Thanks for the info on the games played, and the time to play the turns and complete EAF!

---

Quote:

... then another point from a chain reaction (which we are apparently using?!?) when the SP blows up.

---

---

Quote:

However, one key difference is that the Battle Groups do not "split" the BPV allowances for ships from those for Commander's Options. ... I merely use them in the above sample as a means of testing the proposed format by which an entrant's "homework" can be checked, in a more or less equivalent manner to how things have been done with the various Battle Groups to date. ... Does this do enough to account for the "split" BPV allowances, or might a different approach work better here?

---

---

Quote:

What will be revealed in detail are the force (units, refits, speed upgrades), and the exact shuttles & drogues by ship. What will be revealed in aggregate are the fleet BPV totals for boarding parties, T-bombs/NSMs, and special drones. Once the game is completed, the granular details of all CO will be made available, and the EAF on SFBOL will be revealed, so that verification of play can be completed. These records will eventually be made available to all players.

---

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 10:12 am: Edit

Paying for the Sabot upgrade is costly, but one pays it once. To charge a plasma as a sabot has costs, but it has a tactical advantage over normal plasmas.

A long time ago, while playing with the "group", it was Klingons vs ISC year 180. One member typically sets up the scenario and runs the impulse chart. He does not reveal what both sides have.

So, my opponent looks stunned when my ISC practically stopped on the map instead of closing. Sabot upgrades and arming plasma takes a lot of power. I was learning the rules at the time.

Anyway, the game continued per normal. The Klingon was closing to range 8 for overloaded disrupters while launching drones. The ISC fired PPDs at range 10 per normal at the lead Klingon.

The damage from 3xPPD armed ships becomes substantial over time. I was very careful to launch my S torps the impulse after the sabot was scheduled to move. To my opponent it looked normal. The look on his face when they moved twice was "priceless"!

His overloads fired as planned. My PPDs were doing a lot of shield damage, and the sabot S torps were closing. All of us paid a lot more attention to the year of the scenario from then on.

And yes, my sabots S torps hit this time!!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 10:33 am: Edit

Heh, I mean, yeah, sure, if your opponent doesn't know what sabot plasmas do, and and close in to take overload shots, speed 40 plasma is likely to hit. When playing the DW Squadron tournament we had on SFBOL a number of years back (which was probably 10 at this point), my sabot plasmas hit things (Gorn BDs), but that wasn't 'cause the map was small (it wasn't--it was two full maps), but 'cause my opponents weren't particularly fast and didn't have a significant number of seeking weapons of their own (IIRC, I fought a Fed DD squadron of, like, a DDL, DDF, and DD+ and then a Hydran KN/LN squadron?) and it was likely the first time that most of us had played a game with sabots, and it was a surprise to all of us.

If your opponent is paying attention to what sabot plasmas do, movement wise, and are studiously avoiding overload range while moving at high speed on a large map, the sabot plasma isn't real likely to hit. Still. Unless your opponent chooses to let them hit for whatever reason. Like, the extra range means that the opponent is going to need to run further to avoid them, which is helpful if the plasma side needs to deal with things like drones

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 12:12 pm: Edit

duplicate post

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Lyan vs Federation battle continued last night and completed turn 3 in about 4 hours.

Lyrans fired first at R15 against the CS. 8 disruptors and 14 P1's no mods and scored 20 points (average was 30 so it was a very bad rolls). This hit a 4 point brick on the Number 1 shield and knocked it down to 14 points. Lyran's turned away.

Feds launched two more SP (four total) and began pursuit. The pursuit maintained a range on 13-15 hexes and fired 13 P1's and did 14 damage to the scouts #4 shield.

Lyran laid 2 TB's which took out the 10 drones of the first wave. Another 10 or so are heading in next turn.

Game will continue Thursday afternoon at 2pm Eastern time.

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Did I forget to mention the 6 sensor rolls to break his ECM drones? I missed them all. Of my 28 combat rolls this last turn 18 were 5's or 6's. You would think I was playing the Feds rather than against them.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Another observation: I'm unconvinced that EW actually improves the game.

I mean, I know a lot of it is baked into the balance--fighters and PF's need EW in play to basically exist; the thing that makes the Feds mostly balanced in muli-ship engagements is that EW can make the photons miss sometimes. But largely it is just an energy suck, and largely a zero issue most of the time. Between scouts and reserve power, most of the time, any situation that *could* result in a beneficial EW shift somehwere generally doesn't. And it just mostly slows the game down a lot.

