K IS FINISHED. THANKS

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 24, 2024 - 03:45 pm: Edit

REPRINT OF Y1
This is another 216 sheet being expanded to 280. Ideas for using the 64 new counters are welcome, but let's not go insane. I don't want to include ships not in the product but we might include newsletter or Caplog ships. I don't want to do another strip of F&E counters to trim off and sell separately.

Gary, I am looking at you, buddy.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 24, 2024 - 03:47 pm: Edit

The pink ones are up for grabs. Anybody want to do an early Hydran civil war? The center columns are new blank counters.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Wednesday, July 24, 2024 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Do we already have counters for the Kzinti Civil War scenarios presented in Module Y2? If not, can we add them here or does that need to wait for a future revision of the Y2 countersheet?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, July 24, 2024 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Hmmm, first thought was for 'early shuttles' or 'early tug pods' but any 'normal' type could be used plus stealing from Y2 or Y3 wouldn't make sense … extra drone counters for the Klingons, Kzinti, and Andorians (Carnivon DBs) also fit as would extra plasma counters (Paravians QWTs) …

Nothing presents itself at this time …

[Finally remembered the space boars for the 'SBRs']

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Wednesday, July 24, 2024 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Early Hydran civil war would make sense, since they spent the better part of thirty years in such.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 11:37 am: Edit

I would like to see one pink side be for Hydran civil war and the other for Kzinti civil war. For both, just duplicate the base set of ships in the alternative colors. That still leaves some free, but I think the bulk should cover both empires got their frequent civil conflicts.

I also suggest some minor rearrangement to group empires better. (For example, making sure all Orion ships are in a single group.)

I have to look at the ship list to make suggestions for the extra columns.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 11:54 am: Edit

Orions in different factions.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 12:55 pm: Edit

The Orions were a national fleet in this period so I don't see the need for them to have factional counters.

The Lyrans likely fought civil wars in the Early Years (since that is pretty much the norm for them) and the background for the Carnivons implies that the various Packs and Hordes often fought among themselves as well.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 01:58 pm: Edit

You can't do both the Carnivons and the Kzintis with civil war counters. You can only do one. Yes, the Carnivons fought among themselves. But, a Kzinti civil war is a significant event in the presented history. I think it would be pretty useful to provide the counters that allow that conflict to be played out. (Isn't at least one such scenario included?)

On the Orions, I think the WDR and WCA should be printed in Federation colors, not Orion colors (The Y-ships do need to be in Orion colors.) But civil war counters aren't needed for them because they effectively are the "civil war faction" in this time period.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 03:39 pm: Edit

I believe there are no less than 9 Kzinti Civil War scenarios in Module Y2. I don't believe there were any in Y1 or Y3.

Note the the Y2 countersheet has modern graphics but is an old 216 countersheet that could (possibly) be expanded to 280 in a future printing.

Y3 is a completely up-to-date 140 countersheet so if we wanted civil war counters for any of the Kzinti ships presented in that product they would need to be added to either the Y1 or Y2 countersheet (or Y4 if that ever happens).

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Looking at the Kzinti Civil War scenarios in Y2 these are the ships you would need to play (based on the maximum number of ships of a given type in use in a single scenario):

Usurper/Rebels:
YDN, YCC, 2 YCS, 2 YCL, 5 YFF, YDF, Tug, 2 WCA, 2 WDD

Patriarch/Loyalists:
YDN, YCC, 2 YCS, 2 YCL 4 YFF, Tug, (listed as Loyalist Faction Leader: YBS, WCA, WDD)

Undeclared Faction Leaders (all in the same scenario):
FL1: WCA, 2 WDD
FL2: YCS, YFF
FL3: 3 YFF
FL4: 2 YCL

Y1 countersheet has:
YDN, YCC, 3 YCS, 3 YFF, 3 WCA, 3 WDD, YDK, YBS

Y2 countersheet has:
3 YCL, YDF, YTG
+ (ship type not used in Y2 scenarios): YSR. YCD, YCO, WDN, WCC, WDG

Y3 countersheet has:
(ship type not used in Y2 scenarios): YBB, 3 YCA, 3 WCL, 3 WCI, 3 WFF, WSR

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 25, 2024 - 05:46 pm: Edit

The Lyrans have civil wars too.
Are there no civil war counters in Y2 or Y3?
Still waiting for Gary C to chime in.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 12:42 pm: Edit

A few thoughts, in non-sequential order:

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For the Orions, I would suggest using some of the "spare" blue counter space to offer dedicated "loyal" Orion WDD counters - as in, to cover those Orion destroyers which stayed in the Orion Enclave in Y113 - as well as one or two counters to represent early "government" bases to be found in the Enclave proper.

I would still suggest these "Enclave" counters be the same colour as Orion Pirate counters, since the Terrans already claim the use of the "WCA" and "WDD" counters in Federation colours for their own ships of these respective classes.

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In light of the various "lost empire" timelines in Module C6, I would request that some of the added red and green counters be used to help bring the Paravians and Carnivons up to "full" empire status.

