower density than inside a given galaxy. Be it in the form of rogue planetoids, black holes, or other such objects; "deep space life forms" such as the extra-galactic variant Banshees or the occasioal Space Lens; artificially-constructed dangers such as Death Probes or Planet Crushers; and unexpected phenomena such as Vortices or what have you.

Plus, it would appear (to me, at least) that there is a difference between the areas in the vicinity of a given galaxy and its nearby satellites - where, in the case of the Milky Way Galaxy at least, one might find the Magellanic Stream, the gigantic X-ray bubbles above and below the Galactic core, and so on and so forth - and the further depths of space between one major galaxy and the next.

So, for those seeking to cross the vast distances between one galaxy and the next, it would appear quite likely (again, to me, at least) that any given flight path would involve numerous course adjustments, temporary slowdowns or stoppages here and there (to effect repairs, to gather certain key resources, etc.), and other such hiccups along the way.

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While there is data in print covering the Holdfast Sphere's escape from M81, and of the events surrounding its fateful crossing of our galaxy's Energy Barrier, there isn't much data looking at the exodus flight in and of itself.

But I suspect that there were several "course corrections" and temporary pit-stops involved. However, it's likely that the Sphere was operating under passive fire control, so as to minimize the risk of detection - as opposed to the Seltorian Tribunal expeditions, who would be actively scanning for any sign of Tholian escapees.

So, the historical route from M81 to the Alpha Octant might not have been the optimal one - but it would still serve as the baseline against which other contingencies can be measured.

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On one end of the scale would be contingencies leading to a different Galactic octant of the Milky Way - such as the Omega ones discussed elsewhere on the BBS.

Presumably, the sum total of course corrections and flight adjustments in those alternate scenarios were just enough to set the Sphere upon a different arrival point to our galaxy, yet not enough to call the Tholians' (false) expectations of being able to cross the Barrier into question.

Actually, beyond the Omega contingencies already discussed elsewhere, perhaps one alternate option of interest might be for the Sphere to land in thee Sargasso Storm Zone. If one presumes the Tholians were fortunate enough to arrive in one of Sargasso's "clear" pockets, they'd find themselves confronted by the need to harvest resources from outside of this pocket while the storms are in abeyance (while fighting those species from other "clear" pockets in the process), so as to be able to survive the next round of storm activity.

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On a different point of the scale, some contingencies might lead to varying degrees of damage scored to the Sphere's engines - be it from a "monster" encounter, an unexpected run-in with a natural phenomenon, or perhaps a major breakdown for which the tools or materials needed to effect repairs are in short supply - which causes the Tholians both to forego making a Barrier crossing, and which compels them to stay in the vicinity of the Milky Way.

I might wonder if this would lead the Tholian crew "on duty" to raise a quorum's worth of their fellows from stasis, at least long enough to make a decision on how best to proceed. In which case, it's possible that, just as the Holdfast Assembly held a broad range of opposing views historically, different groups among the quorum might argue in favour of different options.

One group might argue in favour of selecting a larger satellite galaxy, with more local resources to harvest; such a viewpoint, if adopted, might lead to the LMC contingencies speculated upon in this thread.

In contrast, another group might advocate choosing smaller, less conspicuous satellite galaxy, where the odds of running into further trouble would be lessened. This, in my view, would (I hope) leave the door ajar for an early "Tholians of Draco" contingency also mentioned above.

Perhaps the choice made might depend on the degree of damage caused. If the Sphere's engines only need moderate repairs, a location suitable for a brief "pit-stop" would be sufficient. However, if the damage is more extensive, to the point that a final breakdown is a serious possibility, the quorum might be faced with a more lasting decision on where to establish their new home, and thus vote accordingly.

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And on the far end of the scale, it's possible that the key inflection point (or rather, the sum total of small points of inflection reaching a critical mass) would happen much earlier in the exodus - leading the Tholians to avoid the Milky Way entirely and head towards a different galaxy, such as Triangulum.

Actually, if one assumes that a "Holdfast of Triangulum" contingency led to the 312th, the Seltorians, and the Sojourner exiles going to M33 in turn, the Seltorians might find themselves targeted both by the Arachnid Worlds of Union and by the Mallaran Empire, but for very different reasons: as a potential source of "farmed" host bodies for the Arachnids, or as a source of valuable DNA to harvest in the case of the Mallarans.