I'm not suggesting that this sort of game not use EW. But so far, it is largely a zero effect rule that just slows everything down, both literally (due to energy use) and figuratively.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 04:37 pm: Edit

David, did you say it took 4 hours to play 1 turn?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 05:20 pm: Edit

>>Yes, on the list of rules used is D12 chain reactions. I've not often played with this rule before, but it was in the CL15 rules, so I kept it in for this first tournament.>>

Heh, like, I'm totally ok with Chain Reaction rules in play (as they are fun and funny!). We just weren't sure, and then looked it up when a SP got blown up on deck.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 05:21 pm: Edit

EW is a tough thing to judge.

In my game I was speed 12 with 3 ECM. Uncloaked and deployed the decoy drogue. When fully uncloaked I launched my R torps. Then sent the Drogue wild. ECM up to 9. I did this outside range 12. I know what 10 proximity photons can do. Range 13 plus 1-3. A +1 shift makes 1-2. He did not fire or even launch drones. I was hoping for both.

Now take a Klingon D7 vs a Fed CA. The Klingon closes and fires disr inside range 15 and Launches drones. Goes EM and increases ECM. The FED gets range 8. The klingon is gambling here. The FED fires 4 overloads at a +1 shift? Or waits till next turn?

The tourney rules say no EM. No EW at all. Except the 6 you get from a WW.

EW slows down ships. Gives seeker races an edge in EW with ECM drones and ECPs.

Slows the game down with the additional bookkeeping.

I have played with and without EW. It makes EM highly effective for ships without ship generated EW. It is not that hard for a ship to get more then 6 ECM. It is harder for a size class 4 to generate power but the lower move cost is better for EM.

That is 6 power on any ship gives 6 ECM or ECCM. EM gives 4 ECM. However, the cost is dependent on move cost. A size class 3 spends 12 power 6ECM and then 4ECM EM. A size class 4 9 points 6ECM and 3 for EM.

EW helps ships using seekers as their main weapon and hurts Direct fire ships more. I have found that players that prefer Direct fire weapons hate EW. Except of course EM drives them nuts.

As a klingon VS a FED. I might to want to slow down use EM and an ECM drone. That is 7 ECM and a little power and 10 ECM. The fed slowing down can get 6ECCM. Then maybe 4 from a MRS. The Klingon can add more. A +1 shift for the FED. The klingon a +2 shift with UIM DISR.

EW is a pain but if You want small ships to live you need it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Yeah, I mean, it certainly is necessary in some circumstances (the ones I mentioned, when using bases, and EW is the only thing that makes that 5xDD+ force remotely balanced).

But still, on average, it is largely a wash most of the time--in our game (both sides have scouts), both sides are using EW aggressively (ECM/ECCM/scout lending), and the Gorns have ECPs in play, and yet still, the only time there has been an EW shift was when the two Swordfish drones shot something (of, like, 5 firing opportunities), and that was only 'cause it just didn't seem worth it to counteract the 3ECM for a couple R1 p3 shots (the shift of 1 cost the Klingons 1 point of damage, but would have cost them 3 batteries to neutralize the ECM).

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Wednesday, February 19, 2025 - 08:50 pm: Edit

I expect to ultimately do a little better on the EW fight than Peter does, but yeah, so far it's a wash based on first pass.

A scout can't support every ship in the fleet well. Peter's BDS has loaned a couple points of ECM/ECCM to all 3 of his other ships, but he can only afford a couple points to each. One D6D can send a full 6 pts easily to a C7 and the C7 will generally have more spare power than the BDD to spare for ECM fights. Also, the D6D can jam his CCH. So if we ever get to range 8 phaser passes, even though his 3 ships have double the number of ph-1's than my C7, my C7 will likely shoot with no shift at at least one of his ships, and some of his ships will shoot at +1 or +2.

Or the C7 can not spend extra power on EW but go for overloaded disr and the D6D can make sure it has a clear shot. Right now though he has too many torps for me to slow down enough for range 8 overloads. Unless I'm willing to weasel at least 2 different batches of torps.

We'll see, my fleet is more based on big ship supported by good scout, and the E4's bring extra scatter packs and more drone control channels.

