Archive through July 01, 2024
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Rules Questions:
Questions on Ships:
Archive through July 01, 2024
It's mentioned in various places there were limits on production of 15-box engines. NCA's using 15-box engines would take away from CA production.
What ever happened to the original Klingon D5F from the old Commanders Edition which had four Romulan sourced Plasma-F torps in place of the four disruptors? (not to be confused with the current D5F Anti-Fighter cruiser with four ADD Racks).
I recall it was described as a one off ship that was equipped with the Plasama-F torps as a special testing platform but never repeated. Given that it's only F torps, I don't see why it's considered too much crunch power for the Klingons. And with the Gorns supplying F-Torps and Caronade technology to the Federation, why wouldn't there be at least a small effort of the same from the Romulans to the Klingons? Especially when considering that the Romulans gave entire ships to the Klingons (Sparowhawks).
It's like the entire idea was abandoned and summarily forgotten about without a trace of recognition the idea had ever been explored.
t was to put an en to tech sloshing. Hydras with plasma torpedoes. Gorns with photons, Lyrns with drones.
Robert, Two things the only reason Feds wanted Plasma Torpedoes was to use carranades to hunt Cloaked Ships. The Klingons do not have this problem.
Second the Romulans did not willing give those Sparrowhawks to the Klingons. Iirc the Alliance had cut the Supply Lines stranding a Squadron of SPH and D5 in each other's territory and the just swapped
The Federation was allowed to keep their plasma-Fs simply because they were to embedded. There were no scenarios involving the D5Fs as plasma ships which, at the time was the only Klingon ships with the technology. The Federation also got to keep phaser-Gs, but note that they were very restricted in terms of numbers and deployment. (mostly carrier groups.)
Question about the Gorn FF:
Was this ever ship ever used as a front line warship prior to the General War or has it always been a Police Frigate? The pre-GW time period saw the Fed VT and the Klingon E3 used as warships but then relegated to the police forces of their empires -- did this happen to the FF.
Thanks
I can't answer for Canon, Raider, but given the cargo boxes on the Gorn FF, I can picture the early versions of that ship being used as THE forward supply ship class for early years operations against Romulans and Paravians.
I can just picture the statement made before the Gorn legislature; "We do NOT need to wasste money unnescesssarily on these expenssive cruiser ssized tugss and their podss when we have a perfectly ssuited dessign with thiss frigate!"
If more ssupliess... Excuse me, SUPPLIES are needed than what one frigate can haul, they'd have a second one accompany it.
Those ships would, of necessity, be part of the Navy, not the police. However, their inadequacy at the role would soon become apparent, hence the need to develop the tugs and pods, and rather than waste the monies needed to design and build them, they just seconded them to the police forces.
Again, this is, of course, just my opinion, so it's probably wrong... 
Chuck Strong:
From the Gorn Master Starship Book:
Quote:... the frigate was designed for police duties, but during the General War was occasionally forced into direct combat roles.
While that doesn't definitively answer the question, it seems, at least to me, to suggest that prior to the General War, use of the FF in "direct combat roles" was probably extremely rare, and limited to emergencies.
My sincere apologies if I (or someone) asked about this before but I could not find it anywhere on the board. In a campaign I'm running, it would help to know the specifics of G14.73 so I'm sticking to the intent of the creators if not the "Letter of the Law".
(G14.73) STRATEGIC FREIGHTER DEPLOYMENT, mentions Freighters can be carried "as cargo" by tugs. But it doesn't go into any real detail indicating how or what.
I think one can draw the conclusion that the number of freighter pods present would establish that a typical Tug can haul one Small Freighter, two Small Freighters, or one Large Freighter. But G14.73 does not include enough information specifying this. Based on the above, I assume that typical LTT's and Theater Transport (Mini Tugs), can only carry one Small Freighter (not two and not a Large Freighter). Or are LTT's and Mini Tugs even allowed to use G14.73 at all? For that matter, G14.73 leaves us in an even more vague place when considering some of the more nuanced less typical tug types out there...
Can a Federation TUG haul only one Small Freighter and not a Large Freighter at all? or does it carry some kind of bracing/mounting framework to accommodate a Large Freighter? The same for two Small Freighters (end to end)?
"G14.742 Romulan SPHs carry one small ground base in place of each cargo module, not two."
Implies the cargo module position is less capable than a normal pod mounting position. Does this mean an SPH carries no Freighters at all or can it carry two (F-S)?
"...Romulan Freight Eagles can carry two small ground bases in place of their cargo pallet." Might this indicate an FE can carry a Small Freighter?
G14.744 really gets us into the weeds.
"...While other Tholian ships can carry cargo packs (R7.14), only CPCs and LTTs can carry bases."
