tonight 7pm pst round 1 Fed VS Rom, classic matchup.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Saturday, February 15, 2025 - 11:22 am: Edit

Greg and I played 2 turns last night, in 1.5 hours. After playing with the starting distance as is I think it is a good distance for a few reasons, also the map size is ideal.

Speed of play was not an issue nor was the fact that turn 1 there would be only closing the range. My opponent went speed 12 all of turn 1 and we still were engaging on T2.

I liked that I could take one turn to get my squad moving, do some transporter work, and see what my opponent was doing as we approached.

It seems to work perfectly well as is, the starting range and the size of the map. Again, we played 2 turns in 1.5 hours and were engaging each other end of t2. My closest ship is range 16 to his and could have been closer, my opponent went 12 all turn 1 and 2.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, February 16, 2025 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Geoffrey,
Given that Justin's game has started (therefore I assume that you signed off on his COs). Can we get the ships for the individual fleets?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 12:21 am: Edit

Hello Paul, Players, Spectators,

Yes, now that everyone has submitted a valid fleet and had their BPV validated, these are the fleets for all players in this tournament.

Callsign	Race	Ship#	ShipType	ShipRef	BPV	Refits	Speed
Andromedan	SEL	1	CA	R15.4	142	0	0
Andromedan	SEL	2	CA	R15.4	142	0	0
Andromedan	SEL	3	DD	R15.6	95	0	0
Andromedan	SEL	4	DD	R15.6	95	0	0
Princeton	LYR	1	BC+pB	R11.3	165	20	0
Princeton	LYR	2	HCWBUm	R11.59	141	0	0
Princeton	LYR	3	DWS+	R11.41	98	2	0
Princeton	LYR	4	BOB-A	R11.PF1	37	0	0
Princeton	LYR	5	BOB-A	R11.PF1	37	0	0
Madman	KLI	1	C7	R3.72	180	0	20
Madman	KLI	2	D6D	R3.32	113	4	30
Madman	KLI	3	E4	R3.7	55	7	6
Madman	KLI	4	E4	R3.7	55	7	6
Vandar	ROM	1	KE	R4.39	140	0	6
Vandar	ROM	2	KE	R4.39	140	0	6
Vandar	ROM	3	BHB	R4.934	100	0	3
Vandar	ROM	4	BH	R4.46	85	3	2
librarian101	FED	1	CLC	R2.37	143	0	5
librarian101	FED	2	CS	R2.82	125	16	5
librarian101	FED	3	DW	R2.65	97	0	3
librarian101	FED	4	DWS	R2.66	101	0	3
Bakija	GRN	1	CCH	R6.51	171	0	6
Bakija	GRN	2	HDD+	R6.12	111	6	4
Bakija	GRN	3	BDD+	R6.17	96	2	4
Bakija	GRN	4	BDS+	R6.45	95	2	0
orgyockbo	FED	1	DD+	R2.6	94	6	0
orgyockbo	FED	2	DD+	R2.6	94	6	0
orgyockbo	FED	3	DD+	R2.6	94	6	0
orgyockbo	FED	4	DD+	R2.6	94	6	0
orgyockbo	FED	5	DD+	R2.6	94	6	0
MetalDog	FED	1	BCF	R2.34	180	0	10
MetalDog	FED	2	NCL+a	R2.18	116	8	4
MetalDog	FED	3	DDL+	R2.27	94	6	2
MetalDog	FED	4	FFS+	R2.44	71	4	4

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 07:49 am: Edit

5xDD+.

That is certainly a horror show.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 08:25 am: Edit

Is that 20 proximity photons at Range 30 for a potential 80 damage (if all hit)?

What is scary for me is the 2xR sabot torps for those 2xKE!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 08:32 am: Edit

I mean, on the upside, the DD+ team has a lot of EW issues (i.e. not much power, no potential for ECM drones) and aren't real fast, especially when reloading. But still. Eeek.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 11:23 am: Edit

Yes, what kind of SC4 unit has the firepower of a CA ?! I do remember a FED fleet of a CV group with fighters to protect a bunch of DDs which could prox at range 30. Maybe there was a FED Scout to help w EW, but for some reason the Klingon adversary fleet had a pretty tough time with that strategy. Even with DERFACS, the disrupters were not great out in those extended range brackets. With only DDs, and on a fixed map, and without EW support, I wonder if a proximity strategy would work? Anyway, it was a creative fleet build for this tournament.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Here is a likely relevant question:

(FP11.315) "If a sabot plasma is launched on Impulse #3, #7, #11 (etc), it moves only one hex, not two."

What does this mean?

Does it mean that if it is launched the impulse before a double move impulse, it doesn't get the double move that impulse? Or does it mean something else?