In the case of the Paravians, this might include an additional set of Y-era warship counters, as well as more base counters - enough to support the creation of "Mapsheet P". Note that, in those alternate timelines where said mapsheet is brought into being, First Contact between the Paravians and ISC is in Y110; therefore, the onus here would be on offering more Y-era counters for the Paravians to use against this new enemy.

For the Carnivons, more Y-hull counters and more bases would help mainly in the "Carnivon Empire" timeline - since in the "Cluster Carnivon" timeline, the Lyrans and Kzintis do not discover the existence of the Carnivons in the WYN Cluster until well after the Early Years era is over.

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In terms of "civil war" counters, I would agree that the Usurper War would have the highest priority in this era - but that care might need to be taken in terms of how many of these "rebel" Kzinti counters might be best placed to go in a would-be Module Y2 countersheet revision, since that is where the scenarios for this conflict are actually published.

In other words, if it's just as well to put them here, well and good. But if it isn't, I would pick some other empire to add here instead.

As for which one: both the Lyrans and Carnivons would be good choices, though I'd perhaps lean towards the latter over the former - if only because there are no major Lyran civil wars noted in the Alpha Octant timeline for the Early Years era, whereas the division of the Carnivons into mutually antagonistic Hordes is more "baked in" to the Early Years setting (outside of the alternatives offered in Module C6, at least).

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In terms of the Hydrans, my understanding is that most Hydran "civil wars" are played out on the grounds of the Royal Palace on Hydrax - or, in the case of the Old Colonies, on whichever of those off-map planets serves as the temporary capital when the home world is under foreign occupation.

Indeed, perhaps one of the reasons why much of Minxitith was rendered uninhabitable in Y101 was due to unforeseen spillovers from various "ground" battles fought there? Given how Module Prime Alpha describes how the floating continents of class-S gas giants operate, it's possible that collateral damage might manifest in very different ways compared to what happens on a class-K/L/M/N/O world in similarly unfortunate circumstances.

However, there is a war in space which the Hydrans fight while in exile: the conquest of the Borak Star League in Y88.

In principle, one could sieve out the Early Years Borak units previewed in Module E3, offer them on this countersheet, and then encourage players to play out these battles in SFB terms.

Although, if it was better to wait until a would-be "Module Y4" is up for consideration, in which one could both formally publish the "historical" Early Years Borak fleet, as well as to offer a set of matching counters for them at that same time, well and good.

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On a side note: one could, in theory, offer a few Peladine counters, based on their Early Years data previewed in Module E4. Although, as is the case for the Early Years ISC, the Peladine in this time period are set apart from other Alpha Octant factions; their fateful encounter with the Lyrans does not take place until the Middle Years era.

Unless one wanted to one day offer an alternate timeline in which the Peladine were more active in building a star empire of their own, akin to the "Borak Deception History" provided for that species in Module E3. In which case, there might well have been a more wide-ranging Y-era Peladine fleet for the Lyrans - and perhaps the "Carnivon Empire" also - to encounter out in the Delta Sector?

In any case, if the Early Years Peladine were best kept in reserve for a would-be "Module Y4" also, that's fair enough.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Well, SVC said that only ships in the module should get counters. Maybe an exception for CL or newletter, but not for any other Y-module or other modules in general.

I would still like to get rebel Kzinti counters included that are specifically for the Kzinti ships included in this module. Any extras would have to wait for the Y2 counter reprint. But, assuming SVC wants Y2 counters to focus on Y2, putting the rebel Kzinti counters for the ships included in Y1 into the Y1 counter sheet would appear to make a lot of sense.

Here are some specific suggestions. Going by blocks of twenty, starting at the top left to bottom left, then top right to bottom right.

Top left: Add a Fed WDD and YFF, to four counters of each.
Second left: Add two Y-pod counters and one Orion WCA and one Orion WDR in Federation colors. (The existing Orion WCA are moved.)
Third left: Move the two Orion WCA counters to the two open slots. This puts all of the white-on-blue Orions in a single block.
Fourth left: Add Hydran MSK and VOL, to three counters of each.
Fifth left: Add one each of WDD, WCA, YFF, YCS. (The existing Gorn YDK and YBS are moved.)
Sixth left: Add two Y-pod counters.
Seventh left: Duplicate the fifth right block (Kzinti), but using Kzinti rebel colors. Counters are identical, including the YDK and YBS.
Top right: Add a second Romulan WB and Romulan SN.
Second right: Add a Paravian WFF and WDD.
Third right: Add a Paravian YDD and YCL.
Fourth right: Add a Carnivon WFF and YFF.
Fifth right: Move the Gorn YDK and YBS here.
Sixth right: Add a Lyran WFF and YFF.
Seventh right: This is where things get creative ...
One each of rebel Hydran FUS, GRE; two each of rebel Hydran MSK and VOL.
One each of rebel Lyran WCA, YCA; two each of rebel Lyran WFF, YFF.
Four General UFS; two General UFL.
Two General YBS.