The above seems to establish that there is indeed something different about Tholian CPC's & LTT's by mentioning the fact that only they can carry ground bases (two), while other Tholian ships can still carry only a cargo pack. Does this imply Tholian CPC's & LTT's can carry a Small Freighter? Or not?
I would think that, as a base minimum, any ship that can carry a pod can carry a small freighter. I don't see how anything can carry a large freighter, though, without some serious handwavium.
Don't forget that pods have attachment points that match the tugs, most freighters won't …
Freighters are made out of Tug Pods...
It shouldn't be that hard to set them up where a tug can grab and go with one.
Or the pod attachment points on the freighter are "backward/ forward" compatable. So your LTT/ Tug can grab a freighter in exactly the same way as it would grab a pod.
G14.73 clearly states that tugs can carry freighters. What I want to know is whether it's Small Freighters only, or multiple Small Freighters or also Large Freighters and whether there are any special ships that cannot (despite being a tug) or have certain limitations.
This is just a guess, so not very helpful.
There is a hard limit on 2 pods. Given that, I presume 2 small freighters could be carried.
Some tugs are designated side by side tugs, the rest are inline or other configurations.
My guess is that a side by side tug could carry a large freighter but an inline tug could not.
From a practical sense, if it has its own engines, the need to be 'tugged' anywhere would be a most unusual or rare situation. There are also harbor tugs and salvage tugs and specialty ships that might better serve a given situation? Dont even get me started with Andromedans. Again, just guessing. Absolutely nothing official here.
If your tug has a battle pod, I assume that it's a tug-of-war. If two tugs tractor beam each other, is that also a . . .
Well, (in the grander scheme of things, not just during battle speeds), aren't Freighters significantly slower than most warships? And as (G14.73) states in bold: "STRATEGIC FREIGHTER DEPLOYMENT".
So I would assume a Tug would carry a Freighter to its area of operations in order to save the Freighter time on traveling there on its own.
As for Harbor and Salvage tugs, they are purpose built for entirely different missions than Tugs are. In fact, Harbor Tugs aren't even meant to travel beyond their home systems (certainly not for long).
Given that every single freighter has a turbo lift that runs directly over where the cargo pod attachment point would be, I think it is fair to say that another means of attachment is used. So, if every tug has the ability to modify their attachment to carry a freighter, then I would imagine that such a thing works on large freighters, too.
So, if I were ruling on this (and I'm not because I can't), I'd say that tugs are limited by "pod weights", attachment points and balance considerations. For pod weights, pretend the freighter is just its pods, ignoring the command and engine sections. Also, remember the cargo pod size rules (a civilian pod is standard weight for a Federation tug, but double-weight for a Klingon tug).
This will result in some fun, but interesting situations. For example:
- A Fed tug can carry a small freighter as a standard weight pod, or a large freighter as a double weight pod. But it can't carry two freighters because they can't be chained.
- A Hydran tug would, oddly enough, work like the Feds.
- A Klingon can carry a single small freighter centerline as a normal weight pod. But it can also carry two small freighters side-by-side as double-weight pods. It can carry a single large freighter as double weight pods, it I doubt it can carry two large freighters side-by-side, as they are too "heavy".
- Kzinti would be the same as a Klingon.
- Lyran would work as if it is using double weight Klingon pods.
- ISC would likely only be able to carry two small freighters or nothing at all, because it has no centerline position and because of balance limitations.
- Gorns are weird. I assume they would work like the Feds.
- All LTTs can carry one small freighter, though it is normal weight or double-weight depending on the size of the empire's normal cargo pod. If a small freighter is single-weight then the LTT can also carry a large freighter as double-weight.
- FFTs can carry a single small freighter, though it is single-weight or double-weight depending on the empires normal cargo pod. FFTs cannot carry larger freighters.
That's how I would approach it. This simply builds on the existing rules, but does require one base assumption that I think is fairly safe because all of the artwork and minis eliminate other obvious possibilities.
For transport ships in the Alpha Octant, there are specific rules in Federation and Empire as to which kind of transport can undertake what sort of mission, and to what extent. "Full-sized" tugs are detailed under (509.0); LTTs are detailed under (516.0); while theatre transports (such as the Romulan Freight Eagle or the Tholian cargo patrol corvette) are outlined in (539.7).
Other, more unorthodox transport types are covered in their own rules; for example, the Romulan SparrowHawk-H (and, by extension, the "GryphonHawk-H") is (or are) covered by (516.33).
Under (517.0), there are rules to cover the use of specific tug pods - though only certain "mission variants" require specific pod counters in that game system. This also includes the concept of "overloading" a transport hull, and what movement and other restrictions doing so imposes on the hull in question.
Tugs can also be used to move mobile bases and FRDs. Notably, while it takes two LTTs (or three theatre transports) working together to move or deploy a mobile base, an LTT can carry an FRD as well as a tug can. Theatre transports cannot move FRDs, however.
