Geoffrey I am also sending you an email.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Geoff, those rules seem pretty reasonable.

I might have some limits on Hydran fighters, just in the name of making the game a little easier to manage--some arbitrary limit on total fighters (10? 12?) and Lyran PFs (2 casual?).

A couple things of note:

>>VICTORY: Teams are expected to fight until all opposing ships are destroyed or disengage.>>

Seems like giving people the opportunity to just surrender is a good idea (i.e. "I'm clearly losing, and don't feel like I have a chance to turn this around, and I don't wanna spend the next 3 hours waiting to get all my ships blown up").

>>The total of the ships plus refits and drone speeds should not exceed 500 BPV. The players may select commanders options, and the adjusted total must not exceed 550 BPV.>>

So ships, plus all refits, plus drone speeds needs to come in under 500 BPV, but then players can spend up to 550 BPV on options, which would include (presumably) T-Bombs, MRS, Drogues, fancy drones (ATG, MW, etc.), boarding parties, etc. I assume Legendary Crew and Crew Quality are out, correct?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Gary wrote:
>>In both cases, the forces to be submitted go in "blind": only after they have been accepted and locked in do they find out the specifics as to what scenario they are to take part in, and/or which other battle group they might have been paired against.>>

These games won't involve scenarios (other than "Go shoot that opposing ship"), and presumably people will submit forces to the GM without alerting the opposing players as to what they are playing, and folks will be paired, likely, at random.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Geoffrey updated to meet keep BC and SC 4
BCF 180, Sabot refit 2, Drones Rk1 1IVF(1), 1IF(1), 1ECMXF(2) Total 4. Rk2 1IVF(1), 2IF(2) Total 3 Ship total 189(CO) 4TB 16,
GSC 142 Rk1 1IVF(1), 1IF(1), 1ECMF(2),Total 4,
Ship Total 146 MRS 8, 4TB (8) WBP 2
DDL+ 100 Sabot Refit 2 Ship total 102 2TB 8
COR 63 Rk1 1IVF(1), 1IF(1), 1ECMXF(2) 2TB 8

Fighting total 500 CO 50 Total 550

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Eddie, you don't need to post your force here; we are emailing them to the judge.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 09:13 pm: Edit

one thought here on set up.

Force A will start on map#1 within 3 hexes of 0306;

force B will start on map#4 within 3 hexes of 4024.

On SFBOL that would make a map. column 84 rows 60
can you give starting location by that? I am guessing that force A is unchanged.
Force B would be 3 hexes from 8226

At that distance still would be 2 turns before any combat. perhaps WS2 would be fine?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, January 21, 2025 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Hey Vandar,

Yes, I think map #4 hex 4024 should be 8254 on the main SFBOL map (lower SE corner).

Map #1 (NW) is unadjusted.
Map #2 (NE) adds only 42 hexes to columns.
Map #3 (SW) adds only 30 hexes to rows.
Map #4 (SE) adds both 42 hexes to columns and 30 hexes to rows.

I hope this understanding is correct.

WS-III is fine, and the distance is there to give a fleet time to get the formation they want and plan the approach towards the enemy, make adjustments based on their actions, get the cloakers down and clean from lock-ons, etc.

Peter,

Thanks for the review. Hope the leaky shields rules are not too strict or onerous.

1) Yes, if a player just gives in, its OK, the judge (me this time) will adjudicate from there. If your FF/DD is range two from Hydrans, maybe it will be considered destroyed. If you are range 24 and headed towards your disengagement zone, probably disengaged, etc.

2) Yes, I'll add some limit on Hydran fighters (maybe 12) and Lyran PFs (maybe 4 ... I think 2 is too few, relative to the Hydran fighter cloud).

3) Yes, total ships w refits and speeds <= 500 BPV (scouts are EPV!) and then ships + CO <= 550 BPV for T-bombs (or NSMs for Roms only), fancy drones, MRS (max one), drogues, Boarding Parties, etc.

Nerroth & Peter

Yes, I'll take a look at those threads, was not aware of it. Yes, players secretly email the judge their forces (or input into hidden Google Docs), and then the pairing for the tree is random, like we do in Sapphire Tournament.

I think Eddie and I are going to play a practice battle in the coming week or so, Feds vs Roms, in order to get more familiar with the SFBOL interface and try to detect anything that needs to be clarified. Hardcore suggested BCH is too powerful, but by Seahawk and Skyhawk are not afraid!