In the original rules set (R6?), that line referenced Impulses #4, #8, #12 (etc), and it was changed in the MRB. The original rules seemed to be indicating that the Sabot plasma wouldn't move a free move the impulse it was launched.

Not making a claim either way, just trying to figure out what this rule is supposed to be indicating.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Game 1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI).

I got CCH, HD, BD, BDS in the upper West corner, facing C. He has C7, D6D, 2E4 in the lower east corner, facing F.

T1: we are, like, 80+ hexes apart. GRN move 17/24 for 21 hexes. KLI move 27 or 30 (E4s). GRN go forward, slipping south as often as possible. KLI just go forward. Impulse 32, we are about 38 hexes apart. C7 fires 4x std disruptors at the CCH, no EW of note. 2 disruptors hit for 2 damage and bounce off reinforcement.

T2: GRN move 17/24 (19 moves) or 17 all turn (BDS). KLI see the E4s move 30 all turn, C7 is 21/27 late, D6D is 12/24 late. Early on, they launch ECM plasmas from the shuttle bay of the warships and launch a pseudo F as an ECP for the BDS. GRN keep slipping South. D6D launches a seeking weapons drogue. Klingons turn North and slip away. E4s eventually turn toward the GRN and start erratic maneuvering late when they get inside R10 from the GRN. Klingons launch a million drones, spread all over the place. GRN turn direction B and speed up to 24. Late in the turn, the D6D loans the C7 a bunch of ECCM, which is about R15 from the HD, and it fires 4xstd, 6xP1, scoring 15 damage to HD #2 (all sticks) through no ECM shift (HD at 5 from ECP and loaned ECM). GRNs get close to some drones and start shooting them down. Impulse 32, GRN launch 3 enveloped sabot torps (S, S, G) in different directions--the G torp pointing towards the E4s, the two S torps pointing towards the C7 and the D6D. The GRN manage to kill 5 close drones, leaving one wounded.

End of turn, the E4s (facing F) are 9 hexes North of the GRN (facing B; BDS is a few hexes in another direction), C7 is 12 hexes SE (facing A), D6D is 20 hexes directly East (facing A). There are 13 drones on the map, most of them 4 hexes or further.

Will continue at some point. It took us about 3 hours to play 2 turns, including setup.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 05:51 pm: Edit

My electronic copy of the MRB still refers to the "double move' being in Impulses #4, #8, etc., under (FP11.31).

My reading of (FP11.315), such as it is, would be to merely clarify that, if a torpedo is launched on an Impulse other than one of those "multiples of 4" Impulses referred to above, it moves only one hex in the launch Impulse; it must them wait until the next "multiple of 4" Impulse after launch - whichever that might be - before it gets its first "double move".

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To follow up on my prior comparisons with the Captain's Log "Battle Group" articles:

It might be worth considering the formatting often used for said Battle Groups, as they have been posted over in that portion of the BBS. This might make things clear as to which ship has which refits and which Commander's Option items, as well as to make it easier for others to "check one's homework" along the way.

Actually, a thought for the next tournament: what if, prior to the draw being made, each squadron were to be posted to the BBS for review, and the draw only made after each force is "locked in"?

Although, I'm not sure if that would be less feasible if players were free to change their squadrons in each round of the tournament, as opposed to being "set" to a given force for the duration.

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Also, one thing the Battle Group articles do is to allow only one force per empire in most cases, though there are a few exceptions. (For example: the Captain's Log #55 Battle Group round allowed two Tholian forces: a "Holdfast" force and a "home galaxy" force.)

The trick is, that one can typically only call "dibs" if one posts a valid Battle Group; an invalid force (as in, one not following the various rules outlined for that round of submissions) posted to that BBS thread does not count.

In any case, while the forces to be used in this tournament are already set, I might wonder if it could be an option to consider some sort of limit on the number of forces from a given empire next time around - or, indeed, if there ought to be any exceptions to this along the way.

Say, if the Romulans were allowed to have up to three squadrons per tournament going forward - but only if each squadron was to be obliged to choose all of its ships from only one series at a time? (As in, one Eagle squadron, one Kestrel squadron, and/or one Hawk squadron - but no more than one of each per tournament, perhaps?)

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 05:55 pm: Edit

The sabot the imp after launch will only move one hex not two. Even if it could.

The biggest controversy was over the timing of the extra
movement. The problem was that anything other than a fixed impulse
schedule (all Speed-40 torpedoes moving on Impulse #4, #8, etc.)
was too hard to keep track of and write rules for, but players adopted
the tactic of timing their approach to be in firing position on those
impulses, getting a “snap shot” at Range 2. The solution (so obvious
we didn’t find it until very late in the design process) was to simply
declare that the torpedo didn’t move twice on the impulse of launch.

from the Rule book.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 06:28 pm: Edit

>>was to simply declare that the torpedo didn’t move twice on the impulse of launch.>>

Plasmas don't ever move at all on the impulse of launch.

