Here ya go. I created the topic but I'm not running this thing so don't expect me to set parameters. I don't really know who if anyone is running this. I just saw a note that somebody wanted the topic.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 08:27 am: Edit

Will it be 500 plus CO or including CO

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 09:32 am: Edit

Will be be Tournament rules or with ecm?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Will there be set squadrons, or do we get to buy or own crazy min-maxed squadrons made out of Orion cruisers?

:-)

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Why use points if it is tournament rules? You only have one ship per empire. Why have points if you cant pick your ships. Pick a year and go at it. ECM is the only way to go.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 02:25 pm: Edit

S8 rules I take it for the build

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 05:31 pm: Edit

'cause if people can pick whatever, you end up with a squadron of Orions or LDR.

If the GM (or whatever) picks a set of ships for each empire at 500 BPV, then everything is theoretically balanced out, and folks can pick whatever squadron they think is the best one, and you don't end up with everyone flying a squadron of Orion Battle Raiders.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 05:48 pm: Edit

well, This sounds interesting. If it is like the captain's log battle forces. Then COs are part of the force cost.

There should also be you cannot use certain ships in the force. As in no minesweepers or size class 2 ships. Perhaps no carriers are You must have a ship type. Or you may only have 2 size class 3 the rest must be size class 4.

There are a lot of ways to do this. I am very interested.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Saturday, January 18, 2025 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Seems that the idea is to pick the ships you want to play, GM picking all or a list turns me off from the beginning, As far as Orions and LDR there are much better ships. 500 points is 500 points is 500 points. Follow the S8 rules and you will not have a problem.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 04:07 am: Edit

Who is running this? Anyone?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 07:52 am: Edit

Presumably Geoff Clark, who asked to get this set up. I mean, I don't have any more information than "Geoff asked to put this forum up", but seems likely he is planning to run this thing.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 07:56 am: Edit

Hello Folks,

I asked for the topic, and I'll be running the tournament. The concept is from CL15, which is on page 45, Star Fleet 500-BPV Tournament. Some quick summary text and notes:

"The purpose of the 500-BPV tournament is to test a player's skill with some of the more advanced rules in the game system and to allow an SFB group to demonstrate their tactics in a small squadron battle. These rules are a modification of the standard tournament rules ... [Module T]. The Standard Tournament rules are considered in effect except where specifically modified below."

Year: original is Y174, but we will modify this to be Y180, so that all the tricks are available (fast drones, plasma sabot, drogues, fighters and WBP, etc. Lyrans get PFs, other races might have some, or at least the primitive ones ...). Y180 means no X-Ships!

BPV: Original is players fight at 510 BPV. Considering making this 550 BPV.

Player Number: There is a number of players limit of three, but I think we might modify this down to two, depending upon interest.

Time Limit: EA is 10 min ... we can discuss modification, but hope to stick to a time limit.

Force Selection: there are 500 point fleets listed, but we will be flexible ... but not too flexible. My initial thought is that any ship that can be build in Y180 from the F&E MSITs is valid ... within other rules. We will rule out DN/BB (size class 2), ships with special sensors (Scouts, PFTs), minelayers, commando ships. If the Roms / Klingons / Lyrans want a mauler, maybe its OK. Let's discuss other limits.

Orions ... might be a special case. We can discuss what is fair.

Map: Fixed four maps ... so 84 x 60 hexes.

Brief list of Rules Used:
* BPV and refits.
* Drone Racks and special drones
* Electronic Warfare
* Erratic Manuevers
* Nimble Ships
* Fighters, Dogfighting
* Mines (incl NSMs, but special rules ...)
* etc.

Please send me email if you are interested in playing!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 08:01 am: Edit

Eddie wrote:
>>Seems that the idea is to pick the ships you want to play, GM picking all or a list turns me off from the beginning, As far as Orions and LDR there are much better ships. 500 points is 500 points is 500 points. Follow the S8 rules and you will not have a problem.>>

We don't have any information at all yet about what the idea is, so let's just wait and see what the person running it decides to do.

Back in the day, when the company was bandying about an official multi-ship tournament format (which was in a Captain's Log at some point as a proto-idea), it came with pre-selected group of ships for each empire, which certainly had something to recommend it.

Like, history with this game for decades and decades suggests that 500 points is 500 points is 500 points is not necessarily a valid statement--4xD5s (about 500 points) is going to be *vastly* more effective than, say, 6xKzinti FFs (also about 500 points).