So, in a bitter irony, just as Seltorian ships were originally designed to be able to capture enemy ships intact, so might they in turn be targeted by these new enemies in a manner which aimed to seize their crews while they are still alive...

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In summary, that would lead to varying branches from the historical timeline: one set leading to Omega, Sargasso, or perhaps Sigma; a second set leading to the LMC, Draco, or to another of the Milky Way's satellite galaxies; and a third set diverting away from our galaxy entirely and off to M33 or elsewhere.

Does this seem like a reasonable way to sub-divide such contingencies in a viable manner, or would some other approach be more valid instead?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 10, 2023 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Fire control:

The Tholian Sphere is NOT going to move through even sparsely populated space without active fire control. If the sphere, on passive fire control, collided with even a small bit of matter, the consequences do not bear thinking about. Note in SFB it is a given that a battleship in high warp can be utterly destroyed by a phaser-3 hit, which is why ships slow to combat speeds when near an enemy.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 10, 2023 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Put simply, would you risk all the Tholians in the universe for a small chance of being destroyed by a a micro meteor?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 10, 2023 - 06:09 pm: Edit

SPP:

I should have taken more care to consider the needs of the Sphere when moving under "operational movement" (as Federation and Empire would call it) on the one hand, and at "tactical" (SFB/FC) speeds on the other.

As you say, at "operational" speeds the dangers of not running active fire control (in terms of avoiding fatal high-warp collisions) greatly outweigh the increased risk of detection (by Seltorians or by anyone else) accrued through running active fire control while in transit.

However, in situations where the Sphere has to slow to "tactical" speeds (be it to effect repairs, to extract resources from a rogue planetoid, or perhaps to investigate an anomalous signal further along the Sphere's projected flight path), would it make sense for the Sphere to drop to passive fire control in such instances?

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And on a semi-related note: if the Sphere does occasionally have to stop, or at least to slow down, in order to investigate something, which (if any) of its attending ships would be sent to look into things?

While a patrol corvette would be less capable at carrying out such investigations than a Neo-Tholian destroyer or frigate, they would at least be more expendable - since the auto-forges can be used to build replacements, unlike the case with the NDDs and NFFs.

But then, I just double-checked the NFF SSD and was surprised not to see any lab boxes. Although, technically speaking, an NFF could separate into its component parts, and then have each part use one if its respective control boxes as a lab...

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 11, 2023 - 07:38 am: Edit

1) You aren't going to have Tholians as hosts for viruses or DNA supplies. Just too weird.

2) I would presume some of the Neo Tholians that accompanied the sphere were scouting ahead for the safest routes and places where they could pause and harvest resources.

3) One presumes that high warp speed you could direct AFC just to the frontal arc.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 11, 2023 - 03:39 pm: Edit

The Major Problem is the Tholians are too Biologically different to be assimilated by the Mallarns or the Sigvirons, and to hot for the Arachnids. As to the Tholian sphere. You are trying to split them from what has been recorded. Essentially, the Tholians would have realized they could not stop from their earlier and disastrous attempt to rally outside their home galaxy. Doing so allowed their enemies to overhaul them and attack. The only reason they stopped here was their engines were slagged. Slowing down to send out scouts is a good way to allow their pursuers to catch up.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 12, 2023 - 12:56 pm: Edit

To be clear, I said that it was the Seltorians, not the Tholians, who would have to worry about Arachnid assimilation or Mallaran genetic harvesting.

Indeed, earlier in this thread, I said that since the Tholians are immune to Arachnid assimilation and have no DNA for the Mallarans to harvest, both empires would likely seek to destroy the Tholians outright.

Actually, over in the "Tholians in Omega" thread, I speculated on what a would-be "Sig-torian" contingency might look like. In contrast, just as the Sigs already see the Trobrin Empire as a major long-term threat (since, like the Tholians, the silicate Trobrin are immune to Sigvirion infection), the Sigs would likely wish to get rid of the Tholians also.

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My understanding is that, in the case of the Holdfast Sphere, they had succeeded in avoiding direct Seltorian pursuit - not that the Holdfast Tholians would have been aware of this, of indeed have been willing to take any chances.

Rather, the Torch expedition was, again by my understanding, pursuing the 312th to this galaxy; only upon arrival in the Alpha Octant did the Seltorians discover (and subsequently report back to the home galaxy about) the existence of the Holdfast Sphere.