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Wednesday, January 22, 2025 - 02:50 am: Edit

Oh yes, and ...

>> I assume Legendary Crew and Crew Quality are out, correct?

Correct. Sorry but Kirk, Spock, Bones and friends are busy, as their Top Gun fighter pilots are too.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, January 22, 2025 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Peter I know, but Geoffrey wants to test one with a BC class. What I post here is for him and not necessarily what will arrive.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, January 23, 2025 - 05:56 am: Edit

Hello Ed, I sent you some email with a saved .SFB file with our map and ships setup, so we can experiment.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, January 23, 2025 - 07:39 am: Edit

Got it!

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, January 23, 2025 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Hi Guys,

I've played around with the SFBOL interface, made the map the right size, added ships (to be honest, I miss the traditional SSDs) ... I think Ed and I will get together sometime early next week for our practice battle.

So, we'll move towards submission of forces and pairing on the tree by February 1st. And subsequent rounds will be March, and April for the final round. This assumes we get 8 players/teams, 16 is too optimistic, I think. If we get 12, we can consider some teams getting a bye, but it would be better off if players decide to team up so we get 8 teams.

If you want guarantee a spot on the tree, send me an email soon!

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, January 23, 2025 - 10:46 pm: Edit

OK, I've added a few things to the rules, including limits to Hydran fighters and Lyran PFs. After building a few Hydran forces, I ended up with 14 or 16 fighters after just adding classic ships like RN, DG, LN, etc. So, I've made the limit 18. Lyran PFs are limited to 4. A few other additions to the prohibited list, like monitors.

-------------

STAR FLEET 500-BPV TOURNAMENT
The purpose of the 500-BPV tournament is to test a player’s skill with some of the more advanced rules in the game system and to allow an SFB group to demonstrate their tactics in a small squadron battle. These rules are a modification of the standard tournament rules presented in the SFB MODULE T:TOURNAMENT BOOK. The Standard Tournament rules are considered in effect except where specifically modified below. These “experimental” rules may be modified in the future.

GENERAL CONDITIONS

PLAYERS: A player may control the entire force, or a team of two or three may participate. An active SFB Online account is required, and this is the only venue available for these battles. The Star Fleet Games BBS will be the primary communication and annoucement communication path, although emails are also required and used for force selection and approval.

TIME LIMITS: Each player or team will have ten minutes each turn to make plans and complete energy allocation (EA), plus an optional five minute bio break if necessary (with proper advance communication with the opposing team). Players and teams need to mutually agree to start, and stop the turns, after all EOT actions are completed. Records of turn start and end down to the minute must be kept and submitted to the judge. For both players or teams, if EA is completed after ten minutes but within fifteen minutes, a random ship will be subject to leaky shield rules (D3.6) for every tenth point of damage scored. If EA is completed after fifteen minutes but within twenty minutes, all ship are subject to leaky shields as above. If EA is completed after twenty minutes but within thirty minutes, all ship are subject to leaky shields after every fifth point of damage. Shields will go back to normal function if EA is completed on-time in subsequent turns. If EA is not completed within thirty minutes, the judge reserves the right to impose hull or armor damage, or ultimately to take control of the ships and attempt to disengage. Each round is planned for one month. Judge may authorize weekly extensions if warranted. The concept is to complete a three-round, single elimination tournament within three months. If a battle remains unfinished after six weeks, the judge will adjudicate the match so the tournament can continue. Player and judge etiquette and fair play is required!

VICTORY: Teams are expected to fight until all opposing ships are destroyed or disengage. In the case of any unresolved games, the judge will determine the winner through the use of (S2.20) in the SFB rulebook. Players are not allowed to voluntarily surrender a ship. If a team abandons a game, a judge will control their ships and try to disengage. If the time limit runs out, judges will adjudicate the fate of each ship for point value purposes. Judges reserve the right to review and revise scores in the event of obvious collusion by one team to give the other team a superior score.