If we want an exercise in min-maxing squadrons of war cruisers, that is certainly a thing one can do. Conversely, making squadrons that are vaguely historical (CC, 2CW, DD or something) and doesn't always have the most optimized layout for the cost also has something to recommend it.

Again, like, I'm not in charge here or anything, but certainly am interested.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 08:30 am: Edit

Hey Peter, please see above!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 08:33 am: Edit

Heh, yeah, we clearly crossposted :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 11:06 am: Edit

I mean, I clearly have feelings on how the rules should probably work (some sort of limits on ships you can bring, maybe something like "you gotta have at least 2xSC4 ships and no SC2 ships" and "no more than 1 of any limited production ships" to avoid an all F6 squadron) and a lot of clarity on "commanders options" or not (I'm a big fan of "BPV is BPV. Spend what you need to spend. No extra free stuff.", so if you want 10 transporter bombs, that's 40 of your BPV, and if you want 50 fast drones, that is 50 of your BPV). And no wazoo empires (i.e. Orions, LDR, inside the cluster WYN). Limits on Web Casters and PPDs (which I think are both in S8, however). And folks submitting their forces to the GM to check the points spent, etc. But that's me, and I'm not in charge :-)

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Why leave out scouts, they are no more time consuming than leaving in tractors. electronic warfare is a great part of the game. I play Feds most of the time and love it, I never play without it. Really disappointed if it is not allowed. Peter I have played this game for 45 years, each fleet has its strengths, you need to learn to play to those. To many people want to play the cookie cutter tournament ships. Ew is part of the game always has been always should be. I have run over over the years many 500 point games and played in many. EW is an exciting part.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 01:43 pm: Edit

4x Orion Battle Raiders with 20 photons it is! Woo!

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 01:44 pm: Edit

The CL#15 rules have well-balanced squadrons laid out.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Copy and pasted from Cl#15 I just bought:

STAR FLEET 500-BPV TOURNAMENT
The purpose of the 500-BPV tournament is to test a
player’s skill with some of the more advanced rules in the game
system and to allow an SFB group to demonstrate their tactics
in a small squadron battle. These rules are a modification of the
standard tournament rules presented in the SFB MODULE T:
TOURNAMENT BOOK. The Standard Tournament rules are
considered in effect except where specifically modified below.
These “experimental” rules may be modified in the future.

| GENERAL CONDITIONS |
NUMBER OF PLAYERS: The number of ships available in
the 500-BPV Tournament varies between 3 to 5, depending on
the race chosen. To qualify for play in the tournament, each
team must have at least three players, and no more than one
player per ship.

TIME LIMITS: Each team will have 10 minutes each turn to
make plans and allocate energy. Each round can take no more
than four hours. Judges may authorize 30-minute extensions if
warranted.

VICTORY: Teams are expected to fight until all opposing
ships are destroyed or disengage. In the case of any unresolved
games, the judge will determine the winner through the use of
(S2.20) in the SFB rulebook. Players are not allowed to volun-
tarily surrender a ship. If a team abandons a game, a judge will
control their ships and try to disengage. If the time limit runs out,
judges will adjudicate the fate of each ship for point value pur-
poses. Judges reserve the right to review and revise scores in
the event of obvious collusion by one team to give the other
team a superior score.

FORCE SELECTION: Each team will pick one of the
BF500 forces made available at the start of the tournament.
These forces originally appeared in the BF500 entry in CL#7
and have been fully updated to Captain’s standards. No other
ships, options, or battle forces will be allowed.

DRONES: Ignore racial restrictions, but you won’t have
enough points to violate them anyway. You can exchange two
type-IMs for one type-IVM (maximum of four per ship, no trans-
fers between ships) but do not gain any BPV by doing so.

BETWEEN ROUNDS: A team’s ships are considered fully
repaired and reloaded between rounds. Destroyed ships are
considered replaced. It is unclear, in this experimental tourna-
ment, how many rounds will actually be played, or if overall vic-
tory will be determined by elimination or by some point system.
Teams may not change forces between rounds.

SCENARIO SET UP: Four maps will be used. Force A will
start on map#1 within 3 hexes of 0306; Force В will start on
map#4 within 3 hexes of 4024. All ships are at WS-III, speed
max, heading at the option of the owning team (all ships from
one team must start with the same heading). The map is fixed
and does not float. Force A may disengage by exiting the map
from the 01 xx hex row of maps #1 and #3. Force В may disen-
gage by exiting the map from the 42xx hex row of maps #2 and
#4. Any ship which disengages in any other direction is consid-
ered destroyed. No terrain will be used.

