The problem with making each box do more is that they still only take one hit to disable. This means damage accumulates way faster. Each phaser may have two shots, but you are losing them twice as fast as with X1. With the CA+ it takes four photon hits to remove them all; this ship only takes three photon hits.

Tied in with this, it means that the actual internals are almost irrelevant. Once the shields are breached, the ship is almost certainly lost. In GW-era fights, losing a shield is bad, but the base ship can still take hits and keep in the fight. With this approach, once the shields are gone, the ship will quickly follow, as the internals just can't take it. Especially with the increased capabilities of the weapons to handle those shields in the first place.

Also, it is NOT true that there is no place to spend the power. Since this approach makes your shields effectively your only defense, all extra power will be used in either reinforcement or shield repair. Since it is just too critical to not lose shields, each ship will have to work overtime to make sure it doesn't happen.

Fundamentally, this approach makes the ship's internals virtually irrelevant. You could just make them work like giant fighters (describe lost capabilities for being "damaged" and "crippled", define how much damage it takes to be "damaged", "crippled", and "destroyed").

On the plus side, you eliminate the need for a DAC.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, January 31, 2021 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Here's my suggestion:

When the Middle Years hit, there was a fairly long time where Y-ships were still running around, but there were also MY-ships. In effect, MY-ships were the "advanced" ships of their day. They were hard to build, they use very new technology, and they were relatively rare. However, by the time of the Four Powers war, this "advanced" technology became the norm and all of the old Y-ships went away.

Just do the same here: there are actually no real X2 ships. All we have are X ships. However, because of the experience with the technology, the passage of time, and the economies of scale, what were viewed as the new advanced ships are now just "ships". X2 isn't its own era, really, it is just the maturation of X. Just like how the Middle Years smoothed into the Four Powers/General War era, the X-era smooths into what is (erroneously) called the X2-era. It isn't new technology; it is simply the result of the gradual but complete adoption of X-technology.

Note that this doesn't mean that "X2" ships are identical to X-ships. The X-ships were designed for war as a single mono-maniacal focus. The X2 ships would not be built that way; they would be much more generally capable and designed for longer lifespans. However, the underlying technology is completely unchanged from what we currently know as X-technology. It is just that X-technology isn't special anymore; it's just technology now.

EDIT: This means that there would be some magic date (like Y120 in MY) where X-tech basically becomes "tech". This isn't a "partial-X refit" or anything. It is just that what was once special is now just how it works.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Sunday, January 31, 2021 - 05:18 pm: Edit

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Quote:

The problem with making each box do more is that they still only take one hit to disable. This means damage accumulates way faster. Each phaser may have two shots, but you are losing them twice as fast as with X1... it means that the actual internals are almost irrelevant. Once the shields are breached, the ship is almost certainly lost... On the plus side, you eliminate the need for a DAC.

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Quote:

Just do the same here: there are actually no real X2 ships. All we have are X ships. However, because of the experience with the technology, the passage of time, and the economies of scale, what were viewed as the new advanced ships are now just "ships". X2 isn't its own era, really, it is just the maturation of X. Just like how the Middle Years smoothed into the Four Powers/General War era, the X-era smooths into what is (erroneously) called the X2-era. It isn't new technology; it is simply the result of the gradual but complete adoption of X-technology.

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By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Sunday, January 31, 2021 - 07:18 pm: Edit

5-point batteries that can hold warp power over multiple turns are just plain hideous.

Instead of warp engine boxes producing 2 points of power I would rather see the movement costs reduced. AN XCA with 40 warp and movement cost 3/4 has the same number of engine boxes as a CX, but an extra 7.5 points of warp power when moving at speed 30. But after 40 years players are not likely going to accept a CA with a movement cost other than 1.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, January 31, 2021 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Can I say with full assurance that internal damage becomes mostly irrelevant? No, I cannot. That said with damage strikes that are likely 50% more powerful and 75% fewer internals (I'm rounding here), then everything becomes an eggshell once the shields are punched.

As for what I was saying, what it means is that X-ships are X2 ships. What is the difference between a beginning Middle Years ship and an unrefitted Four Powers War ship? Nothing; they are the same thing. So, what is the difference between an X-ship and the corresponding X2 ship? Potentially nothing, by design. Now, of course, they can be tweaked to be less blasty and more general purpose, but fundamentally they are the same. Where you get new ships is filling out the fleet in a more traditional manner that isn't only focused on kill-kill-kill. So, for example, the various CWXs go away and are replaced with more traditional CLXs.