Which is why the rule as written doesn't make any sense. The rule doesn't say "When launched on Impulse #3 (or whatever), it doesn't move 2 hexes the *next* impulse." It just says "If launched on X, it moves one hex, not two." Plasmas don't move the impulse they are launched. They move the impulse *after* they are launched.

I mean, again, that might very well be what the rule is trying to do. But it isn't remotely what the rule says, and the rules are written differently in two different books (the book it was originally published in, and the MRB).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 06:45 pm: Edit

It may be to read. The Imp after launch.

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 07:39 pm: Edit

In think the intension is Plasma only move 1 hex the impulse after launch even if it is scheduled to move 2 due to the sabot. It certainly could have been written more clearly but have never seem someone interpret it differently than that. This section in a sub-part of FP11.31 (the section talking about the impulse it moves 2). It is meant to be read in the context of the whole. Again, it could have been clearer.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 07:55 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

It might be worth considering the formatting often used for said Battle Groups, as they have been posted over in that portion of the BBS. This might make things clear as to which ship has which refits and which Commander's Option items, as well as to make it easier for others to "check one's homework" along the way.

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By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 17, 2025 - 08:23 pm: Edit

>>In think the intension is Plasma only move 1 hex the impulse after launch even if it is scheduled to move 2 due to the sabot.>>

I think you are correct here, but *man* that is a poorly articulated rule.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 03:19 am: Edit

Anyone finding Sabots useful?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 07:20 am: Edit

Maybe? Probably not? Like, I have just launched some sabot torps at opposing ships that are all far enough away (or fast enough) that the plasma will certainly chase them off for a while, but won't hit (unless my opponent intentionally runs into them), as they have effectively infinite room to run from them. On the upside, this gives me the room to deal with the quadrillion drones on the map, but other than that, the end result will be both of us coming back around and doing it again in a few turns.

Unless I can manage to close on the opposition, through 20+ fast drones, I'm not getting a viable launch position such that plasma, sabot or no, that will have any realistic chance of hitting anything.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 01:05 pm: Edit

While there are a few individual quirks seen in the means by which various Battle Group forces are posted here, these tend to be standardized into a common format by the time they are committed to print (and, later, to PDF) in a given issue of Captain's Log.

However, one key difference is that the Battle Groups do not "split" the BPV allowances for ships from those for Commander's Options. As in, an entrant is typically permitted to use up as close to the 550 BPV limit on ships as they wish - subject to the various restrictions and limitations imposed otherwise for that round of submissions - and can then try to make up the point difference with Commander's Option items if they so wish.

Here, however, the current tournament setup "splits" the BPV allowances, in that no more than 500 points can be spent on the actual ships, with the rest to be made up on Commander's Option items. So, the "default" template often used for the Battle Groups of late might need to be adjusted slightly, so as to account for this.

So, here is an entirely unofficial sample of what could be possible, formatting-wise:

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“Mapsheet P” Paravian Sample Squadron
Gary Carney, HMCS Ontario

BCH Superstorm (180): +4 transporter bombs (+16); two extra commando squads (+2) = 198.
CW Flight Path (116): +4 transporter bombs (+16); two extra commando squads (+2) = 134.
DW Rain Summoner (99): +2 transporter bombs (+8); two extra commando squads (+2) = 109.
DW Rain Catcher (99): +2 transporter bombs (+8); two extra commando squads (+2) = 109.

Ships sub-total = 494.
Commander’s Options sub-total = 56.

Total = 550 points.

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The above mostly follows the Battle Group format - minus the "background" paragraphs that often get added, in order to offer a degree of historical flavour to the force being submitted for Captain's Log - though it offers separate "Ships" and "Commander's Options" sub-totals.

Of course, while recent issues of Captain's Log have allowed the "lost empire" Paravians from Module C6 to have Battle Groups submitted for them, they are not on the list of empires permitted here. I leave the question of whether or not to include them in future tournaments for wiser minds to consider later on.

For now, I merely use them in the above sample as a means of testing the proposed format by which an entrant's "homework" can be checked, in a more or less equivalent manner to how things have been done with the various Battle Groups to date.

Does this do enough to account for the "split" BPV allowances, or might a different approach work better here?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 07:01 pm: Edit

I would love to have the Paravians in the battles. I have been putzing with them and played some battles with them.

As for sabot plasma. The first is the power to charge them. They cannot start the battle charged even at WS-3. Holding cost does not change after they are loaded.

This is my first time using them in a battle. I have played around a bit with them. So, I am interested in the results.