-----
In the case of the Romulans, they are historically limited by two factors: the lack of "mission" pods, although there are campaign conjectural Klingon-type pods offered in SFB Module R9; and the limits imposed by the use of "modular" cargo packs on the aforementioned SPH and GHH.
For the Romulans to be able to carry "full-sized" pods on a Hawk-series cruiser variant, they would have to hard-weld a pair of "-T" modules to the base hull, and install the "bracing" needed to turn the hull in question into a "true" tug or LTT. In other words, to produce the campaign-conjectural SparrowHawk-T and FireHawk-T, both of which are also in Module R9 - and, perhaps, a would-be "GryphonHawk-T" to match.
Simply put, the SPH (and GHH) cannot carry pods; you'd need to build a dedicated SPT or FHT (or would-be GHT) to do so.
-----
By and large, I would suggest that the size and number of freighters a given transport can carry would depend on a few things: how many pods they are permitted to carry; how many "pod-weights" are involved; and where the pods are being attached to the hull.
For example: an ISC Tug can carry two pods or none; it cannot carry one at a time. However, as shown on Shapeways, these pods are separated by the tug's central "prong". So, while I would say this ship can carry two small freighters at once, i would agree with the above post (which appeared while I was in the midst of typing this one) that it cannot carry a single large freighter.
In contrast, the Klingon T7 has its pod mounts below the secondary hull, as shown here. This should, again in my view (and again agreeing with the above post), permit the ship to carry one or two small freighters, or a single large freighter.
As for the Federation Tug, it might depend on how it carries the pods used for a mobile base. If the base's central pods have to be carried in an "inline" manner and assembled on-site, then I would say that no, the tug cannot carry a large freighter - since the required connectors and balancing factors would not be present. However, if carrying a large freighter is no more troublesome than, say, carrying a "double-weight" battle pod, then it would appear that the Ptolemy- class can indeed be used for this purpose.
In contrast, since LTTs cannot carry mobile bases all by themselves, I would argue that they should not be able to carry large freighters - though small freighters should be no problem.
Of course, I defer to ADB's wisdom in all regards.
-----
On a side note: the "lost empire" Paravians in Module C6 have both dreadnought- and battleship-sized Raid Motherships; these can carry three or four pods at a time respectively, with no Turn Mode or Move Cost limitations imposed!
As seen on Shapeways, the dreadnought RMS (or DNR, in F&E terms) carries all three of its pods below the main hull. So I would argue that it should be able to carry a jumbo freighter - and that the battleship RMS (or BBR) should be able to carry a heavy freighter.
-----
As a further aside, the M81 Pirate Raider in Captain"s Log #40 is specifically noted as being able to dock to and tow a large freighter under its oversized port wing. However, the largest the M81 Pirate Destroyer can carry is a small freighter (or equivalent thereof).
Well everyone,
Unless an official SFB ruling wieghs in differently, your above suggestions are more or less what I was leaning toward going with (mainly based on number of Pods).
Thanks very much.
Rus
Can size class-4 ships operate as a carrier of Heavy Fighters and if so where is the SFB reference?
Well, there are the HDWs from Module R6 that can be equiped with Mechlinks. The Fed one would carry heavy fighters. Size-4 units allthough somewhere on the edge to size-3.
And the Federation Light Attack Carrier ADW from Module R11 (R2.140) which carries as half squadron of F-111 heavy fighters like the light PFTs.
I don't know any frigates but war destroyers seem to carry operational heavy fighters/PFs and not only as FCRs.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Soeren Klein
The Kzinti master starship book lists the DDV as able to operate 6xLKF during the appropriate time period.
Here is a list of units that have heavy fighters in their escort listing:
Federation ADW (R2.140)
Federation DDV (R2.144)
Federation DDV (Y178) (R2.144)
Federation FBV (R2.149)
Federation HDV (R2.A25A)
Kzinti DWV (R5.67)
Kzinti ADW (R5.115)
Kzinti DWVP (R5.A17)
Tholian DDV (R7.57)
Hydran UH (R9.17)
Hydran DWV (R9.76)
Lyran DDV (R11.109)
WYN DWV (R12.35)
ISC CVE (R13.30)
ISC FFV (R13.66)
LDR DWV (R14.31)
Seltorian DDV (R15.21)
Vudar DWV (R17.22)
Vudar FFV (R17.28)
My copy of Module G3 shows the Civilian Base Station (BSC) with a BPV of 100.
It also lists Product Where Published as R1/C3.
My copy of R1 does not list a BPV price anywhere that I can find for the BSC.
My copy of Module C3 shows the SSD for the BSC with BPV marked as 120/90.
What is the correct BPV for the Civilian Base Station (BSC) and is it published somewhere else?
The R1.35 BSC is only published in C3 (SSD on pg 79).
As the base stations in R1 also have a BPV of 120, but this could be an assumption all the optional weapons have been added.