But in any case, even if this was not the case, my point is that any inter-galactic flight - be it by various Tholian or Seltorian groups; by other exile and/or migrant groups such as the Bolosco or Zosmans; or even by the Andromedans in their attempts to construct an Intergalactic Trunk Line towards a target galaxy - would likely face similar challenges to that noted above for the Holdfast Sphere.

To give two examples:

While the Captain's Log #49 article on the Intergalactic Trunk Line states that there is little direct evidence on how the ITL was constructed (although the Federation and Klingons have different ideas on how this was done), it's likely that local conditions along the way forced the Andromedans to place ITL nodes where they had to, not necessarily where they wanted to.

Back in Captain's Log #41, the Seltorian Sage in command of the Hive Ship Star of Redemption, portrayed in the short fiction piece Fire in the Deep, was confronted by a sequence of Juggernaut encounters. While part of their response was to halt their advance after each battle (so as to recover as much salvage as they could in order to build replacement ships in time for he next battle), part of it also involved searching for cold rocks to melt down for resources, as well as to consider turning towards a dwarf galaxy 26 years from their current location - which they would, at best, not reach before facing at least two more Juggernaut encounters (and, if they survived, stopping to salvage the wreckage from each battle) along the way.

Now, I'm not saying that the Torch expedition had to fight its way to our galaxy - although at least one other Tribunal force apparently ran into a swarm of Banshees en route to... whichever target galaxy they were heading.

But even if the inter-galactic flight taken by the Torch expedition was peaceful (at least in terms of not getting shot at by anyone or any thing), I'd argue that even they had to slow or stop at various points along the way - though not necessarily at the same points the Tholians they were pursuing might have had to.

In other words, even the most uneventful Tribunal expedition would only go as fast as they were able to given its bespoke circumstances - not as fast as they might have been able to go at an "optimal" rate of travel.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 12, 2023 - 01:43 pm: Edit

In parallel to the discussion on how to account for the potential contingencies of the Tholians' intergalactic flight, I wanted to post a little more on the tactical aspects of what a would-be Tholian presence in the LMC's Neutral Worlds might entail.

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If one takes a look at the 3D model for the Eneen heavy cruiser on Shapeways, one can see that this ship has its neutron beam mounts set at 60* to port and to starboard. This accounts for the SSD placing these weapons in the LF+L and RF-R arcs respectively. While its pair of aft-mounted plasma-E torpedo launchers are themselves in split launch arcs, akin to those used for the aft-launching plasma-Fs on most ISC ships.

As noted in a previous post, neutron beams cost five points of power from any source to fire, and impose a "cool-down" turn after firing. Even with the use of HPRs (which are APRs that can be doubled in output, albeit at a risk of cascade effects if damaged), firing all four NBs in a single turn is an expensive proposition - not least since NBs cannot be held. So, in open space battles, a common Eneen tactic is to fire one pair of NBs in a given turn, to use that side's plasma-E launch to deter pursuit, and then to wait until the following turn to line up an oblique or broad-siding volley from the other side of the ship (and a deterring torpedo from that side's plasma-E launcher).

On a side note: plasma-Es arm over two turns, so one can seek to maintain a staggered set of arming cycles in tandem with the planned alternation of neutron beam volleys.

For a would-be Tholian use of captured neutron beam technology, a similar tactic might be best advised. As in, a neutron beam-armed version of the Tholian C would be advised to practice firing the port NB on one turn in an open space duel, and the starboard NB on the other.

However, for a NB-armed Tholian ship lurking behind a layer of web surrounding a Tholian base, lining up a volley of all of a ship's NBs along the forward centerline might be more viable - as well as being an unpleasant prospect for an enemy ship crossing a given layer of web.

I should note that, in Module C5, there are no Eneen or Jumokian ships shown as having direct-fire "swivel mounts" capable of firing NBs in arcs greater than 120*. So even for Tholian ships which in the Alpha Octant have 180* arcs for their disruptors (such as the destroyer or war cruiser), I would suggest obliging them here to use the same split arcs as the Eneen themselves are obliged to use. As in, a would-be neutron beam variant of the Tholian DD would, in my view, have its port NB set to LF+L, and its starboard NB set to RF+R.

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As for the charged particle accelerator:

The CPA-2 (which first appears in Baduvai use in Y101) requires a single option mount space, but cannot be used in "wing" option mounts. Yet it appears as two "boxes" on the SSD, to represent the paired firing chambers.