FORCE SELECTION: Players are free to select their fleet from SFB published products, within the restrictions below. Every unit must be available in Y180. Drone ships are assumed to have fast drones, and must include the cost in their BPV. Plasma ships are assumed to have the sabot refit, and must likewise pay the refit cost. The total of the ships plus refits and drone speeds should not exceed 500 BPV. The players may select commanders options, and the adjusted total must not exceed 550 BPV. Certain galactic races that operated fleets in the later General War era are available: Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Klingon, Kzinti, Gorn, Tholian (including the 312th Neo-Tholian squadron ... see notes below), Hydran, Lyran, WYN (outside cluster only, Fish series or purchased Orion hulls), Vudar or ISC. For Tholians, Web caster limits under (E12.16) are further restricted, only one Web-caster armed ship is permitted. For ISC, PPD limits under (E11.17) are further restricted, only one PPD-armed ship is permitted.

In addition, certain limits of ship selection are in place. Size class 2 ships are prohibited, and a limit of two size class 3 ships may be selected, with at least one size class 4 ship included. True carriers and escorts, PF Tenders, minelayers and sweepers, monitors, auxiliaries, police and penal ships are prohibited. No Legendary Officers, no poor or outstanding crews, no legendary ace, ace or green fighter pilots or PF/INT crews. No computer-controlled ships. Only Hydran fighters (max 18) and Lyran casual PFs (max 4) are permitted as non-ship units included in the force selection, however one MRS shuttle per fleet may be chosen as part of commanders options. A single "Limited Availability" ship may be selected; for example leaders, prototypes, Maulers, ships with Stasis Field Generators, ships with shock (Fed BCJ, Rom KHK or SPJ, etc.) ... but not conjectural ships. The judge reserves the right to reject any selection that is not in compliance with these rules.

Players must submit their forces to the judge for approval prior to play, and the judge may order changes if compliance issues exists. Players will be provided with a Google Docs Spreadsheet link with a template to enter their ship selections, which will include details like Rule Reference, Year-in-Service, BPV/EPV including refits, and speed upgrades. Players and judge will communicate in secret by email, to submit the force and have it approved by the judge. There will also be a section on commander's options, to be filled in and submitted after knowing your opponent. This will serve as the only official record of commander's options available in play, and it will be shared with your opponent prior to the start of the match. These records will eventually be made available to all players.

DRONES: You can exchange two type-I-Fs for one type-IV-F (maximum of four per ship, no transfers between ships) but do not gain any BPV by doing so. You can select special drones per the usual racial restrictions and limits.

BETWEEN ROUNDS: A team’s ships are considered fully repaired and reloaded between rounds. Destroyed ships are considered replaced. The number of rounds will be driven by the number of players. The winner will be determined by which force holds the field. Victory Points will also be computed, and used at least as a tie-breaker. Players or Teams may not change forces between rounds, but they may re-select and must gain the judge's approval for commander's options each round.

SCENARIO SET UP: Four maps will be used. Force A will start on map#1 within 3 hexes of 0306; Force &#1042; will start on map#4 within 3 hexes of 4024. All ships are at WS-III, speed max, heading at the option of the owning team (all ships from one team must start with the same heading). The map is fixed and does not float. Force A may disengage by exiting the map from the 01 xx hex row of maps #1 and #3. Force &#1042; may disengage by exiting the map from the 42xx hex row of maps #2 and#4. Any ship which disengages in any other direction is considered destroyed. No terrain will be used.

RULES USED: All rules allowed in the standard tournament are in effect, with the addition of the following rules:
Drone racks (as per the SSDs), special drones or various types, AEGIS fire control, balcony and track systems, boarding party combat, BPVs, chaff (Hydran fighters and MRS shuttles only), chain reactions, commander's options, crew units, disengagement (only by leaving the map), docking, dogfighting (Hydran fighters and all shuttles), plasma sabot, ECM plasma, Type-K plasma, plasma carronade, PFs and PF operations (Lyran only, (K2.114) CASUAL PFTs only), electronic warfare, scout functions, emergency damage repair, erratic maneuvering, launch tubes (Hydrans only), landing in the opponent’s shuttle bay, T-bombs and NSMs (per rules below), MRS shuttles and drogues. Not all races and force lists will be able to use all of these rules.

MINES: Romulan Eagle ships have their NSMs included in BPV. Mines are not hidden. NSMs can be distinguished from T-bombs, and T-bombs are not hidden if dropped from a shuttle bay.

