Gary, the Tholians what if scenario in the Omega, perhaps they use some local Omega heavy weapon in place of particle cannons.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, July 25, 2023 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Sigh... late again...

The Tholians start fielding photon torpedo-armed ships (in limited numbers) with a YIS of Y170. I consider these the best heavy weapons (except for web casters, which the Thoilians don't have at this time) available to the Tholians because they work so well with web. Until the 312th shows up (Y178), this is basically a consideration for base defense rather than combat in "open space". A DD and a DDP have different open space "fighting styles" but it's not clear one is distinctly better than the other in that role. But the DDP is clearly superior as part of a base defense force.

Suppose a strong Klingon force has assaulted a wedding cake and the Tholians, having retreated behind the middle web ring) don't have enough phaser firepower to stop the Klingons on the outer ring before that ring weakens enought to allow the attackers to advance to the middle ring. So the Tholians decide to send their destroyer onto the middle ring to hit a Klingon with overloaded heavy weapons, hoping to do enough damage to enable the Tholians to reinforce the outer ring. If the destroyer is a DDP, its overloaded photons will generally do far more damage than the overloaded disruptors of a standard DD. Assuming the DD survives, it will then pull back behind the middle ring and start rearming the heavy weapons. Of course, a disruptor-armed DD could do this again next turn while a photon-armed DDP would have to wait two turns. But over multiple, a photon-armed DDP and a disruptor armed DD using these tactics would each inflict about the same damage on the Klingon attackers but the Klingons would have twice as many opportunites to shoot the DD.

Or suppose instead the Tholians decide they can't stop the Klingons at the outer web ring and are waiting behind the middle ring with overloaded weapons. Again, the DDP will inflict far more damage than the DD. The DD could fire its disruptors again next turn, but only if it survived the first exchange, since the Klingons would also be firing at it at point blank range. The DD and the DDP might be approximately equal (in overall capabilities - tactical fighting "style" would be quite different) in open space. But in a wedding cake defense, crunch power beats rate fo fire.

And there's another consideration, power. The outer web has deteriorated to the point that the Klingons can hit the middle web. A DD needs to spend 8 power to overload two disruptors. But the DDP has previously armed (overloaded) both photon torpedoes and is now holding them for only 4 power, leaving it 4 additional power for other things (EW, shield reinforcement, whatever).

In Y178, the 312th shows up. From that point, photon-armed Tholians also have certain advantages over disruptor-armed Tholians in open space, and for similar reasons. With web casters in the mix, the Tholians can prevent (or at least make it much tougher) for the Klingons to "mug" them during the turns the photons are rearming. The web casters also increase the chances of the photon-armed Tholians being able to engage at their preferred range. In general, I think web has better synergies with photon torpedoes than with either disruptors or particle cannons.

Next post I will discuss my opinions on disruptors versus PCs versus photon torpedoes under X-tech.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, August 05, 2023 - 11:24 am: Edit

Thanks again for the further thoughts posted above.

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One question I might have, based on the various Tholian cruiser types' firing arcs:

On the one hand, ships like the Archaeo-Tholian heavy cruiser have Omega-like split firing arcs for their direct-fire heavy weapons; whereas Neo-Tholian cruisers have all of their heavy weapons installed in FA arcs.

To what extent does this make an impact, in terms of how one type of Tholian cruiser might plan its battle pass, as opposed to another?

Or to put it another way; since the CA can only concentrate all of its heavy weapon firepower along the forward centreline, would this encourage the Tholian captain to avoid lining up an "Alpha strike" and instead expect to only be able to concentrate an "Omega strike" of firepower at once - and is this a greater or lesser consideration for photon heavy cruisers as opposed to those armed with disruptors?

And speaking of disruptor CAs versus photon ones: while the Tholian engineers are generous in terms of swapping out APRs for AWRs as part of the photon refit, even then there is a greater need to dip into the ship's warp engine output in order to arm (and/or overload) the photons, as opposed to the arm-from-any-source disruptors (or, for that matter, particle cannons). Thus, would a photon CA expect to have a lower battle speed than its disruptor counterpart (or a would-be particle cannon variant) in open space?

And also: to what extent does the "disruptive" effect on Andromedan PA panels impact the relative value of disruptor variant Tholian ships in open space against the Andros, as opposed to their photon (or would-be particle cannon) variants?

-----

And while I didn't want to go too much into these topics here, I have been speculating on Tholians in Omega here - and on Tholians in the (pre-Unity) LMC here.