I still have to fly the fight without too many mistakes even if the strategy is correct.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 02:05 am: Edit

Turn length is one of the primary and most important metrics that we are seeking to understand. Yes, I think Dave and Ed have seen 4 hour turns. Please remember that Ed is new to SFBOL, and coming back to SFB, so player comfort and experience with the interface plays a big role.

I'm more impressed by Peter and Dana, both top-grade SFBOL tournament players, running a Gorn vs Klingon fleet battle turn in 1.5 hours, and some turns might get down to 1.0 hours, depending upon the number of units on the map.

I'm listening closely to player comments on plasma sabot, BPV & CO limits, unit limits, map size, starting locations, terrain options and other ideas that have been expressed. I'm not going to make comments on tactics (I have many, I'm holding my tongue), but I will write some kind of report with recommendations for the next fleet battle tournament.

So, please continue to comment with ideas, and especially give timing details on turns!

Paul & Rikk, how is your battle? Have you started, or do you have a schedule? Thanks!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 09:53 am: Edit

Just an observer here, but when I've played SFB over the last few years mostly it's been regular SFB. I've found that EW does make a difference.

First, because EW uses power, the ships tend to slow down somewhat. That makes a difference to seeker empires (especially BP).

Second, it often does make a difference during fire. Like much in SFB, EW is a guessing game. You don't always guess right. That +1 (or sometimes +2) can make a significant difference to the damage done, particularly at medium ranges.

Third, it allows you to put a ship or two out front under super heavy EW (forcing +2 or even +3). Usually the opponent is forced (or incentivized) to shoot the front ship(s) and do less damage, permitting heavy hitters to get a better map position or even a better shot.

EW is no panacea by any stretch of the imagination. However, I wouldn't call it a "wash" because it doesn't always even out - and even if it did it slows ships down (see 1 above).

My two quatloos...

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 09:58 am: Edit

We were playing a bit slow. We were not in much of a rhythm during IA. We have 9 ships and 20+ drones on the map so turns are going to take some time. I am confident the pace will pick up but I suspect there will be long turns when you have a lot of drones.

We have not had to deal with impulse after impulse of ADD fire drone control like my many Kzinti/Klingon campaign battles. Just finding the right drone to target on a very long target list can take a while...

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 10:13 am: Edit

David Hanson, does the "computer" make all of the die rolls in this tournament?

"18 of 28 combat rolls were 5's or 6's."
That means 10 of 28 were not.

It is a bit high (like this human tends roll).

I once had 18 PG's firing on a target at range 15.
18*4=72 shots!
I expected the average of 72/6 = 12 hits (a 1 on a d6). I hit with 5.

Just for Grins, my fellow players rolled 72 dice and yes, they did way better. One did around 24 hits. (This would have dealt internals on the target!)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 10:55 am: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

Got T4 done.

Start of turn, the GRN are about 15 hexes from the West wall, 40+ hexes from the South wall, facing E. The E4s are about 15 hexes behind to the NE, the D6D is 25 hexes to the NE, and the C7 is 33 hexes due East. There are 8 drones on the map.

T4: GRN start at 17. KLI have C7 at 20, E4's at 19, D6D at 28. GRN turn South immediately. E4s turn in towards the GRN also going South. They slow down to 10, encouraging the GRN to launch some plasma, so they launch 3x sabot F torps in the direction of the E4s. The E4s fire some disruptors at the GRN CCH, do 6 damage to the #5 which all stick. E4s turn off. GRN turn in to direction C. C7 becomes alarmed and turns North. Ships move, sabot plasma F's catch up to the speed 10 E4s. The E4 with phasers still shoots them up, and they impact for 30 damage, -7 from phasers, taking 13 in. GRN follow up with 9xP1s at 15 hexes an impulse later, but roll poorly and only do 6 more in (no EW shift on either side at this point). The CCH launches a sabot S torp towards the KLI cruisers which are sort of meeting up in the middle. The E4s turn off in direction B and run for a while.

During all this time, the Klingons have been launching drones and a few SPs, that open eventually. The GRN manage to kill 4 drones on 6 scout channel kill attempts. About impulse 19, the GRN (except scout) speed up to 30 and turn South to run from drones. The C7 turns in to follow, and finally launches an ECM drone at itself. There is a flurry of EW loaning, seeing the CCH get up to 10 ECM, which just convinces the C7 to fire 4 std disruptors at the HDD, hitting with 2 for 6 damage which sticks on the HDDs #5. The sabot S torp catches up, is shot by 6xP1 and 3xP2 (from the D6D, blinding a channel), which then hits the C7 for 8 damage on it's #2, but it was unsurprisingly fake. The GRN BDS speeds up to 24, and we blast through the last 7 impulses in, like, 5 minutes (as nothing happens but movement).