RULES USED: All rules allowed in the standard tourna-
ment are in effect, with the addition of the following rules:
ATG drones,
AEGIS fire control,
balcony and track systems,
boarding party combat,
BPVs,
chaff (Hydran fighters and MRS shuttles only),
chain reactions,
commander's options (defined in force lists),
crew units,
disengagement (only by leaving the map),
docking,
dogfighting (Hydran fighters and all shuttles),
drone racks (as per the SSDs),
special drones,
electronic warfare,
emergency damage repair,
erratic maneuvering,
launch tubes (Hydrans only),
landing in the opponent’s shuttle bay,
T-bombs, and
MRS shuttles.
Not all races and force lists will be able to use all of these rules.

MINES: Romulan Eagle ships have their NSMs. Mines are
not hidden. NSMs can be told from T-bombs, and T-bombs are
not hidden if dropped from a shuttle bay.

| 500-BPV TOURNAMENT BATTLE FORCES |
Y174 is assumed for all battle forces. If a refit is not specifi-
cally stated in the set up, the ship does not have it (examples:
the War Eagles do not have rear phasers, the Orion CA does
not have its refit, and no unit has its Y175 refit).
NOTE: All forces will “fight” at 510 points, so each team can
spend the additional points from their starting point level for
additional Com m ander’s Option items (including special
drones). These must be approved before the game begins by a
judge. You can select them after knowing your opponent.

FEDERATION: One CC+ (147), with AWR refit (+2),
two T-bombs (+8), and four type-IM drones (+2,
two sets of reloads, one of which is ADD) = .................. 159
Two NCL+ (120 each), with AWR refits (+4 each), one
T-bomb (+4 each), and four type-IM drones (+2
each, two sets of reloads, one of which is ADD) = .......260
One FFG (75), with AWR refit (+1), one T-bomb (+4),
and four type-IM drones (+2, two sets of reloads,
one of which is ADD) = ......................................................... 82
Total for force: 159+130+130+82 = .............................501 points

KLINGON: One D5C (126), with one T-bomb (+4), and 12
type-IM drones (+6, one set of reloads), ATG on four
drones (+2), and replace six ADD with type-VIM drones
(3 in each ADD rack; +.25 each for the exchange, +.25
each for speed upgrade, for a total of +3 points) = ......141
Two D5 (110 each), with two T-bombs (+8 each), eight
type-IM drones (+4 each, one set of reloads each),
six ADD replaced with type-VIM drones (as per the
D5C, +3 each) = .................................................................. 250
One F5DB (93), and 30 type-IM drones (+15, two sets
of reloads) = ......................................................................... 108
Total for force: 141+125+125+108= .......................... 499 points

ROMULAN-EAGLE: One KE (140) with one MRS (+8)
= ............................................................................................. 148
Two WE (100 each) = ................................................................200
One BH (85) = ................................................................................85
One SNA (65), with phaser refit (+3) = ..................................... 68
Total for force: 148+100+100+85+68 = .................... 501 points

ROMULAN-KESTREL: One KRL (181), with one MRS
(+8) = .................................................................................... 189
One K7B (166) = .........................................................................166
One KRB (132) = ........................................................................132
Three T-bombs distributed among the ships (+12).
Total for force: 189+166+132+12= ........................... 499 points

ROMULAN-HAWK: One NH-K (192), with one MRS
(+8)= ....................................................................................200
One FH-K (1 7 9 )= ........................................................................179
One SKA (102) = .........................................................................102
Five T-bombs distributed among the ships (+20),
Total for force: 200+170+102+20 = ........................... 501 points

KZINTI: One CC (135), and 16 type-IM drones (+8,
one set of reloads); MRS (+8) Drones for MRS
one type-IVM (+0.5), five type-IM (+2.5), six type-
VIM (+1.5) with one identical reload = ........................155.5
Two CM (110 each), with 16 type-IM drones (+8 each,
one set of reloads each) = ................................................236
One DW (84), with 16 type-IM drones (+8, one set of
reloads) = ................................................................................92
Five T-bombs distributed among the ships (+20).
Total for force: 155.5+118+118+92+16=................499.5 points