Part of both threads has indeed looked at what "local" weapons might be used in place of disruptors and/or of photons - to include whether or not the Tholians might be able to (or perhaps be minded to) recover particle cannon technology in certain circumstances.

So, if anyone here has not already popped over to have a look, you're more than welcome to do so...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 05, 2023 - 11:52 am: Edit

Alas... forget about this one again...

Gary Carney;

If you're still interested in my thoughts about relative usefulness of photon torpedoes versus disruptors versus paticle cannons, for the Tholians, here's the next installment. You may recall that I regarded the PC as superior to the disruptor during EY for the simple reason that PCs (on Neo-Tholian ships) are overloadable but disruptors (available only on the Archeo-Tholian DD) cannot be overloaded in EY. But in the Middle Years, the disruptor becomes the better weapon and the photon torpedo (when it becomes available) is better than either.

In the X-tech era, the superiority of the photon torpedo is even more pronounced. The interesting question is whether the PC (if the Tholians still had access to that technology) would be better than the disruptor. And actually, I go back and forth on that question, though I tend to favor the PC, slightly.

The Tholian disruptor improvements with X-tech are UIM (which the Tholians don't have at standard tech), increased range (more important for the DDs than the cruisers, since disruptors at 31-40 are pretty weak but increasing DD disruptor range to 30 enables them to engage out to the maximum range at which disruptors are generally useful), and the ability to arm disruptors and then hold them till next turn at reduced power (quite useful for the Tholians in web defense, in a manner similar to that discussed for photon torpedoes in my previous 25 July post). The PC improvements are larger capacitor (least valuable of the improvments), ability to overload both shots rather than just one, and reduction of the interval between shots from 12 impulses to 8 impulses.

As I indicated above, although I think it's close, I give the X-tech PC a slight edge over the X-tech disruptor. There are several reasons for this. But probably the most important one is the counterpart to the fact, discussed in my 8:12 PM post from 23 July, that disruptors are less degraded in a high-ECM environment. That's still true in the X-tech era but is balanced by the ability of X-ships to gain a -1 ECCM shift, and PCs gain more from that than disruptors do. With no shift, a UIM-assisted, overloaded disruptor has an expected damage of 5 points at range 8. A PC has an expectation of 3 points per shot, or 6 points per turn. This gives it a 20% edge over the disruptor (assuming it gets both shots off - and even then there's still the issue of the damage tending to be spread over two different shields). But suppose the Tholian has a -1 ECCM shift. Including that and the UIM, the disruptor automatically hits at 8 hexes, giving 6 points of damage per disruptor per turn. The PC has two shots, each with an expectation of 4 points; or a total of 8 points of damage per PC per turn. That 20% superiority in damage per turn (unshifted) becomes a 33% superiority with -1 ECCM shift. And Tholian ships are generally both more maneuverable and better shielded than their Seltorian counterparts. The superior maneuverability means they hve a better chance of getting off two close-range shots and the superior shields mean the PCs would have a better chance of surviving the initial exchange of fire and still being avaialble once the 8-impulse delay was over. Of course,a -1 ECCM shift is available for standard tech ships if the ship in question has Oustanding Crew or a Legendary ire Control Officer (a -2 shift if it has both). But those are optional rules and even if you are playing with them, only a small portion of your ships would have these capabilites. But every X-ship would have at least a chance of gaining the -1 ECCM shift, especially if supported by a friendly scout. So although it's close, I tend to think the PC would have been a better weapon than the disruptor for the Tholians at X-tech (had they retained the technology); though neither matches the photon torpedo.

I'm not sure if my opinions have helped you or if you are still interested in the topic. But if you do have further questions, or if you think I'm wrong and want to discuss it further, I would be happy to respond.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 05, 2023 - 11:54 am: Edit

Gary,

I see you posted another comment while I was typing out my last one. I'll try to have a response to your questions in your 11:24 AM post later today.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, August 06, 2023 - 02:04 am: Edit

Did I say "later today"? Uhh... I meant sometime on Sunday...