A CPA-3 (which actually appeared earlier than the CPA-2 in Baduvai service) requires two centerline adjacent option mounts; when installed, it appears as three "boxes" on the SSD, to represent three adjacent firing chambers.

As shown here on Shapeways, the Baduvai strike cruiser has CPA-2s on each of is outer nacelle mounts, and a single CPA-3 on its center warp nacelle mount.

Were the Tholians to make use of charged particle accelerator technology, I would expect them to use the CPA-2 exclusively - which, for ships without adjacent heavy weapon mounts, they'd be obliged to do at any rate...

Further, unlike the Eneen, the Baduvai place ship-mounted CPAs (of either type) in FA firing arcs. Indeed, it was the advent of this forward-facing firepower which drive the Eneen to adopt a side-firing doctrine in the first instance. So any firing arcs used for Tholian photon torpedo variants in the Alpha Octant should, in my view, be retained when swapping out these photons for CPA-2s.

In any case, even with the use of AWRs on CPA-armed variant ships, the Tholians would have to account for the consistent warp power arming budget to arm a given CPA (or to keep it under rolling delay). For example, if one took the photon torpedo destroyer variant from the Alpha Octant and replaced its photons with CPA-2s, the resulting ship would be obliged to pay six points of warp power per turn, if it wanted to arm (and/or rolling delay) both of these weapons at the same time.

But, for a CPA-armed ship lurking in or behind layers of web, this warp energy budget would be much less of a concern than it might be in open space.

So, while I would treat the charged particle accelerator as very much a secondary option relative to the neutron beam from a would-be Tholian perspective, I could at least see CPA-armed variants being used more prominently in support of Tholian bases.

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In terms of the local weapons the Tholians might need to watch out for, three in particular appear in mind:

The tachyon beam used by the Maghadim, if it fully hits, scores an equal amount of damage to both the facing and opposite arcs. As in, a full hit against facing #1 scores equal damage to facing #4, and so on and so forth. (A partial hit scores the facing damage only.)

The charged penetrator missile warhead for the mass driver - first deployed by the Maghadim, and later adopted both by the Baduvai and by the Jumokian pirates - acts like a spearfish drone in the Alpha Octant. Yet unlike a drone, which acts as an "on-map" seeking weapon and can be planned against accordingly, a mass driver volley has to be confronted in the same SFB impulse - which is less of an issue for ships nestled behind web, but perhaps more so in the absence of web casters or web snares in open space.

As for the Uthiki boson drill, this weapon has a "drill" element which against single-layer shields acts sort of like a shield cracker, plus a "bit" element (armed with a single point of warp power) that scores two points of internals. So if the Uthiki-Baduvai alliance sees a number of Uthiki ships sent to a would-be Tholian border, letting any of those ships get too close might not be the best of ideas...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, August 13, 2023 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Been thinking about the Tholians in the Magellanic Cloud, what sort of weapons might they adopt, and what-not. It is something fascinating, and I'm glad it was brought up.

For my 0.02 Quatloos worth (actually, less than that ), there are a couple odd things.

First: Please remember that it's "Hinted" that the Tholians were only able to adapt Disruptor technology to their ships courtesy of some Federation technical assistance. IN THEORY, the Jumokians MIGHT be willing to do the same, BUT...

Second: While, yes, some of the Magellanic heavy weapons are impressive on a one-for-one basis, how do they compare with the classic Phaser-1, particularly at the point blank ranges an assault on a webbed target demand.

Gary, you did mention the Shapeways miniatures, but also please remember that just the size might not mean everything. I mean, on the Disruptor Armed PC, the base PC sacrificed TWO of its Ph-1 to accommodate the Disruptor. Is this a problem brought on by trying to accommodate alien technology on native hulls?

A third thought is a lot less definitive, but I'd still like to share it.

When the Dyson Sphere arrived here in the Milky Way, as we all know, its passage through the Galactic Barrier is what blew it to Hades and beyond. What all may have gotten the Cosmic Finger is something we can only guess at.

Here's one of my guesses: the means to support and possibly build Neo-Tholian ships.

WHAT IF the Tholians retained the ability to produce Particle Cannon?

AND, here's the BIG thing , WHAT IF another thing that was lost in Canon (but remains in this alternity) is a lab that was researching the Shield Cracker in an attempt to uncover how the Seltorians were able to convert it into Web Breakers?

