SVC did a WONDERFUL THING by creating SFB. Look at the Profound Positive Impact he had on your Life. And MANY OTHERS (including Mine).

"I got CL#6 when it came out with the original 12 TCs, used them a few times with friends, but didn't actually start playing tournament SFB till the early 90's; I went to Origins the first time in 1995 (Philly), got demolished, but at that point, the rules and ships were all pretty set."

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Sure thing. SFB is still my favorite game; still fun and interesting after playing it for, what, almost 40 years now.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 08:03 pm: Edit

The best reason for the Kzinti and Klingon to have scatterpacks and the other D&D races not is to make them different. If they all had the same weapons, it would be kinda pointless including more than one. Consider the Neo-Tholian: it's kinda redundant because the Archie is essentially the same but marginally better; it might get more play if it were sufficiently different to be interesting.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, December 20, 2020 - 08:33 am: Edit

Yeah, the Neo Tholian was a perfectly reasonably, if somewhat underwhelming TC early on; when the ATC was made, the ATC is just completely better at doing the things that Tholians want to do (be fast, squirrelly, fight behind webs)--better power curve, more P1s, side arc disruptors, strong rear shields. Even with the power upgrade on the ATC, it is still just not that good relative to the ATC.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, December 20, 2020 - 10:38 am: Edit

Oh great give the overpowered GBS a scatter pack. Yup that ship will win all the tourneys then,

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, December 20, 2020 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Many changes have occurred over the years

The ISC once had 8 P1's.
The Orion once had four option mounts in the nose.
The Andro was very powerful against all ships (except for the Fed and Orion). The rules have since been modified concerning PA panels and energy balancing.
The Lyran eventually had their power increased. They got a one time UIM use.
And there is the infamous boo boo where the Wyn Aux had 20 APR.

One can trust the players in judging which ship they think is powerful by keeping track of what ships they decide to take at tournaments.

I note that the Frax can fire at a chasing opponent with all disruptors and P1's due the FX/RX arcs.

Even so, the Frax could be improved for tournament play. Perhaps a one use UIM. Perhaps 30 point shields. Did you all notice the #1 and #4 are 30 points with the rest being 24 points?

The ship that needs the most help is the Jindarian. It is still a work in progress. It is most vulnerable to seeking weapons.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, December 20, 2020 - 02:56 pm: Edit

I think the TKE is tied with the Jindarian.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, December 24, 2020 - 09:12 am: Edit

Norman,

Robert Schirmer had put together an analysis on wins and losses of each ship. Has anyone continued collecting data and posting results?

I thought I had a copy of the analysis but I can not find it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 24, 2020 - 09:29 am: Edit

There is tons of data on ships (i.e. the noted Schirmer Stats), but I don't know that they have been updated in years.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, June 06, 2022 - 08:05 pm: Edit

It's really too bad this beautiful game has a circumstance where a ship can simply move up the board to range 4, roll 8 dice, and do 82 points of damage on T2.

The game is almost certainly over. It would be better to just go ahead and assume that shot will happen, because it will, in almost every situation with today's players. That way you could just roll those dice and not waste your time playing at all.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Monday, June 06, 2022 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Jack Taylor:

While the outcome you mentioned certainly might happen on turn 2; I think most people would agree that defense in tournament SFB has the upper hand early in the game. That is, rarely can you drive in that quickly in the game and get a fatal shot unless your opponent has squandered his maximal defensive capabilities present in the early game.

If you are a learning player there is a phenomena whereby certain expert players may extend the midgame by playing very conservatively and betting on the likelihood that they are accumulating an advantage.

If you in fact find yourself on the losing end of a long game many times; then in fact a good change in strategy is to look to play a ship with decent crunch power; and then look to go in close for a 50/50 chance of winning on turn 3-5 rather than waiting any longer (maybe even turn 2). I am presuming that if you are caught in the losing side of a lot of long games then 50/50 odds is better than where you are at. If so, then engaging and getting lucky with dice (the top 50% of outcomes not the bottom 50%) and ending the game quickly is a better strategy than stringing it out.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 08:57 am: Edit

There are basically two kinds of ships. Those that depend of seeking weapons and those that don't.

So a Fed got range 4 on you, hit with all 4 OL Photons and phasers? What were you conning?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 09:48 am: Edit

That is called Photon Roulet. You hit and phasers do well You win.. unless You eat a 100 points of plasma doing it .