For now I'll just say that with both Neo-Tholian and Archeo-Tholian ships, I usually prefer to make my first pass an oblique pass rather than attacking head on. But there's a lot of situational dependence. (Duel between two ships or fleet action? A stand-alone scenario or part of a campaign? And just who am I fighting, anyway; a historical enemy like the Klingons or a non-historical (mostly) one like the Federation?) I'll try to give a more detailed answer later.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, August 06, 2023 - 09:05 pm: Edit

One reason I tend to prefer an oblique attack for the initial pass, whether with an Archeo-Tholian ship or a Neo-Tholian, is that it gives me more options after the attack. Depending on the results both of my own fires and the enemy's, I can easily turn in towards the enemy for a close range knife fight next turn, or I can turn out and exercise "the better part of valor". If I'm charging straight in at the enemy I may have slightly more firepower. But if things go wrong, it's much harder to separate.

Also, the Archeo-Tholian CA loses the firepower of one disruptor if it makes an oblique attack. That disruptor hits 67% of the time at 8 hexes, for 6 points of damage. So the "expected lost firepower" from an oblique attack at 8-hex range is .67 x 6 = 4 points of damage. A Neo-Tholian NCL could bring all its disruptors to bear in an oblique attack, but unlike the Archeo-Tholian CA, it loses 2 phaser-1s. At 8 hexes, that's an "expected lost firepower" of 4.33 damage; slightly more than the CA looses. Now, because the NCL has more long range firepower than the CA (but only slightly more if the CA is a CAW with web caster refit), the CA does lose a somewhat higher percentage of its firepower in an oblique attack. But the difference isn't nearly as much as we might think if we examine only heavy weapons and ignore the phaser-1s.

And then there's the issue of shields. The CA has shields of 30 all around. The NCL has a 26 point front shield but the other shields are only 20 points. Those comparatively weak flank and rear shields for the NCL (relative to its cost and to the shields of counterparts in other fleets) may make an oblique attack a real risk for that ship.

So while, yes, the differences between Archeo- and Neo- heavy weapons arcs are certainly a consideration in planning a battle pass; there ae other considerations that are often more important, at least in my opinion.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, August 08, 2023 - 04:10 pm: Edit

looking at Pinwheels. A 2PC 1 Sc pinwheel costs 208BPV. 4 scout channels and 42 power. Inside a 6 hex global web. Minus housekeeping and web power. It should still leave around 24+ power for scout functions.

use a BW, PCE and a scout. Same power but some more phaser3s and fighters. 274 with 4spq and 4 sp2 a little cheaper with just 8sp1.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 09, 2023 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Gregory Flusche:

I may be missing something in this, but you are setting up this Tholian defense whee the Klingons only have the Tholian ships to shoot at? Otherwise you are running into the standard problem. The size of the Tholian fleet versus their enemies and the space they are trying to defend.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, August 09, 2023 - 04:59 pm: Edit

There are a lot of problems with it. It is a non-mobile scout. I am even unsure if it even would work in an open space battle at all.

The only good things are lots of power for the scout channels and hard to kill behind the web. No long-range snipping at the scout.

It limits where the ships can move as well. 15 hex range for loaning EW.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 09, 2023 - 05:16 pm: Edit

A long time ago, someone submitted a fiction story where part of the story involved losses to the Tholian fleet. The author did not think anything of the losses, and I had to write back to him pointing out the problem. The story made no sense as the Tholian pre war fleet was utterly destroyed and new construction in the time left before the General War could not replace the supposed losses. One of the issues with games with a future and published data from Federation and Empire.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 10, 2023 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

Thanks once again for the further thoughts. I apologize for not being able to respond to each one more promptly.

In your experience, when you use an Archaeo-Tholian CA to make an oblique attack, how do you later make use of the "off-arc" heavy weapon?

For example: if you are flying a photon heavy cruiser, do you keep the "off-arc" photon held as a deterrent against over-runs? Do you line up a second shot in the same turn, or perhaps together with phasers in the other photons' arming turn? Or, have you ever gone for a "half and half" approach, in which you plan to fire only the port photons in one turn, and then fire the starboard ones in the next (or vice versa)?

Although, I wonder in the case of a would-be particle cannon CA variant, one could line up six out of eight PC shots in two oblique battle passes per turn - one shot each from the port and starboard mounts, and two shots from those in the FA arc - and keep the "spare" side-arc PC shots in case of emergencies. (Now that I think of it, that might be broadly equivalent to something a captain of a particle beam-armed Vari cruiser might consider doing also...)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 14, 2023 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Gary,

In your 6:38 PM post on 10 August you ask

---

Quote:

For example: if you are flying a photon heavy cruiser, do you keep the "off-arc" photon held as a deterrent against over-runs?