Hey, with Magellanic VRF, I suspect the Shield Cracker, which is immune to VRF IIRC, may become a potentially potent primary heavy weapon.

Anyhootch, those are just a couple of my insane (inane?) thoughts.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, August 13, 2023 - 08:42 pm: Edit

For what (little) it's worth, I'm very much not in favour of the concept that the Federation actually helped in any meaningful way with the Tholian acquisition or implementation of Klingon disruptor bolt technology. Not least since relations between the Holdfast and the Federation were by no means friendly at the time; this did not improve until the onset of the General War.

It's a separate thing for the Fedeation to provide photon torpedo launchers to the Tholians, since this is a weapon which the Feds actually build and operate. Indeed, had the Feds been minded to help the Tholians back in the Y110s (and had the Tholians been interested in accepting such help), would it not have made more sense for them to have helped them adopt photon torpedo technology instead?

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Historically, most of the working samples of particle cannon technology the Holdfast-to-be Tholians had left were mounted on the exterior of the Sphere itself, and were lost during the catastrophic crossing of the Barrier. Plus, things were so hectic with the Klingons in and after Y83 that those mounted on the NDDs and NFFs in early Holdfast service could not be taken out of service before the ships they were installed upon were themselves destroyed in combat. Which led firstly to the disastrous attempt to hack the files holding the data on how to build more particle cannons - and, after that, to the successful effort to acquire and implement Klingon disruptor bolt technology.

While it is true that, with no Barrier to cross, an engine breakdown obliging the Sphere to be parked in the LMC would presumably leave the particle cannons mounted on the Sphere's exterior intact, things would be quite hectic for the early Holdfast here also: between driving the Baduvai and Eneen from the Neutral Worlds (and keeping them out thereafter); dealing with various Jumokian pirate raids; and confronting two large-scale Maghadim invasions from across the Core radiation shell.

All of that - the first Maghadim war in particular - might lead to the kind of high attrition which would prevent the Tholians from reverse-engineering the particle cannon. Thus leading them to take a more serious look at the neutron beam, or to a lesser extent the charged particle accelerator, as an alternative.

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I would also be opposed to giving the Tholians shield crackers; better to save those for a would-be Seltorian incursion into the LMC.

Actually, one could speculate on what an "early" Seltorian incursion might have looked like. As in, what if a Nest Ship were to have parked itself in the Neutral Worlds at some point prior to the Andromedan conquest (or perhaps have been stranded there, if the Nest Ship were to have suffered an engine breakdown of its own), regardless of whether the Holdfast Sphere went there or not?

Indeed, there are "what-if" campaign suggestions in Module C5 which aren't too far removed from this contingency.

In which case, I would very much expect such Seltorians to make arming and firing their shield crackers against the outer shields of enemy LMC warships a high tactical priority...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 14, 2023 - 05:31 pm: Edit

The Seltorians, like the Tholians before the collapse, possess repair capability. If a Hive ship (or Nest ship) suffers such a catastrophic result that its engines "melt down) to slag the Seltorians can call for "help." From another Hive or Nest ship heading near by. Now of course near by could be five years or more before help would come. But the Seltorians have the advantage that when they start out the have prepared for breakdowns, the Tholians did not

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 16, 2023 - 06:42 pm: Edit

There is an interesting side topic in this discussion: how to account for the long-range subspace transmissions to and from the home galaxy, and/or between individual Hive and Nest Ships.

For example: when the historical Torch expedition reported back to M81, how long did it take for the signal to reach home - and, for that matter, for the Suzerainty government to send a reply advising that a follow-on Tribunal force was to be dispatched?

Also: would it be more likely that the authorities in the home galaxy would "relay" messages from one Tribunal expedition to another, if that was deemed easier to handle than having two or more Hive or Nest Ships on different outbound routes to communicate between one another at a distance?

For comparison's sake, the Sage in command of the Star of Redemption in the CL41 short fiction was in not-infrequent communication with the higher-ups back in M81 - and was being obliged to press forward to the point the Juggernauts said they had destroyed the Tholian exile group the Star had been pursuing, even in the face of diminishing returns in the face of repeated Juggernaut attacks. Although, the Sage was seriously considering abandoning this mission, regardless of the orders being sent from M81.

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Actually, I was wondering if a Vortex - of the kind seen in the cover fiction in Captain's Log #38 - could be used to explain a contingency in which a given Nest Ship might find itself dumped in the LMC in the pre-Andromedan era.