But the point of my suggestion is that there is nothing new in X2 technology-wise. The difference is a different focus from the ships and that the technology becomes commonplace rather than special. Ideally X2 would require no new rules other than making the existing X rules the default rules for all ships and units.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 31, 2021 - 08:02 pm: Edit

"Ideally X2 would require no new rules other than making the existing X rules the default rules for all ships and units."

I'd like new things with X2. Rules that are unchanged are not, to me, ideal. No.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 03:30 pm: Edit

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Quote:

I'd like new things with X2. Rules that are unchanged are not, to me, ideal. No.

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By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 04:54 pm: Edit

I understood your point, rephrasing it does not persuade me.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Just wanted to be clear.

Besides, I doubt you have anything to fear, as I am pretty sure SVC doesn't like that approach either.

However, I will point out that this perfectly illustrates a major problem SVC is having with X2: wildly different hopes for what is included. What I suggested is of no interest to you, but what you seem to want leaves me ice cold. Bridging that gap may prove insurmountable.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 12:03 am: Edit

Hey guys, X2 still simmering on the back-burner I see.

I’m not a fan of the eggshell approach, nor of the lots-and-lots of boxes on an SSD approach, nor of the enough power to do everything approach.

I am a fan of X1 being maxed out warships and X2 being balanced ships replacing worn-out war construction. That is to say X2 trades combat capability for longevity, reliability and enhanced capabilities for non-combat missions. Strategically I like to think of X2 ships as faster as a scenario generation device, but I’m trying not to talk tech here.

In this universe early-X2 is a time of peaceful coexistence between the empires and empire rebuilding following a general economic collapse. X2 are not super-X1 ships because the empires are simply bankrupt after a generation of war and devastation. Early-X2 is MY-redux. Large tracks of neutral-zone colonies have decided that independence and neutrality, backed by surplus GW-era military tech, are preferable to being the last lonely outpost on the edge of an empire too exhausted to care. Think the break-up of the Soviet Union where everyone keeps their ICBMs and local garrisons. These well-armed tin-pot dictators will squabble with one another causing endless trade wars and all manner of unrest for the now-much-smaller empire to deal with.

An X2 ship might be dispatched to handle a dispute, investigate an anomaly or tasked with a quick raid, but it would be atypical to find an X2 squadron in action when all those expendable CWs are just sitting around. In this universe X2 and GW era ships have to play nice with one another and operate on a compatible BPV scale. I’m not a fan of an X2 ship that can laugh off a squadron of CWs and believe it would be a major error to go this route. That’s not to say the designers didn’t leave room to buff their new X2 ship when the Xorks show up. Late-X2 could be GW-redux, but that’s not today’s problem.

I am a fan of X1 being mostly sidelined as unreliable and hideously expensive to operate. These warships would still be available, but would rarely leave space dock. War construction ships are affordable convoy escorts and good for garrison duty but are crap at exploration or investigation, relatively slow and would tend to stay close to base without a specific reason to leave.

Attrition units are likely abundant but would be mostly planet bound or mothballed as carriers would fall into the hideously expensive fleet unit category in an era where fleets are passé. No one is designing or building attrition units in early-X2, but you may need to wade through a few squadrons to pacify that independence minded planet.

Where does that leave us? An X2 ship is a brand new design that only an empire can build. I see X2 as a budget fix to replace obsolete hulls. Worn-out GW hulls get sold to neutral planets for the raw materials to support a much smaller empire. Each empire might have to sell 2-3 hulls to have the cash for one X2 ship, but the X2 ship is faster, more capable and one X2 ship has substantially lower operating costs than three GW-era ships.

An X2 ship has the same volume as any ship of the same class, and volume translates to boxes. Shields are, whatever playtest says shields need to be; not too strong, not too weak. I’m drawn toward fast-warp engines and hull-design rather than X1-engines on legacy hulls as I’d simply like an X2 SSD to look different.