---

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, August 15, 2023 - 07:42 am: Edit

Padding?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 16, 2023 - 03:50 pm: Edit

My apologies; I was looking at the X1-ship in Module X1R, and failed to check if the non-X photon variant had the same heavy weapon mounts or not before I posted that question.

Although, it occurs to me that the mix of disruptor bolt and photon torpedo armament would have its uses against Andromedan opposition, with the disruptors bolts adding their "disruptive" effect to the damage output provided by the photons in a combined volley.

Actually, perhaps an interesting Alpha Octant "what-if" might be if the Tholians somehow got a hold of the "modern" incarnation of the disruptor cannon from Module C6, and used that in place of the photon torpedo. Say, for example, if there was a heavy cruiser variant with LF+L and RF+R disruptor bolts, and a pair of FA disruptor cannons in place of photons.

Although even in the "lost empire" Carnivon timelines in that module, actually getting the tech as far as the Holdfast might be a challenge...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, August 22, 2023 - 09:40 pm: Edit

As (yet another) follow-on question:

How would any of you rate the Tholian PF versus the Seltorian PF? Be it in terms of overall firepower; in terms of cost-effectiveness; or in terms of tactical flexibility against other Alpha Octant fast patrol ship types - or, for that matter, against Andromedan MWPs, or the (conjectural) Adder PFs over in Module C3A.

Further, how differently might the tactics involved in flying a would-be particle cannon-armed variant of the Tholian PF pan out in the Alpha Octant, as opposed to the historical disruptor variant?

For comparison's sake, I was speculating about would-be "volatile warp" gunboats for both empires over in the "Tholians in Omega" thread - as well as the options (if any) for WBP-less gunboats for either or both factions over in the "Tholians in the LMC" thread. As before, an informed view on the historical "baseline" would be most welcome here.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 24, 2023 - 12:10 am: Edit

Gary,

Here, for whatever it's worth, is my opinion of Tholian versus Seltorian PFs.

The Tholians are a legitimate contender for having the best PFs in Alpha. But there are other contenders, and the Seltorians are one of them. You can actually make a case for the Seltorians having a better weapon suit. The standard Selt PF has a PC, three phaser-1s, and two phaser-3s. Why is this better than the Tholian suite of two disruptors, two phaser-1s, and two phaser-3s? Well, maybe it isn't. I said "you can make a case..."; not that the Seltorian weapon suite was clearly better. But if I were to argue in favor of the Seltorian, I would note that direct-fire heavy weapons on PFs are limited to 10 hexes^* but phasers have a range of 15 hexes. So, assuming a standard flotilla of one leader, one scout, and four "regular" PFs, the Seltorians have the long range (11-15 hexes) firepower advantage by 16 phaser-1s to 10 (assuming the scout PFs don't use their phasers). Yes, 16 to 10, not 15 to 10. The PFLs of most empires (though not the Tholians) have a bit more power and, often, better shields than the line PFs. The Seltorians are the only empire I can think of for whom the PFL has more weapons (an extra phaser-1) than the line PFs. So the Tholians will have a crunch power edge in heavy weapon range, but first they have to get through that 11-15 bracket. How easy or difficult that might be will depend on several other factors.

That said, I regard the Tholian PFs as better over all, though it's close. The Tholian PFs have better weapon arcs than the Selts, as well as better power and shields (Remember how the Tholian PFL doesn't get extra power compared to Tholian line PFs? That's actually a win for the Tholians. Their line PFs have better power than those of most empires.) And both empires have all-phaser versions, which would reduce the Seltorian phaser-1 advantage from a significant 16-10 to a much-less-lopsided 21-20 advantage.

And Tholian flotillas have two Arachnid-Ws per flotilla, web generators replacing the phaser-3s. That usually won't make much diffeence in open space (but see below). On the other hand, a Tholian PF flotilla strengthens a web defense force far more than a Selt flotilla strengthens the attacking force, precisely because of those web generators. And those generators can be refitted to snares, which can be quite useful in open space, especially against a seeking -weapon-using opponent. And since Selts use Klingon fighters, the Selts are a seeking-weapon-using opponent if they have a carrier present for the battle.

So, yes, I think the Tholian PFs are better. But don't take that Selt flotilla lightly. It only takes a minor Tholian miscalculation, or a minor disparity in luck, for the Selts to come out on top.