Seekers do not miss but can be avoided. Drones you have only so many. Plasma takes forever to reload. What makes this game fun is the different tactics needed to win vs other races/ships.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 10:43 am: Edit

Mike you are correct about everything - and - I was flying the Lyran.

I don't think there is any tactic a Lyran can create to win the game if the Fed with no internals gets to range 4 and rolls 4,4,4,4 with photons and rolls 1,1,4,4 with only 4 p1's. That's not a great roll or anything. Six 4's and the game is over.

Of course six 5's instead and the Fed is probably dead. It just sucks that these situations can happen in a game that really needs a ton of skill to play most of the time and bad luck once usually doesn't mean you are dead. In this case, it always means you are dead.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 11:33 am: Edit

Jack:

The Lyran CA (1) has a faster operational speed than the Fed CA (particularly when the Fed has overloaded torps, as in the case you describe) and (2) has a better turn mode than the Fed CA.

You're supposed to use that. Among other things, you use that to force the range between you to close from five to three on a given impulse (so that you can smack the Fed with a full-power range-3 ESG for his trouble). But you can also use it to deny him that close-in shot at all, using your disruptors to cut him to ribbons turn after turn after turn at ranges where his photons are dubious at best.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Jessica,
When the Fed is holding the torps it has a better power curve than a Lyran. IE T2 after the Fed has juiced op the torps on T1 and on T2 is using 2 pts per tube holding the 16 point OLs. And the fabled 5-3 hex jump is very difficult to achieve against an opponent who is looking for it.
The Lyran is best planning to put up the ESGs to R3, bricking a shield, and hoping the FED misses with a torp, which is actually likely. The remainder of the turn, and the entire next turn, can be used to even things up, if not get ahead....

But yes, to Jack's point, if the FED hits with all ols and phasers, even through a brick, it's over...but at least it was a quick game

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Agree about the Fed power curve. The question is, did the Fed get R4 without losing a photon, and did he miss? Jackpot at R4 is only a 1 in 5 shot, roughly. And 3 photons is survivable, 2 photons is probably a win for the Lyran. The Feds (more than but in addition to the Lyrans) are on Team Rolling Dice. They roll dice.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 02:35 pm: Edit

I used to believe as you do Andy, but I don't fear the Fed in the Lyran. At Origins one year I did do as you suggested, and put a brick on the shield, then did a "hack and slash" attack followed by 2xsuicide and was able to do well..
But I do believe the "Fabled 5-3" jump is also a good way to go.
Gregg

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Tuesday, June 07, 2022 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Just some thoughts...

1) The question was asked, in a game that is so tactical, why is the Fed allowed to roll fairly well (not great, not poor) and obliterate their target?

I interpret this question as asking if the Photon itself is a viable and fair weapon within the game.

To me, the Photon is basically double a Disruptor (roughly) which takes twice as long. To balance out the increased damage, the To-Hit Chances were reduced.

I think this is fair. The Photon seems fine to me. And consequently, the Feds, who happen to use the Photon as their primary heavy weapon.

2) The Lyran can zip around at high speed, avoiding the Fed (and R4), especially if it does not arm its Disruptors and ESG's. But the Fed will just turn and chase. At some point, the Lyran will have to engage.

3) Suicide Shuttles can help (as an improvised Seeking Weapon), but they are slow. They are best saved for after the initial Alpha Strike, but another possibility is to put them in-between your ship and the closing Fed, as a type of obstacle. They will, at least, absorb Phaser Fire. But on T2, I believe the Lyran will only have 1 SS.

4) Tractor Beams won't help, since the Fed will already have taken their shot at R4.

5) Under normal circumstances, the Lyran could use ECM to throw off the Fed's To-Hit Chances.

6) The slower the Lyran goes, the more powerful their Brick becomes. Moving Speed 0 or becoming a Turtle comes to mind, but those are Non-Aggression Tactics. Maybe something Close to them, but not quite the same...

7) If the Lyran can create a Brick of at least 16 points, it can withstand one of the OL Photons. The Lyran's 30 Point Shield#1 should be able to withstand two more of the OL Photons. That leaves 1 OL Photon and Phasers, which would score 16 + 18 (based on Jack's 82 points of damage example) = 34 Internals. This is survivable and will certainly not "kill" the Lyran (damage it, yes).