500-BPV
Y180 is assumed for all battle forces. If a refit is not specifically stated in the set up, the ship does not have it. NOTE: All forces will “fight” at 550 points, so each team can spend the additional points from their starting point level for additional Commander’s Option items (including special drones). These must be approved before the game begins by a judge. You can select them after knowing your opponent.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, January 24, 2025 - 02:08 pm: Edit

>>You can exchange two type-I-Fs for one type-IV-F (maximum of four per ship, no transfers between ships) but do not gain any BPV by doing so. You can select special drones per the usual racial restrictions and limits. >>

For clarity, if you turn 2 type I drones into 1 type IV drone, you still are only paying for the speed upgrades on the type IV, correct?

i.e. If a given rack has 4xIF and 1xIVF, you are spending 5 points on drone speed upgrades, where if a given rack has 6xIF, you are spending 6 points on drone speed upgrades (and as such, you *are* sort of gaining BPV by taking a IVF instead of 2xIF; just making sure we aren't assuming all racks are filled with IF drones for costs *before* switching to type IV drones, correct?).

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, January 25, 2025 - 04:44 am: Edit

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the question to clarify. This is the original CL15 rule. I interpret this as you pay the drone speed upgrade as if the racks are filled with type 1's, and then aftef that you trade in two type 1's for one type 4 with the limits listed.

Maybe we should adjust that? I'm not sure. It probably makes sense to have a limit on type 4's, else all drones will be type 4's .... that has implications in the single ship tournament, but maybe with T-bombs in play, it is not such a wise strategy...

What do you think?

By Stefan Lenfest (Himosan) on Saturday, January 25, 2025 - 05:49 am: Edit

As I read the rules currently (Tournament + X/Y/Z), Tholians can't cast solid web between ships. Just wanted to clarify if that is intended (or not) as it's normally an interesting option for them in S8. Not trying to change this, too busy to participate and would take a Hydran Hellbore fleet if I did.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 25, 2025 - 08:04 am: Edit

Geoff wrote:
>>Thanks for the question to clarify. This is the original CL15 rule. I interpret this as you pay the drone speed upgrade as if the racks are filled with type 1's, and then aftef that you trade in two type 1's for one type 4 with the limits listed.>>

I think the CL15 rule had the "you don't get any BPV back for the trade" as the forces were already selected and paid for. In our instance, we are building forces and inventing costs from the ground up, so I'd just use the regular rules (i.e. 2xIF cost you 2BPV for speed upgrades where 1xIVF costs you 1BPV for speed upgrades).

Limits on type IVs in general don't seem out of the realm of reason; 4 per ship max seems perfectly reasonable.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, January 26, 2025 - 03:33 am: Edit

Peter, OK, makes sense, as usual. I'll put in a rule that says one type 4 per rack.

Stefan, Tholians and casting solid web ... I'm thinking no, we don't want to see a kind of pinwheel formed, a fortification in the middle of the map. Cast web from two casters that will dissipate as per normal tournament rules, this seems OK.

Build a Hydran HB fleet! Just for fun, I'd like to see what you come up with, even if you do not end up playing for lack of time.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 26, 2025 - 08:10 am: Edit

Heh, like, the big issue (for my money) with solid webs in this sort of situation is "my two PCs flank your BCH. I cast a web between them. Everyone rolls for breakdown!" which, unless a PC is instantly vaporized, is largely impossible to prevent.

So yeah, I'd definitely lean into "no anchored web".

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, January 26, 2025 - 08:17 pm: Edit

A couple of comments:

Web casters creating anchored web between two Tholian ships (with web systems (generator, snare, or caster))^* has nothing to do with "pinwheels". These are completely separate situations, though both do require web devices. Any cast web is always linear. It may be shortened or lengthened if the anchors move closer or further apart. But it cannot be converted to a globular web. The only way to create globular web is by ordinary "laying" of the web.

A "pinwheel" is the term for three Tholian ships (only certain types allowed) forming up stern-to-stern-to-stern and acting (for some purposes) as a single unit so long as the pinwheel stays together. Notably, the shields of all three ships combine so a pinwheel formed by Tholian destroyers (27 shield boxes on each side) would have 81 shield boxes on each side. The biggest downside of the pinwheel is that it can only move by impulse power (though the warp engines still generate power which may be used for non-movement purposes). But a pinwheel, a globular web, and anchored web between Tholian ships, created by a webcaster, are three completely different things.

