| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit |
"Would the police forces take most/all of the X2 frigates for police work?"
Yes and no. The 'Police' would be for internal use. The Fleet Frigate would work in a similar role but in the neutral zones. Think FBI/CIA. The reason Frigates exist is because having a small ship in theater is better than having a medium ship out of theater. You can simply build more Frigates.
“One of the lessons of the General War is that frigates are death traps”
In SFB, yes. In F&E they pumped out as many as they could. Obviously they served some purpose.
“What admiral woudn't order the commissioning of a new high-tech DN?"
Pick whichever reason you like:
1) Technology: They could have been simply incapable of building an X2 ship of that size.
2) Cost: The R&D would rival the cost of the B10 program.
3) Economy: The economy is in shambles and can’t support the massive investment required.
4) Size: There is still the possibility that an XDN is of a similar size to a B10 following the larger size concept presented in the movies and next gen. Shipyards with this capability may not exist.
5) Treaty: Ships of this tonnage could be excluded from new construction but existing ships, like the B10, get grand fathered in.
6) Need: With the end of hostilities there is little need for an XDN, particularly if you don’t want to start an expensive arms race with your neighbor. All that changes once the Xorks come of course.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:37 am: Edit |
Police would have some Frigates but the majority of the "Patrol Cruisers" would be something smaller. Something big enough the keep a couple freighters in line or force a Free Trader to stop and submit to inspection. And big enough to make pirates have to expend effort to oppose it. The old POL did that well but a new unit will be needed.
Side note: A miniature version of the old CL would be cool. That thing looks kinda like a '50's Police car. Geeze, I think I'll have to paint one up like that. Hee, hee.
| By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 03:05 am: Edit |
Just to play devil's advocate, an XDN would be built because:
Quote:1) Technology: They could have been simply incapable of building an X2 ship of that size.
Quote:2) Cost: The R&D would rival the cost of the B10 program.
Quote:3) Economy: The economy is in shambles and can’t support the massive investment required.
Quote:4) Size: There is still the possibility that an XDN is of a similar size to a B10 following the larger size concept presented in the movies and next gen. Shipyards with this capability may not exist.
Quote:5) Treaty: Ships of this tonnage could be excluded from new construction but existing ships, like the B10, get grand fathered in.
Quote:6) Need: With the end of hostilities there is little need for an XDN, particularly if you don’t want to start an expensive arms race with your neighbor. All that changes once the Xorks come of course.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:04 am: Edit |
Both directions are viable. I am not opposed to an XDN but I am firmly in favor of it being post Xork production.
7) Playbalance: With the amount of trouble we are having making a viable XCA play nice with X0 I can't imagine how we could make an XDN work. Extrapolating current designs the BPV could be in the 700-800 range. Ugh.
8) History: I think we can assume that no DN(X1) ever existed prior to Y205 (we would have heard about it) and certainly no one would have built an DN(X1) after X2 tech was out. It could be argued for the last 25 years the fleet flag ship was a CC(X1), not a DN. The DN was bigger, not better.
9) B10: The B10 is slow, expensive and obsolete. X1 and X2 ships can fly circles around it. The Klingons would keep it for national pride reasons and would never submit to it being voluntarily scrapped. The Treaty could be written to compensate the other races that don't have a B10/SSCS by allowing them one additional SCS.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:45 pm: Edit |
Could work if you take the XDN in a different direction, focusing more on command and control abilities than raw firepower. Figure it has modestly more than the XCC, but has more hull, control spaces, etc. Sort of like the vanilla Fed DN and how it compares to the CC. Maybe a new kind of system, to make it worth having, like a CIC or some such. I agree, though, that just having a mega-DN with tons of weapons isn't going to play nice with other ships.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit |
Thyen Fed DN got quickly overtaken by combat oriented DNs. They would not make the same mistake again with X2.
| By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit |
John: Have you seen the Early dreadnaughts of the other races in R7. They show that the Fed DN was no less powerful that it's counterparts. It's just that when the new technology for upgrading the firepower of the dreadnaughts became available the feds didn't immediately take full advantage of it (producing the DN+, when the could probably have emmediately produced the DNG). If a Command and control X2 DN appears, then the technology to make it more powerful would probably not appear, and so the only problem would be that of the Early dreadnaughts, in that they were a waste of money, and people could probably do better with a command cruiser and a destroyer.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:32 pm: Edit |
That a decent rationalization for making a weak XDN.