So, that last block of twenty gets three background colors instead of just one. However, that was one on the Module K sheet, and here it only happens in a single place. This is all, of course, just a suggestion, if not just a thought experient. The idea is to give everyone a couple extra counters, focusing on small ships so full fleets can be more easily fielded. Then add in some "missing" counters like the unarmed freighters and some pods for the Federation and Klingons. And, since the Kzintis are the only ones that (eventually) need a full rebel fleet, the others can have smaller rebel fleets, giving both the Lyrans and the Hydrans some rebels to fight with, in any time period.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 02:40 pm: Edit

A note on the Orions:

On the Y2 countersheet the Orions have black lettering on a blue background but also have a white "O" in the lower right corner of the counter. The Enclave ship grapics are green but the pirate ships (YCR, YLR) have a variety of hull colors.

On the Y3 countersheet all of the lettering on the Orion counters is white (on a blue background) and all of the ship graphics are green (but there are only Enclave ships in this product).

In this context, I'm not sure what it means for Orion ships to be in "Federation" colors vs. "Orion" colors.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Actually, that's a fair point ...

AFTER Module Y1, the colors for the various Federation national fleets was standardized. The countersheet for Y1 should probably be updated to match.

According to YG3, we should have:
AC: Green on Blue
Andorian: Blue on Blue
Orion Enclave: Green on Blue
Rigellian: Red on Blue
Terran: White on Blue
Vulcan: Orange on Blue.

Presumably Andorians use a light Blue on Blue, and the AC and Orion Enclave use different Greens. And I don't know why the Terrans are White on Blue, as that is Orion Pirate colors. So, that all probably has to be verified.

But, the point is that the Federation National fleets have designated colors, and these counters should be updated to reflect them.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 04:53 pm: Edit

With the updated counter graphics based on the Master Starship Books the embedded colors for all Empires now match the dominant color of the painted miniatures. So Annex #7A "Color of Counters" is no longer accurate for many Empires. That's why the newer counters have a letter in the lower right hand corner to indicate which empire the counter belongs to. If Annex #7A is ever updated they should probably add a column for the "Empire Code" shown on the counters.

Note that, according to Annex #7A, Kzinti Civil War units are White on Orange vs the Black on White of standard Kzinti counters. However, in updated products, Kzinti counters are now Red on White. So should the rebel Kzinti be Red on Orange or did they possibly repaint their ships during the war to a different color?

I think this would be especially relevant for people who play using miniatures. Should the rebel Kzinti have a different paint scheme/base color? If so, this should probably be reflected on their counters.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Thanks Mike, your plan is very good and I amusing it.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, July 26, 2024 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Note there are some Y1 ships that got extra counters in Y2 (especially the Hydrans):

Orions: WCA, 2 YCR, 2 YLR
Federation: YCA, YDD
Hydran: 2 GRE, 3 FUS, 2 MSK, 2 VOL
Carnivon: None
Kzinti: None
klingon: None
Romulan: None
Paravian: None
Gorn: YCL, WCA, 2 WDD
Lyran: None

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 27, 2024 - 02:12 am: Edit

That works out well with what I suggested above. Especially for the Feds and Orions.

The only possible modification I might suggest would be to swap the two Hydran ships I listed for an additional pair of Carnivon shuttles. That would give them four total, and the Hydrans get the extra ships they need in Y2. However, giving them the two extra frigates is still quite valid. Either works well.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 27, 2024 - 03:44 pm: Edit

As an aside, since the Kzinti seemed to have a fairly standard paint scheme for their ships, and since the different factions would change sides when needed, I imagine that the ship paint schemes for the Kzinti is the same regardless of whether they are loyalist or usurper. So, I don't see why the counters would be reflective of anything other than what is needed to distinguish them from any other political faction.

Besides, if you are going by actual ship paint schemes, then the Federation and Orions are reversed. Federation ships are typically white or off-white, while unadorned Orion ships are typically just black. So, by this logic, Federation counters should be white on blue and Orion ship counters should be black on blue.

Not sure if I buy into this line of reasoning ...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, July 27, 2024 - 04:41 pm: Edit

I was just thinking it might be nice to have a way to visually distinguish rebel vs. loyalist ships when playing with miniatures but I take your point that it doesn't really work in scenarios where a faction can change sides.

Part of my concern was how the counters would look. The old Kzinti Civil War counters had a white silhouette on an orange background (good contrast) but updating them to the current format the counters would have red ships on an orange background (with white lettering) so I'm not sure this would contrast as well. But I suppose if people are fine with the Andorians being Blue on Blue then it really isn't a problem.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, July 27, 2024 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Were Kzinti Civil War counters ever published anywhere other than the "Star Fleet Battles Reinforcements" product published in 1984? I ask because Annex #7A says the counters were White ships on an Orange background but looking at the old countersheet they were actually Black on Orange.

Also that countersheet included a couple of shuttles for the Usurper's forces which is something we're missing on this countersheet (though I suppose they could use generic shuttles).

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, July 27, 2024 - 08:08 pm: Edit

F&E uses white on oarnge for the War of Return counters.