8) A HET can be a useful tactical tool. Even if the Lyran can't use the HET to prevent the R4 Photon Alpha Strike, it can use a HET to confuse and disorient the Fed about when it is actually going to engage. This would mean going high speed, having the Fed chase, and then employing the HET at some point in a fake engagement. Not sure what this would actually accomplish (since the Fed will still be holding 4 OL Photons), but the Lyran might catch the Fed at an odd angle on the map. Another use would be to HET right after taking the Fed's Alpha Strike to bring a fresh shield to bear.

9) Ideally, the Lyran should have the advantage of Initiative. What I mean by this is that the Disruptor fires more often, from further away, and with more accuracy than the Photon.

So the plan becomes to fire at R5, right before the Fed's attempt to fire at R4.

Four OL Disruptors at R5 hit on a 1-4 and score 6 damage each. That is 24 damage total if they all hit (since the Fed hits with all four Photons in Jack's example, it seems only fair the Lyran would hit with all of its OL Disruptors at R5). As the Fed has a 30 point Shield#1, these four OL Disruptors will nearly take down the Shield#1, assuming it's not reinforced.

Then add 6 PH-1's at R5 from the Lyran. These would be the four FA PH-1's and either of the two RS/LS PH-1's. At R5, the PH-1's would auto-hit, scoring from 12 damage to 30 damage total, depending on the rolls. This will certainly bring down the Fed's Shield#1, scoring either a few internals or a good amount of internals. The goal here is to knock out at least 1 Photon Torpedo so the Fed cannot fire it at R4. Losing even 1 Photon Torpedo will greatly diminish the Fed's Alpha Strike of 82 damage at R4.

If the Lyran can get a centerline shot at the Fed, it will have not just two RS/LS PH-1s, but four. That means even more internals through the down shield#1 at R5.

If the Fed does manage to fire at R4, the Lyran can then apply 2 ESG's, scoring an additional 30-40 damage through the Fed's down shield#1. The Lyran has to hit the Fed with the ESG's right after it fires its Photons and before it can turn (to bring a fresh shield to face the Lyran).

10) As Peter has alluded to a few times, some matchups might just be bad for one side. In this case, the Lyran has no Drones or Plasmas to use in order to prevent the Fed from approaching and reaching R4. It's possible this could just be one of those "bad matchups", since the Fed is not perfect and loses to other ships as well.

11) The Feds are the Good Guys and the Lyrans are the Bad Guys. This explains why the Lyran gets blown up by the Fed.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, June 08, 2022 - 12:22 am: Edit

I wasn't really asking questions but am glad there are so many folks interested.

There really should be more discussion of some sort here.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, June 08, 2022 - 12:14 pm: Edit

I like the tactics talk as well. I used to live for this thread in the old days

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 10:16 am: Edit

Since we all would like to see more discussion here:

I know a guy, we will call him "Stan". Hypothetically Stan is flying a TKR versus a very good ISC player. We will call him "Gregg" with 2 G's.

Stan is a slightly below average player. Been playing a long time but can't seem to improve. Gregg is clearly the better player and gentleman, by far.

Stan (TKR) is struggling with a battle plan against Gregg (ISC). That ISC ship is tough. Anyone got ideas or thoughts?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Would that not be "Gregg" with three Gs?

Although, based on some of the credits listed in certain SFB modules, I would have sooner associated the name "Gregg" (with 3 Gs) with the Paravians, rather than the ISC...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 13, 2022 - 12:40 pm: Edit

>>I don't think there is any tactic a Lyran can create to win the game if the Fed with no internals gets to range 4 and rolls 4,4,4,4 with photons and rolls 1,1,4,4 with only 4 p1's.>>

I mean, yeah, that's a terrible situation. And the Lyran has a tough time against the Fed for exactly this reason--no drones or plasma or anything at all to prevent this sort of thing. The trick with the Lyran is, as Gregg points out above, is to do the "5 to 3" jump with the ESGs out, and the Lyran wins that fight. It is hard to do, but if you can pull it off (HET or unplotted speed change is usually needed), the Lyran will likely come out ahead.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 - 10:02 pm: Edit

The TKR has better torps (S vs G). A simple tactic for the TKR to try is to use enveloping S torps. Ideally, one wants to launch them at range 10. If the ISC fires the PPD at range 10 and hits, the TKR's goal is to slip or turn out to get range 11. This will force a reroll. The ISC has a slightly worse roll to make (8 instead of a 9) in order to maintain the PPD wave lock. Sometimes the ISC does miss.