GORN: One CM (161), with MRS (+ 8 )= .................................169
Two HDD (111 each), with one T-bomb (+4 each) =115
each.........................................................................................230
One DDL (100) = .........................................................................100
Total for force: 169+115+115+100 = .........................499 points

THOLIAN: One CC (148), with one MRS (+8), and four
T-bombs (+16), and replace one admin shuttle
with Web Anchor (10 - 2 = +8) = ...................................... 180
One CA (128) with four T-bombs (+ 1 6 )= .............................. 144
Two DD (80 each), with two T-bombs (+8 each) = ............. 176
Total for force: 180+144+88+88 = ............................. 500 points

ORION: One CA (127) with two T-bombs (+8), and four
photons (+0), and eight type-IM drones (+4 with
one set of reloads), add ATG to four of the drones
(+2) = .................................................................................... 141
One BR (115), with one type-S non-swivel plasma
torpedo (+4), and one type-F non-swivel plasma
torpedo (+0), two plasma racks (+6), and two T-
bombs (+8) = ........................................................................133
One BR (115), with three hellbore (+6), and two
phaser-G (+4), and two T-bombs (+8) = ........................133
One DW (80), with one photon (+0), two type-C drone
racks (+2), eight type-IM drones (+4), and two T-
bombs (+8) = ..........................................................................94
Total for force: 141+133+133+94= ........................... 501 points

HYDRAN: One BAR (121) with four Stinger-2s (+40)
and two Stinger-Hs (+20), and four T-bombs (+16)
= ..............................................................................................197
One HR+ (95) with six Stinger-2s (+60), and fourT -
bombs (+16) = ..................................................................... 171
One TR+ (117), with fourT-bom bs (+16) = ...........................133
Totalfor force: 197+171+ 133=................................... 501 points

ANDROMEDAN: One INT (265) = .......................................... 265
One MAM (1 3 0 )= ......................................................................... 130
One COB (83) = ...............................................................................83
Six T-bombs (+24) distributed among the ships.
Total for force: 265+130+83+24 = ...............................502 points

LYRAN: CA+p (139), with one T-bomb (+4) = ......................143
Two CW+ (115 each), with power pack (+9 each), and
one T-bomb (+4 each) = ................................................... 256
One DW+ (91), with power pack (+9) = .................................. 100
Total for force= 143+128+128+100 = ......................... 499 points

WYN: One Great Black Shark (145) with type-B drone
racks in the wing mounts (+2), medium speed
drones (+12), one Lyran MRS (+ 8 ).................................. 167
Orca CW (120) with type-B drone racks (+2), medium-
speed drones (+12), two T-bombs (+8)........................... 142
Mako DD (98) with phaser-1 s (+0), medium-speed
drones (+6), convert 2 commando (1 )..............................105
Barracuda FF (80) with medium-speed drones (+ 6 )...............86
Total.................................................................................................500

ISC: One CA (185)= .................................................................. 185
One DD (92), with one T-bomb (+4) = .......................................96
Three FF (73 each) = ................................................................. 219
Total for force: 185+96+73+73+73 = .......................... 500 points

LDR: CWL (142): power pack (+9) = ........................................151
CW+ (127): power pack (+9), UIM (+5) = ................................141
DW+ (101): power pack (+9), UIM (+5) = ................................115
MP+ (77): power pack (+9), UIM (+5) = ......................................91
2 Commando BPs = .........................................................................2
Total.................................................................................................500

SELTORIAN: Two CA (142 each) = ........................................284
One CL (127) = .............................................................................127
One FF (73) = ................................................................................. 73
Four T-bombs distributed among the ships (+20).
Total for force: 284+127+73+20 = ...............................500 points

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 04:57 pm: Edit

I think these rules are a reasonable starting point/guideline, but, as noted, Geoff is interested in it being y180, at which point a lot of these forces cease to be affordable (due to F drones), and there isn't room for things like Sabot Plasma (which costs BPV as well), and ignores all the ships that were published post 1994.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Well, it does give us a choice.

1. Start with the current ships and year. Play one tournament and then adjust.
2. Spend the time to tweak the ships to more "modern" ships (if available) and increase the BPV for Commander Options.

Question on the players:
Looks like the original assumed each side would be played by multiple players. Do people want to do that or have the whole squadron run by a single player?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 06:41 pm: Edit

This sounds fun. I can make my own force or would be very happy playing in a team format.