I may have launched a bit early. He turned almost immediately after I launched. The good thing is he must either run away are hope they are fakes and come back after. I am still hoping the Rs will catch him for about 20 to 25 each left.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 09:30 pm: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI).

Start of turn, the E4s (facing F) are 9 hexes North of the GRN (facing B; BDS is a few hexes in another direction), C7 is 12 hexes SE (facing A), D6D is 20 hexes directly East (facing A). There are 13 drones on the map, most of them 4 hexes or further.

T3: GRN move 30/17 split, except for BDS, which is 21 all turn. KLI see C7 move something like 27/20, D6D move some sort of 24/28, and E4s move 24/25/26. GRN turn North early and pursue the E4s that are moving off. Due to the GRN being fast and the E4s not being fast enough, the GRN get R8 on the E4s, neutralize ECM with scout support, and fire 14xP1s with no shift at one of the E4s, roll ok, do 19 in, and then another point from a chain reaction (which we are apparently using?!?) when the SP blows up. The E4 loses 4 or 5 power, its shuttle, some guns. The GRN turn off and run from drones. Meanwhile, the C7 and D6D are running from sabot envelopers, while a third sabot enveloper closes on the E4s.

As the GRN run off towards the West wall, they slow down and drones start catching up. Over the course of the turn, the GRN kill 2 drones with a scout channel, 5 drones with a T-bomb, and 3 or 4 drones with phasers. They do get to be surprised by a couple 1 space swordfish drones that get to R1 before they are IDed, and they shoot a couple P3s at the CCH through an ECM shift, do 5 damage, but that is blocked by reinforcement. Meanwhile, the enveloped sabot G catches up to the E4s ('cause they turned in), and hits one of the E4s (not the one I shot, 'cause either clever or forgot to pay attention...) for a dozen damage spread around; the sabot enveloped S almost hits the C7 for 20 damage, but it gets vaporized by 7xP1 instead, and the other sabot enveloped S hits the D6D for 2 damage, which is absorbed by reinforcement.

At the end of the turn, the C7 fires 4 std disruptors at R33, but miss, and they Klingons launch 8 more drones.

We end the turn with the GRN about 15 hexes from the West wall, 40+ hexes from the South wall, facing E. The E4s are about 15 hexes behind to the NE, the D6D is 25 hexes to the NE, and the C7 is 33 hexes due East.

Will continue at some point in the near future. It took us 2:15 to play this turn. Just keeping track of how long everything takes--both Dana and I are pretty fast, and nothing this turn was particularly complicated or slow and neither of us were particularly thinky.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Tuesday, February 18, 2025 - 11:37 pm: Edit

yeah, like there were 8 ships all moving reasonably fast (so moving almost every impulse). Then 20+ seeking weapons counting drones and plasma to move each impulse. And I was trying to move the drones legally but to keep what space I could between them so they didn't all die from a single t-bomb. Also had to stop and count hexes a couple times to make sure I timed my turns right to run out the plasma.

I'm hoping next turn can go a little quicker with fewer things to do.

My first thought was the E4's should have moved 30 for the first half (and got back closer to the D6) and slowed down the second half. Would have saved me a near crippled E4. I got cute plotting a 26/25/26 plot to keep a turn mode of 4 and move 27 hexes which didn't help and got me caught.

Oh, and on the sabots. I had to run an extra 5 to 6 hexes to run out a sabot. Their extra speed doesn't count as warhead loss so in 20 impulses they move 25 hexes. So I guess if I hadn't run that far when I turned and fired 4 standard disr at the end of the turn I would have been in range 30 and got a hit. Plus be closer for the chase this turn.

Peter almost had a real turn though, I thought seriously about not running with the C7, using the decoy drogue and a 24/12/24 plot to shed the env S-torp and keep pushing the issue. I may have ended up inside range 8 doing that, or he would have been headed into the top corner to stay out of range.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 01:37 am: Edit

5 DD+ its not the proxs that will kill you, but the 30 P1

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 07:34 am: Edit

>>My first thought was the E4's should have moved 30 for the first half (and got back closer to the D6) and slowed down the second half. Would have saved me a near crippled E4. I got cute plotting a 26/25/26 plot to keep a turn mode of 4 and move 27 hexes which didn't help and got me caught.>>

Yeah, I was surprised you didn't just move 30 with the E4s.

>>Oh, and on the sabots. I had to run an extra 5 to 6 hexes to run out a sabot. Their extra speed doesn't count as warhead loss so in 20 impulses they move 25 hexes.>>

Indeed. Like, sabot is certainly better than not sabot in all ways, but I suspect that, in the grand scheme, the main effect of plasma in the context we are in is making people run away longer, rather than hitting things faster.