The problem is that it doesn't fly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in EY/MY units with a CR of 10 were rare.
They aren't these days. There are plenty of SC3 units capable of commanding a fleet.
The reason you build a XDN is *for* the firepower.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 02:34 pm: Edit |
Indeed. The only reason an XDN would be built is to have the firepower platform, not for the command rating.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:13 pm: Edit |
I like Mikes approach but give them, instead of more torps, a good phaser battery with lots of focus on defense. Perhaps the XDN would be the fleets EW platform or ties in with specialized EW XDDs. The XDDE would become a fleet support unit instead of a Carrier escort.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit |
Loren,
When you say, "Perhaps the XDN would be the fleets EW platform" are you suggesting putting special sensors onto the XDN?
Let's not go there. If you like we can make a XDN's Flag Bridge a "repeater station" for EW lent to a third unit by scouts (might be a nifty ability for Flag Bridges in general), but let's not make the XDN itself the actual scout, please.
The problem with an emphasis on phasers is that racial flavor and individual tactics will tend to diminish across the class as the combined power of the phasers grow. Remember X1.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:19 pm: Edit |
"Let's not go there. If you like we can make a XDN's Flag Bridge a "repeater station" for EW lent to a third unit by scouts (might be a nifty ability for Flag Bridges in general), but let's not make the XDN itself the actual scout, please."
I hadn't thought it out but I agree with this. Actually, I would rather NOT see an XDN at all. I want the XCC to take over that roll. Remove the DN compleatly and remove the FF from front line battle.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit |
I agree. X1 was supposed to reinstitute the "age of the cruiser". I'd prefer X2 continue that.
Unless we get as far as a X2R module, then maybe.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit |
Well, I don't really see there being a need to have more than an X2R module actually. That module could include the type of fighter/carrier thing I'm proposing.
Of course, that would depend on what happens with the Xorks. In any case it is worth it, I believe, to explore the possibilities. I got inspired by a History Channel show about the P-38 so I put down what I thought up.
The X-Admin above that post was a proposal I would like to see implemented in X2. If there is to be fighters for the X2 era then I would like something like the XP-38 but I can live with no fighters for X2 era though I would like to see it explored.
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit |
This was asked in the plasma thread and I thought I'd answer it here:
"I don't understand this concern over the X2 vs. GW match-up."
The reason is the hypothetical history calls for a period of 'trade-wars' with large neutral zones filled with independently governed planets. The races will divest their war surplus X0/XP tech onto these independent planets within their sphere of control, think US/USSR cold war. The galactic struggle continues except the major races have learned not to overtly attack one another. Now the powerful fight proxy wars in the neutral zones against the enemy sphere of influence allies. In this scenario it is more likely that X2 will face an X0 opponent than an X2 opponent, and they have to play nice.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 04:35 pm: Edit |
That and SVC has stated that he doesn't care what X2 looks like but equal-BPV of GW and X2 have to have a 50-50 chance of either side winning.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 08:18 am: Edit |
A handfull of ideas concerning refits.
Federation because the Fed have a strong ecconomy they can reall afford to have fewer refits.
Their CLs might have 3Photons and refit it to Four, and their DDs might have two, refitting to three and further refitting to 4 but the FF will likely have two and alsways have 2 and the CA/CC will likely have 4 and always have four.
This still leaves room for a few refits.
1} Upgrading the Phaser from the 8Ph-5s to 12Ph-5 (basically the CC Phaser suite in Ph-5s to the CX Phaser suite in Ph-5s, although I'm noth sure if the CC has LF+L or LS Phasers, so I'm not sure it that's a perfectly accurate expression ).
2) BTTY moving from X1 3 pointers to X2 5 pointers ( or what ever playtesting finally proves is the correct X2 BTTY ).
3) Possibly a shield refit to have some refitting room.
4) The usual Drone Upgrades.
Klingon.
The Klingon cruiser should have plenty of room for refitting with a chreap price tag for the trade wars and a capable warship for the Xork invasion.
1) The Klingons should therefore start with four Disruptor and refit to 6.
2) The Klingons should have an arry of 12 Ph-1 ( just like the DX but with an extra Boom Phaser ( just like the C7) and then have a refit to the boom Phaser being Ph-5s and then refit again to make all Phaser Ph-5s.
3) The Drone rack should probably be 1X2E-rack and 2X2A-racks (6 spaces) that get latter refitted to 1X2E-rack and 2X2B-racks (8 spaces).
4) A refit of the BTTYs from 3 point X1s to 5 Point X2s.