If teams of three. I would want to set the squadron cost as to be able to buy size class 3 ships one for each team member. Then if the team wants to buy one more expensive CA and two CW they could of course.

Such as a Klingon D7C, D7 and D6D. Romulans might be a heavy hawk and 2 sparrow hawks. I would think we should rule out carriers at least for a first tourney.

As for victory points. Use S2 and total up all points earned for each battle fought. Highest total wins.

That is a start

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 06:45 pm: Edit

A few comments...

Players seem to have said they want to design their own force, but that means someone (not at the ADB office) has to check the math. If that's the direction you want, you should perhaps specify a specific year as that will define availability. You might also want to block fighters, PFs, X-ships, for the first few battles.

I would suggest that BEFORE you try a tournament you try a few test games. See how long a game will take, if it's better run by one player per side or more, and if any special rules cause such an increasing in playing time you might want to skip them. In fact, I would tell you to try ONE test battle (Feds vs Klingons) and then a second one (Feds vs Romulans) and then review the decisions on how your force should go together.

It's up to the organizers if ComOpts are inside or above the 500. For that matter, 500 is a nice round number but you could pick 550 or 600 or 433 if you wanted. But I'd say pick something most agree on and try a test battle.

While it might be good to pick one number and do all squadron tournaments to that number, I guess each event could have a different number. You might call it something non-numerical, like Squadron Leader Tournament, or something, so that your branding doesn't trip you up if you discovery you need to change baseline numbers. You could even change numbers every tournament so for example one event could be the 500th Squadron Leader Tournament and the next could be the 650th Squadron Leader Tournament.

Or, maybe the best advice I can give, is to ignore people who never played a tournament on SFBOL.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, January 19, 2025 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Thanks everyone for comments!

1. Players - three players is too much for SFBOL and scheduling, but one is too few, part of the fun of a fleet battle is coordination. Also, having two people available, so that if one cannot make a scheduled battle, at least the other Admiral can run the show.

2. Fleet selection - Yes, CL15 had some nice fleets, but dated from the 90s ... we need an update for Y180, and also to provide a little flexibility in the fleets. For example, the ISC fleet with a single PPD ... it is easy and legal under S8 to have a CS or a CC with 2xPPD ... but then the rest of the force has to balance this.

We have to respect the S8 racial restrictions ... limits on PPD, Web casters, leaders, special ships (scouts, drone-ships, maulers, etc.).

Each team needs to share their selection including all CO items to double-check the math and special rules. Each team should submit their choices ahead of time. I'll be the leader, but I also plan to play. My team will publish our fleet publicly before I look at any submitted fleets, and then once everyone submits, we will publish them all ahead of play. Maybe after we have done this a few times, we can try a more "fog of war" approach, but not yet.

3. Races - I'm with Peter, I submit that the wazoo races are out for this -- Andro, Orions, LDR, WYN (inside, but a Fish fleet is OK), Jindarians, etc. This leaves the classics, FED, KLG, ROM, ZIN, GRN, THO*, HYD, LYR, WYN-fish, ISC. *Tholians are interesting, since by Y180, I don't think they actually have any web-casters, per the General War timeline. I'm ready to consider a compromise here, if we have a strong Tholian advocate. At this size a fleet, there will be max of one web caster.

3. BPV - All of the commanders options need to be purchased as normal, as Peter said. If you want all of the T-bombs, fast drones, commandos etc. then its all got to tally within your 550. If you select a scout (see below), you are paying the EPV (higher value). I think it is reasonable to actually fight at 550, and this can include T-bombs, BPs, special drones per the racial limitations, refits or upgrades that you could not squeeze into 500, etc. But the original 500 before CO and the final 550 are strict limits.

3. EW - definitely included with all the bells and whistles (EM, small target modifiers, EW fighters, etc.). Scouts, OK, let's include scouts, I'm fine with them, but when I saw zero scouts in the CL15 fleets, I felt it might be easier to exclude them. Players should realize if they do not include a scout, and their opponent does, they might be at a serious disadvantage.

4. What do people think of attrition units (fighters, interceptors, PFs)? The original fleets from CL15 and the rules provide only Hydrans with fighters. At Y180, there is a bit of a lop-sided availability by race, so your comments are welcome. I'll post a few examples of fleets that I was considering build with attrition units in mind.

5. I think practice fleet selections in a few rounds, and then practice battles are a great idea.

Thanks again for your interest and comments!