Weapons would be similar to MY in quantity but enhanced in some way. Heavy weapons cannot grossly deviate from traditional ranges (anyone in favor of range-12 overloads? I’ve got a few copies of the original X2 for sale) or it will destroy balance. I’m thinking an X2 ship would prefer the range 5-15 duel and leave shortly after first-blood rather than risk a mortal wound. In a past life a Ph-5 was proposed with a range 5-8 sweet-spot simulating improved targeting without the massive point-blank spike. A 1.5 capacitor phaser that can fire once in offensive mode and again in defensive mode, or three-times in defensive mode in a single turn feels roughly right. Drone racks would be X-Rated.

The eggshell problem makes me think enhanced 2-point batteries are better than X1 3-point bats, and this allows an easy upgrade path for late-X2. The easy upgrade route is a good argument for less than maxed out X1 heavy weapons on early-X2 designs. While significant weapon upgrades sound cool I fear the eggshell problem may make the game unsatisfying, so keeping alpha in check would be a design goal for me. During different eras an X2 ship might have GW-era heavy weapons, followed by enhanced weapons of some sort, followed by a full X1 weapon upgrade when the Xorks arrive and the economy has recovered a bit. Or not. I’m just throwing ideas around.

SFB has a massive inventory of hulls. If X2 makes 95% of that IP obsolete I believe that would be a very big mistake. My objective is to create an environment where any combination of tech can have an excuse to coexist in any conceivable hostile combination, without breaking the game.

This is just one retired admiral’s opinion. I’m fairly certain a far more important man has a very different design direction which I will not actively interfere with.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 01:04 am: Edit

Before posting I read the last few chapters but not the first few. Now that I have its clear to me what I described above is not X2. Now that I concede that I still really like the idea. Is there room in the SFU for this pre-X2 concept?

For example I could see something like the empires collapsing under the weight of the Andro war instead of after the Andro war creating the conditions for the neutral zone planets to go independent.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 11:54 am: Edit

Tos Crawford's post above reminds me that once upon a time, there was a discussion (by players - I don't recall either SVC or SPP commenting on the idea) of an idea for two different "generations" of X2 ships.

These "generations" (series might be a better word) would use exactly the same technology. They would differ in that the first series would only be as powerful, roughly, as a comparably-sized X1 ship. The X1 ships were the product of the General War, ISC "Pacification", and Andromedan Invasion. They are optimized (within the limits of the original designs) as WARships. The first series of X2 ships are even more technologically advanced. But they first appear in a galaxy still in shambles from the three successive crisis. They need to assist their empires get back on their feet economically; re-establishing contact with a colony that was cut off, stopping an epidemic (that may or may not be the result of biological warfare), repairing the failing life support systems on an asteroid colony.

Much of the infrastructure that previously supported this type of work has been destroyed by the Andros. Moreover, the Alpha sector is still a dangerous place; wandering monsters, isolated pockets of Andros (with nothing to lose), attempts by neighbor empires to exert control over systems that changed hands during the GW. So the ships tasked with re-establishing the viability of their respective empires must also be able to fight. So the first series of X2 ships have extremely advanced combat systems, but a much lower percentage of the ship is given over to them. X2 ships (first series) tend to have lots of labs and shuttlecraft, some cargo capability, and even "Works" or "Fabrication" boxes. They have sufficient weapons/power/shields to engage a combat-optimized X1 ship of comparable size. But no empire, after the wreckage of the Andromedan Invasion, can afford "pure" X2 warships. The requirements for rebuilding the empire's infrastructure are too pressing.

Then the Xorks show up, and the Alpha empires have no choice but to build combat-optimized X2 ships as a matter of survival. These are the "Series-2" X2 ships and are much stronger because they dump the cargo, fabrication, excessive (by warship standards) shuttle bays and labs for more power and weapons.

I always found this concept appealing for X2. But as I said, I don't recall either SVC or SPP ever commenting on it.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Well, it's not X2 as it's currently known. Somewhere along the way there was the concept of the Trade Wars, which seem to have gotten lost somewhere. The environment necessary being large neutral zones and near economic collapse by the various empires.

I had forgotten the ISC Pacification. In theory this 'Trade War' 'large neutral zone' period could have existed in parallel with both the ISC and Andro wars.

It's not X2, so please forgive me for posting in the wrong topic. Replace what I said about X2 with lightly upgraded fast-tech and the concept still holds water. Or at least I think so, but either way it should not have been posted in this topic.