5) The usual Drone upgrades.
Gorn.
1) The Gorns should start with 2X2M launchers and then refit to 2X2M launchers and 2X2L launchers and then latter improve still to 2X2M launchers and 2X2S launchers.
2) The Gorns should also have 8Ph-5s and then refit to 12Ph-5s.
3) The Gorns should get the BTTY refit like everyone else.
4) The Gorns might need a shield refit or maybe increase the X2Ms to X2Rs of X2X or X2Z or maybe a 13th or even 14th Ph-5 depending on what Playtest gives us.
Anyway these are just a few musings.
| By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 08:07 pm: Edit |
Loren, I disagree with removing the FF from X2. I'd recommend making the X2-FF a little smaller than the GW-FF and packing it with power for speed, maneuverability, and defenses. They'd be designed specifically for combat vice multi-role. They'd have mostly phasers with few heavies (if any). The X2-FF would be a "fighter-starship." They'd operate in groups, either independently ("FRIGRON") for patrol, as convoy escorts, or as light raiding forces in Battle Groups. Variants are designed to complement each other in composite-style warfare.
My basic X2 paradigm:
SC2 CV in limited numbers operating to provide "presence" in hotspots and form Battle Groups during wartime
SC3 CC for multiple roles (with limited variants), first choice for long-range workhorse and peacetime/crisis C2 and "presence"
SC4 DD for limited multiple roles, primarily Battle Group operations, homeland workhorse, and crisis response
SC4 FF as above
SC5 PF for various short-range combat and security roles
and so forth
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 09:34 pm: Edit |
RBN: I never intended to remove the FF from X2; I only meant that there would be not direct combat type of FF. They would just die too quickly. Instead, I have come up with a variant only class. Actually, there is two "Classes" of FF in my presentation. There is a military support class that is more of an escort for larger ships and a armed logistics support type (not intended for battle but able to defend against light pirate attack). The military support type would also serve as a caravan escort in safer areas. Both versions are able to haul a special cargo container for making specialized fast supply and logistics.
Since there is so little X2 presence for a time these little vertebra of the backbone supply XCCs and XCMs in the field rather than requiring them to return to port as often, thus maintaining a strong X2 presence in the devastated and lawless zones better and longer. They also carry goods from these zones. Sometimes carrying vital recovery supplies to devastated colonies.
When I am finnished with my current set of contracts I'm going to create a web site. I plan to put my whole proposal there at that time. Mean while I'm still working on it.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 04:12 am: Edit |
Quote:I never intended to remove the FF from X2; I only meant that there would be not direct combat type of FF. They would just die too quickly.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit |
Actually, according to X1 lore, Loren is right.
FFX's died fast. The powers might consider limiting the uses that they put FF's to.
| By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 07:41 pm: Edit |
I agree that X2-Frigates in general won't be stand-up combatants. That's why I'm saying X2-FFs would be designed as composite forces operating in Frigate Squadrons (FRIGRON). The variants would be designed to compensate for each other. For example, the basic element would be two Frigates, one the AEGIS/phaser ship and the other the EW/drone ship. A typical FRIGRON would have four Frigates. I see where you're going now Loren and I think that's similar to what I'm thinking. Other variants would be the fast transport (FFT) Loren mentions, another could be a Mine Warfare Frigate (FFM), etc. I think X2 could actually bring new life to Frigates.
| By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 08:24 pm: Edit |
The problem with that is that you invest in ships that make for weak X-fleets if you don't have enough larger ships (because you built all these FFs) to make a complete fleet with. There's nothing that says a triad of frigates costs less command points than any other 3 ships.
| By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 08:35 pm: Edit |
True but less-expensive is LESS expensive. There's always a niche for these critters, otherwise why not use a CVN for mine countermeasures these days, or a DDG? They'd work really well in the homeland areas and in concert with bases and PFs. As for battle groups, they make good light raiders (think LAV-25).
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 11:22 pm: Edit |
Quote:Actually, according to X1 lore, Loren is right.
FFX's died fast. The powers might consider limiting the uses that they put FF's to.
Quote:I agree that X2-Frigates in general won't be stand-up combatants. That's why I'm saying X2-FFs would be designed as composite forces operating in Frigate Squadrons (FRIGRON). The variants would be designed to compensate for each other. For example, the basic element would be two Frigates, one the AEGIS/phaser ship and the other the EW/drone ship. A typical FRIGRON would have four Frigates.
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