^*The one exception I can think of (possibly there are others that I cannot recall) is the photon torpedo, which has a range of 12 on PFs. Historically this was available only to the Orions. But it's also part of the reason (phaser-1s versus phaser-2s being another part of the reason) why I believe that if the Feds had deployed PFs, a Thunderbolt flotilla would have been distinctly superior to a Klingon G-1 flotilla.

Anyway, that's my take on Tholian versus Selt PFs. YMMV.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, September 04, 2023 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Thanks for the advice regarding Tholian versus Seltorian PFs.

One final question (for now) regarding Alpha Octant Tholians and Seltorians:

How would you rate the various Archaeo- and Neo-Tholian X1-ships currently in print to their conjectural(?) Seltorian counterparts in Module X1R and elsewhere?

To put it another way: would the challenge faced by Tholian X1-ships from would-be Seltorian X1-ships be proportionally equivalent to that historically faced by non-X Tholian ships versus their equivalent non-X Seltorian counterparts; or would either side take to first-generation X-technology more amenably than the other, to the point of providing a markedly noticeable advantage in SFB game terms?

For example, if one considers a duel between a Tholian CA, CAP, or NCA versus a Seltorian CA, and then considers a duel between a Tholian CAX, PAX, or NCX versus a Seltorian CAX, would either the Tholians or Seltorians gain more of a comparative advantage from the use of X1-tech in such a setup - or would both sides remain at more or less the same level?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 05, 2023 - 12:43 am: Edit

Gary,

My short answer is that I think there are several Tholian X-ships that are advantaged over the Seltorian CAX in a duel; the CPX, PAX, NCX, and NHX. The Tholian CCX may be advantaged as well, but I'm less sure of that. It lacks the crunch power of the other ships, though it has some excellent capablities of its own. But I value crunch power a lot against Seltorian X-ships because at close or medium ranges an X-tech particle cannon (able to overload both shots rather than just one) does more total damage per turn than most Tholian heavy weapons. So I like ships that are a serious threat, due to their combination of shields and weapons, to "tank" the Seltorian's initial strike without suffering internals, while still penetrating the Seltorian shields and (maybe) killing a PC. Even if they don't hit a PC, the second volley will be against a fresh shield (8 impulse delay between PC shots). So a plausible result after the first "serious" pass would be a Selt with a downed shield and some internals facing off against a Tholian with one almost down shield, a second shield with moderate damage, but no internals.

Obviously this depends on specific tactics chosen by both players (including amount of reinforcement), the range of the first exchange, and good old fashioned luck. It's not a slam-dunk for the Tholians by any means. But those ships are both more maneuverable and better shielded (over all) than the Selt CAX (as well as having excellent crunch power) and I think those four have a better than even shot in that duel.

If you're interested, I could talk about specific tactics I might use, which would be different for the differnt ships, in a later post.

In a fleet action things become more complicated. For one thing, in a fleet action the Selt would likely concentrate the fire of multiple ships on one key Tholian, making it impossible to "brick" sufficiently to stop all internals in that first pass. And interestingly enough, one of those complicating factors isn't X-tech at all. In a battle involving mixed formations of X and non-X ships, the Seltorians may have a carrier. And their carriers use Klingon fighters. And that means the Seltorians may have an EW advantage due to ECM drones.

Note that fighters can't receive ECM from ECM drones but they can carry them, and launch them to protect friendly ships. So in a fleet action in which the Seltorian have a carrier, the Selt ships (or at least the most important ones) will be protected by ECM drones. Of course, the Tholians and Selts may both have scouts present. But the Tholians won't have enough power or scout channels to negate all of the Selt ECM advantage.

As always, how the Tholians deal with this issue depends heavily on the details of the situation.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, September 10, 2023 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Thanks once again for the advice and insight.

Although I am curious as to your thoughts on how the threat from the X-tech version of the web breaker - to include the use of the anchor break mode - scales relative to the use of web by Tholian X1-ships. Or to put it another way, if the interaction between X1-tech web generation (and/or web casting) is as proportionately affected by X-tech web breakers as non-X web is by non-X WBs.

Or, for that matter, if the X-tech upgrade to the shield cracker rules make much of a difference one way or another, in your view.

-----

On a side note: if the Torch expedition somehow succeeded in sending details on first-generation X-tech back to the home galaxy, and if such tech were to proliferate across that post-Revolt setting, it would be interesting to one day speculate on what X1-tech upgrades to the OGR and OGD might look like...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 02:55 am: Edit

Gary;

X-tech / Web Interactions:

I think the Tholians also have a net gain here, compared to the situation in M81. But it's important to break that into two primary cases; "prepared defense" and "open space" battle.