If you want to forbid cast anchored web to avoid the situation Peter Bakija is describing, that's fine. But you are then ignoring a "standard" (rather than "optional" or "advanced") rule.


^*Note that a Tholian ship without any web devices (such as the PC+) cannot be an anchor for cast web. It can still be an anchor for ordinary web laying but the PC+ (or other no-web-device Tholian) cannot lay any web itself nor can it place reinforcing energy into the web.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, January 26, 2025 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Hey Thyrm,

Thanks for the explanation. Was not really conflating the pinwheel and the anchors, realize they are different things.

The purpose of this tournament is to have fleets engage based on maneuvering tactics, to be somewhat akin to General War battles. Tholians are bit different in this regard, they are part of the normal tournament, within restricted rules. The web rules are basically a form of terrain, artificial terrain that provides the Tholians with an advantage. Any attack on a Tholian web-defended position would be well-thought out and have probably very specialized units included, much like a base assault with a minefield. These fleets that we're building are not intended for this kind of assault.

We're more focused on maneuver in these battles, so the temporary terrain of un-anchored cast web is fine.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 11:56 am: Edit

For whatever it's worth, I'm not personally a fan of using pinwheels anyway, except in a few specialized situations. The monster shields are nice but the extremely limited mobility is a huge problem in many cases.

The Tholian fleet is one of the most maneuverable conventional (leaving out Andros moving ships by transporter or DisDev) fleets in Alpha, probably exceeded only by Orions. Most Archeo-Tholians also have excellent all-around shielding and some have excellent weapon arcs. What with the maneuvering, shields, and arcs, I think the Tholians are usually better off fighting a maneuvering battle anyway.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Monday, January 27, 2025 - 10:35 pm: Edit

There are a lot of non-tourney rules already (ie stasis, maulers). I'm not sure banning cast web to two anchor points is needed. Yes it would suck to be caught and roll for breakdown, but I don't think it's necessarily that easy.

A single PC pops with about 65 points of damage. Which at range 3 isn't an impossible number for some heavy CA's or BC's to generate on their own, let alone a 500 pt fleet. The races that can't generate that alpha probably make the PCs turn off because they can't deal with 6+ fast drones or 50 pts of plasma. I could just as easily see the situation go bad for a tholian fleet commander trying to "catch" a tiger with some PCs.

I mean, if you see it's going to happen and you've lost the chance to avoid it, EmDec first so you don't roll for breakdown, cripple a PC that's come within 5 hexes to even threaten it and then pop a weasel for extra ECM. You've still probably got 300 points of other ships flying around in nearby formation which may decide to reach out and cripple the other PC.

The tholians can try their trick that's part of the rules and it may or may not work out for them. I say allow it.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, January 28, 2025 - 01:19 am: Edit

Playtest it

By Stefan Lenfest (Himosan) on Tuesday, January 28, 2025 - 07:52 am: Edit

Didn't mean to open a can of worms. Geoffery's running this tourney and made his ruling here and hopefully it's a success, people will have their feedback on it and the format, and maybe some of the rules that missed the cut this time but which a lot of people want will find their way into the next one.

Not trying to limit discussion, I think it's useful to see if there's a consensus on some of these borderline rules and how strongly people want them or don't (don't ask me what I think about ECM Drones). I think there's solid arguments for and against allowing Solid Cast Web but it doesn't seem like a huge deal here given that you can't really build a fleet around using it with no DNs to target (or degenerate overgunned freighter hulls). How many matchups is it even relevant in? Some Feds? Maybe some Tholians, but who is running a CA hull over a CWH/CHP in Y180 when you only get one more SC3 ship after the Neo? Otherwise, to use the breakdown threat (there are other uses sure but this is the spectacular one) you'd need them to HET or crash into your first web and then do all the other machinations to land the cast web, hope they walk into it by stacking their ships, and then they'd still have to fail rolls they make 2/3 of the time.

I do think Dana raises a good point with the comparison to SFGs which are also super hard to set up for a potentially bananas payoff. You might take his argument the other way though, that we should get rid of SFGs since they aren't the core fleet maneuver thing. But personally I think SFGs would be fun to try and build a fleet around and more fun to try and land them even though it's a longshot; or even just watch someone else try it. So I'd rather see things like that stay, they're irrelevant to 98% of games and super memorable for the other 2%.