I infer from Alan's comments that there is some support for something between GW and X2. If I see anyone else chime in maybe I'll start a topic. I'll wait a few days first to see if SVC shuts the pre-X2 domestic trade-war concept down. Actually I'll wait a few days because I'm atypically from now until next week.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Tos,

I don't think I would characterize it as "... something between GW and X2", since what I have called the "Series-1" ships use exactly the same weapons, power systems, and rules as the "Series-2" ships. They're all X2. It's just that the first are "general purpose" X2 ships with lots of non-combat functions while the second are X2 warships, built specifically for fighting.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, August 23, 2021 - 10:59 pm: Edit

Deleted. We are not here to promote alternative rules sets done outside of ADB, and that particular set was evaluated and rejected
.--SVC

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Tuesday, August 24, 2021 - 02:55 pm: Edit

How verboten is that avenue of development?
TOTALLY. Please do not mention it again.—SVC

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 24, 2021 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Seriously, we picked "the plan" over a year ago and are working on the selected plan. The time for alternative proposals ended over a year ago. No other plans will ever be considered or developed. Bringing them up just wastes time, confuses the customers, and delays the real product. Paul doesn't need to be encouraging/promoting/discussing non-ADB alternatives to projects in development.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 01:10 am: Edit

Cool. I'm excited.

I didn't know you picked "the plan."

I thought X2 was still in the head-scratching phase where ADB was soliciting ideas from the community.

X2 will be a huge step forward in so many ways. It's the key that unlocks the timeline, new and exciting developments in Alpha quadrant classes, the Xorkaelian wars, all of it. I'm really happy to hear that it's not stuck any longer and have complete faith in you and SPP for whichever path you've chosen to be "the plan."

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 01:22 am: Edit

We went far beyond that phase a year ago.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, December 13, 2023 - 09:13 pm: Edit

I would like to see Federation 2X ships have secondary hulls with impulse boxes. After 150 years the Federation should finally allow both sections of a separated ship to at least move by impulse power.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Wednesday, December 13, 2023 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Nick, while your suggestion has merit, there are sadly complications of a legal nature that may well come up if anything 'future tech' of the SFU parallel's anything Paramount did with TNG.

Mind you, I don't have any special Classified Top Secret Codeword knowledge here, just a few tidbits of things SVC has said in the past. Monkeying with Photons or proposing new types of Federation Torpedoes is in a similar issue and one SVC has spoken about.

Licensing and Lawyers aside....

Emergency Ship separation of a Boom or Saucer is, at its core, an EMERGENCY measure. Its done when the ship is not much more than a cripple. While a few high value units may retain enough oomph to remain a viable threat, its the exception that only really proves out in scenarios that are highly unlikely (a B10 alone and unescorted gets accosted by a Federation Cruiser Squadron comes to mind) The simple fact is, that if your going to go that route you might as well try and pitch the process being a non-emergency separation and then we are back to one of the TNG's big mcguffins.

Its an interesting thought, but I don't see it going anywhere.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, December 14, 2023 - 02:48 am: Edit

Well, they did put warp drives in the saucers of later ships (CX, BC, CB), making them more than sublight life boats. And the plan seems to be to add “ring” type phasers which is even more a TNG thing.

I’m not suggesting Fed ship separation be anything more than it is now, an emergency. The sections can still not be rejoined without a repair facility.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, December 14, 2023 - 03:32 am: Edit

Monkeying with photons or proposing new types of torpedoes...

If we are seen by P*** as trying to sneak into unauthorized territory it attracts unwanted attention.

I don't see a legal issue with impulse in the secondary hulls. I also do not see a tactical need.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, December 14, 2023 - 09:34 am: Edit

The secondary hulls don't need impulse engines. What they *do* need is the ability to just continue to use warp power for movement even after separation.

So, after separation, the saucer moves with whatever power systems it has (as it currently does). But, the secondary hull can still use its warp engines to move normally. It likely gets no break on movement rate, but can still move normally with warp power.

In other words, all rear hulls (both Federation and Klingon) should be able use Neo-Tholian rules for rear hull movement.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, December 14, 2023 - 11:25 am: Edit

Mike, I think that would be too useful and encourage ship separation. Also it would be unprecedented for a ship (or section) to only have warp and no impulse. I think you need impulse for some things, like planetary orbits. But I am going off memory.

SVC, I am only thinking in terms of getting the hull back to base after the battle (if it survives), since sections can't rejoin on their own. I wouldn't want this to become a tactical thing. Especially considering the economic cost of 2X ships.