Tholian Prepared Defense
I think the introduction of X-tech clearly helps the Tholians more in a prepared defense action. Note that Anchor Break mode (the web breaker X-tech upgrade) is only useful against web anchored by Tholian units (ships, web anchor buoys, etc.); but doesn't help against globular web, nor against web anchored to asteroids. Since the latter situation (globular or asteroid-anchored web) will be the issue in nearly all prepared defenses, Anchor Break doesn't really help during an assault on a Tholian base.

Now, Seltorian X-ships have stronger shields, better EW, and more energy available for reinforcement. This may indirectly help them take down the outer webs by allowing them to move in closer than their non-X counterparts could. But against that you have Tholian X-ships that have more energy for reinforcing the web, and more phaser-1s (which can fire every turn - compared to the weapons on Seltorian X-ships that can't fire until the web is down (unless the Selts actually enter the still-powered outer ring)). So I think that the introduction of X-tech to both sides does result in a distinct net improvement in the Tholians' favor as far as prepared defense is concerned.

Battle in open space
I think X-tech is a net benefit for the Tholians here, too. But it is far less clear cut. Looking specifically at how X-tech introduction effects use of web in open space battles, Anchor Break does indeed help if the Tholians attempt to cast a web anchored by Tholian ships, or if the Tholians attempt to lay web by conventional means. But it doesn't help against cast free standing web, or web anchored by asteroids (if the fight takes place in an asteroid field). And Tholian X-tech enables stronger web (whether anchored or free standing) to be cast in the first place.

Then there are the direct damage functions. Damage mode for a shield cracker does allow the Selt X-ship to do more damage in some specific instances. But note that "normal" shield cracker firing takes place in phase 6B7, which is before most direct fire weapons (phase 6D). So if a Selt ship fires all weapons at a Tholian with full shields, the shield crackers reduce the shields and subsequently the other weapons do their damage. The total damage to the Tholian is identical in both cases. But if the Selt fires at a ship with a previously-downed facing shield, the shield crackers are useless unless they are X-tech and can fire in damage mode. So the X-tech upgrade to shield crackers enables them to do four more points of damage per hit, but only if the volley takes place within 10 hexes and is fired against a previously-downed (or at least severely weakened) shield. In contrast, the X-tech upgrade to a web caster enables it to do two more damage per hit, but this is regardless of target shield status and is effective to 30 hexes.

So specifically for web systems, I also believe introduction of X-tech is a net Tholian advantage in open space. But it is a much closer call than the prepared defense scenario.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, September 13, 2023 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Thanks yet again.

Actually, one thing I noticed in (XR9.0) is that partial-X upgrades to the particle cannon or web breaker are not possible for Size Class 1 or 2 units. So unless the Seltorians were somehow able to upgrade a Hive or Nest Ship - or, for that matter, a Battlewagon or Assaultwagon - to "full" X1-technology, they'd be more limited in the degree to which they can bolster their Tribunal ships' combat capabilities in the face of Tholian first-generation X-technology.

Another means by which the Tholians would increase their net gain, as you say, in the era of first-generation X-tech.

But on the other hand, if the Seltorians were in a position to build "fixed" bases of their own, presumably they'd be able to upgrade those to full X1-tech. Which would help them defensively, but not in terms of taking the fight to the Tholians directly...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 15, 2023 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Gary,

You're right about not being able to apply partial-X refits to heavy weapons on SC-1 or 2 units. But I don't see how that really affects the Battlewagon. The X-tech refit for web breakers is the "anchor break", which is far more relevant to "open space" battles than it is to assaulting Tholian fixed defenses, which will be protected by globular web or perhaps by asteroid-anchored web. So the lack of an anchor break capability doesn't really affect the ability of the Battlewagon to perform its primary mission, taking down the protecting webs.

The lack of a direct damage mode for the shield cracker, and the inability to overload both shots for the particle cannons, may marginally effect the ability of the Battlewagon to take down the Tholian base itself. But that's not really its job. The Battlewagon is too valuable to risk in that role. It takes down the protecting webs and then falls back so the PFs and escorting ships (which will probably include X-ships) take on the base itself. Those PFs, and even X-ships, are far easier to replace than a Hive Ship / Battlewagon. So, except in extraordinarily unusual circumstances, I don't really see the inability to provide XP-upgrades to the Battlewagon's web breakers and particle cannons, as much of a limitation. The APR, battery, and damage control XP-upgrades, all of which it can receive, are more valuable to the Battlewagon anyway.