If such a Nest Ship were to be faced with major engine trouble upon arrival, pre-empting a prompt withdrawal from the vicinity of the LMC itself, the commanding Sage might feel obligated to seize control of a "security cordon" in order to keep troublesome locals at bay before sending a long-distance signal back to M81 to ask for help.

It's noted that the Sojourner's exile group detected the signal being sent back to M81 by the Torch expedition, so it's likely that such a high-strength transmission would only be done once a given Tribunal expedition didn't have to worry about their presence being detected by the locals.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, August 22, 2023 - 05:45 pm: Edit

In contrast to the Alpha and Omega Octants of the Milky Way Galaxy, the empires of the Lesser Magellanic Cloud were slow to adopt the concept of attrition units - even in the face of the Andromedan conquest.

Of the three Magellanic Powers, only the Maghadim deployed proper carriers; the Eneen later adopted a casual carrier doctrine, using imported Maghadim fighters adopted to their own technology; whereas the Baduvai, physically incapable of flying an attack shuttle, adopted Interceptors and PFs. While LMC fighters have a limited overdrive system, this prevents them from installing chaff, warp booster packs, or megapacks (all of which were unknown in the LMC prior to Operation Unity); they also never use fighter pods other than laser or EW pods. Whereas the Baduvai did not develop WBPs for their INTs or PFs prior to Unity either; it's as yet unclear if the post-Unity Baduvai were able to adopt this technology or not.

Other LMC factions, such as the Jumokian pirates and the LMC-Jindarians, never adopted fighters or PFs, even after contact with the Operation Unity task forces.

So, it's quite possible that in an LMC contingency, neither the Tholians nor the Seltorians would adopt fighters or PFs in turn - or, if they did, that these attrition units would be very constrained relative to their Galactic counterparts, at least prior to Operation Unity.

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It's worth noting that Maghadim and Eneen fighters each have a dogfight rating of zero. This is not an accident; these units are designed to fight the Andromedans (to include Andro mobile weapons platforms), not other fighters.

Further, CPAs are explicitly noted as being limited to units of Size Class 4 and above; whereas NBs cannot be armed on fighters. (The Eneen PAS has a single plasma-E instead, though it is able to replace it with a warp-tuned laser pod.) So even if the Tholians in the LMC were to adopt either heavy weapon for their ships, they would not be able to install them on their fighters.

Plus, while the Tholians in the LMC might develop the web spinner if they were to first adopt the fighters needed to use it, it's one thing to spin web around a base operating in the open; it's quite another to do so around an asteroid shipyard hiding in exile.

Another question would be whether the Tholians in exile would get a hold of overdrive technology for such fighters or not.

I would not see any of the other Magellanic exiles contracting with the Seltorians, so fighters for them would likely be a non-starter.

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As for Interceptors and fast patrol ships:

As noted above, CPA-armed gunboats are off the table. While it's not yet clarified whether a neutron beam can be installed on a PF or not, the point would be moot in the absence of warp booster packs. Which would leave the Tholians with (relatively weak) phaser variant Scorpions and Arachnids, at least prior to Operation Unity.

The Seltorians would at least have PFs armed with particle cannons - albeit with no WBPs to help arm them prior to Operation Unity. I wonder what a would-be Seltorian INT might look like, however.

In both cases, there is no real equivalent to the shield refit in the LMC, as Baduvai INTs and PFs use Magellanic inner shields only. So one could include the shield refit as standard - or, perhaps, say that no such refit existed in the LMC prior to Operation Unity. (Which would mean inventing a "pre-refit" version of the Seltorian PF, I guess...)

Also, since the Baduvai only developed certain mission variants for their INTs and PFs - and never deployed leader or scout variants, even after Operation Unity - any would-be Tholian or Seltorian gunboats in the pre-Unity LMC would at most only get the same variants also.

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In sum, there is plenty of reason to say that any would-be Tholians or Seltorians in the LMC would simply not get any kind of fighters or PFs, either pre- or post-Unity.

But, if either (or both) of them were to be given fighters and/or PFs, there would be ways to constrain such units in ways that fit the confines of the Lesser Magellanic Cloud as a setting.

Personally, I'd lean towards not bothering with Tholian or Seltorian fighters in the LMC at all. As for INTs and PFs, however, I would not be entirely opposed to letting either or both of them have these unit types instead...