The inability to XP-upgrade the web breakers and particle cannons may have slightly more impact if the Battlewagon plus escorting fleet is intercepted in open space by a Tholian fleet. But if the Tholian fleet in that scenario is strong enough to defeat the Seltorians, it will almost always be strong enough to defeat the same Seltorian fleet, even if XP-upgrades were allowed for the Battlewagon's heavy weapons.

The issue here is range. The web breaker / shield cracker upgrades are irrelevant beyond 10 hexes anyway. And the ability to overload both particle cannon shots is relevant only within 8 hexes. The other X-tech upgrade to the particle cannon, the reduced interval between shots, doesn't really increase the total damage per turn that those PC's do. A Battlewagon is slow and unmaneuverable so the Tholians will decide what range the engagement occurs at. (This obviously is a very different situation from what happens if the Battlewagon leads an assault against a stationary Tholian base.) If the Thoilans have enough firepower to win the long range battle^*, XP-upgrades for the Battlewagon's web breakers and PCs won't change that dynamic. The Seltorians could send their PFs and ships to try to engage the Tholians at close range. But the Battlewagon will fall farther and farther behind, putting the Selts in the position of fighting the whole Tholian force with only part of their own.


^*At 30 hexes, a particle cannon hits ¹/₃ of the time, for one point of damage, two shots per turn. That amounts to ²/₃ points of damage per PC per turn. A DERFACS-controlled disruptor averages 1 point per turn (and that would include X-tech destroyers, or standard destroyers with XP-upgrades to the disruptors). A photon torpedo averages 2 points every 2 turns. And a web caster (fired as a web fist) averages 2 points per turn unless it is X-tech (2²/₃ points per turn). The number of phaser-1s in each fleet will probably be roughly comparable, depending on exact fleet composition. And class for class, Tholians are generally better shielded than Seltorians. Winning the long range battle against Seltorians is eminently possible if the Tholians design their force for it. And a chance to take out the Hive Ship / Battlewagon is one of the instances when it is worth it for the Tholians to mass multiple capital ships into a single force.

That, at any rate, is how I see the matter. YMM, as always, V.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Thanks once again!

I am somewhat surprised that, were you in the place of the Seltorians, you wouldn't want to park a Battlewagon (or, by extension, an Assautwagon) in closer proximity to a target Tholian base.

Even leaving the web breaker firepower to one side - which, in fairness, a BW or AW would have to do, since it can only use either the port or starboard rows at a time against the base in question - I would have thought the Seltorians would want to leverage its large numbers of transporter pads and boarding parties against the base sooner rather than later.

Plus, if the Tholians try to concentrate fire on the BW or AW at long range, the latter unit(s) need not arm their web breakers until they get close enough to the base to use them - in which case they'd have more power spare to divert to shield reinforcement.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 11:06 pm: Edit

Gary,

I just don't see it that way. Hive Ships and Nest Ships are tremendously valuable assets for the Seltorians and would also be very high priority targets for the Tholians. The Selts shouldn't risk them unnecessarily. Better to use their huge banks of web breakers to take down the outer defensive webs and then use the much more easily replacable warships (and PFs and fighters) to actually take out the base. The Battewagon can support the assaulting forces with EW while still remaining at a reasonable range from the Tholian guns, in a base assualt scenario.

My comments about long range fire wasn't intended to be in the context of an assault on a Tholian base. I was thinking about the Tholians intercepting a fleet (led by a Battelwagon) before it reached the base. So the fight would take place in open space, with no base nearby. Obviously, this would depend on the Tholians being able to put together a fleet strong enough to engage the Battlewagon + PFs + escorting warships. But if I were the Tholians I would try to have such a force available if I could scrape together the assets. The fleets mission would be to hunt down Seltorian Hive Ships, Nest Ships, Battlewagons, and Assault Wagons. I believe that the low speed of these ships, plus the fact that most Seltorian ships are a bit inferior to their Tholian counterparts makes this an appealing prospect for the Tholians... always assuming you can scrape together the assets to form such a fleet, which will contain a non-trivial percentage of the Tholians' capital ships in a single force, in the first place.