At the end of the turn, the GRN force (the 3 warships have all been in the same hex all game; the BDS is usually about 6 or 7 hexes further away from the enemy) is about 20 hexes from the West wall and about 22 hexes from the South wall, all facing D. The C7 is 12 hexes to the NE, the D6D is 2 hexes behind the C7. Both are facing D. Both E4s are about 30 hexes to the NE of the GRN force, facing C.

Both E4s are effectively mission killed--both are crippled (they start with 37 internal boxes, one has 20 points of internal damage, the other has 19); they can still move, and both still have their drone rack, but with 10 or 11 total power, and few guns left, they are mostly out of the fight at this point.

The GRN haven't take any significant damage yet. The HD has a 10 box #2 (14 damage) and an 18 box #5 (6 damage). The CCH has an 18 box #5 (6 damage). That being said, there are currently 17 drones on the map, and they can launch many more next turn.

The sabot plasma continue to be better than non sabot plasma, certainly, but still difficult to employ--yes, I did hit an E4 with 30 points of plasma F (yaa!), but only 'cause my opponent decided to make them move speed 10 (which was very likely an intentional move so I'd launch plasmas at the E4's instead of the C7, which worked, but, well, I gotta do *something*).

As Dana detailed above, his EW situation is way better than mine--he only has one ship that is going to generally be firing DF weapons (the C7, which is bananas), so he can get by with a single scout channel and loaning maximum ECCM to one ship, and he doesn't really need ECM, as (other than the now broken E4s), I can't really ever fire DF weapons at the C7 (too many drones, all the time). That is just commentary on his particular strategy, which is working well so far.

Will continue in the near future. Got T4 done in marginally under 2 hours, including EA (although we both probably mostly figured out EA between sessions).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 10:55 am: Edit

---

Quote:

So, since these fleets have to fight, and not just get published, what is revealed is a bit different.

---

---

Quote:

So, please continue to comment with ideas

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 11:08 am: Edit

Although it's irrelevant to this speciifc tournament, sabot torpedoes can be useful in base assaults as they enable the (plasma-armed) attacker to launch at longer range but still do damage as if at closer range. A phaser-IV at 10 hexes averages 6¹/₂ points of damage. in the 11-13 range bracket it only averages 4¹/₂. But with plasma sabot, the plasma-armed ships can be at a true range that that places them in the 11-13 bracket, but their heavy (Type-G and up) topredoes are still hitting at full strength and the Type-F torpedoes are hitting at 75% strength. Against a BATS, the atttacker takes a total of 12 fewer points of damage from the phaser-IVs, while the plasma hits as if launched from a range of 10. Against a starbase with 12 phaser-IVs, the attacker would take 24 fewer points of damage.

Of course the power issue still remains and in some cases it may be better just to put the power used to create the sabot into a "brick" for the shields, instead. And as already admitted, this isn't relative to this tournament, in any case.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 11:48 am: Edit

>>ot torpedoes can be useful in base assaults as they enable the (plasma-armed) attacker to launch at longer range but still do damage as if at closer range.>>

Like, don't get me wrong here--I don't think that sabot plasmas are *bad*. They are clearly good weapons and a significant improvement over non sabot plasma.

I just think that on a giant map with no fixed target (like a base or something) when your opponents can just always turn and run from plasma when launched at moderate ranges, and you can't realistically pin anyone against a wall (like on a tournament map) to make them deal with the plasma, and, say, your opponent can keep you away with a billion drones every turn, sabot plasma isn't a particular improvement over regular plasma. I mean, again, it is certainly an improvement. But I don't think it really changes the basic dynamic of "Plasma isn't real good on a giant/floating map".

I mean, like, I just got a bad draw for an opponent (i.e. a drone forward Klingon force with infinite fast drones), and maybe would have an easier time trying to force someone into a wall if they were, like, Feds or the Lyrans or whatever. But running aggressively towards Feds isn't real attractive either...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 11:52 am: Edit

>>EW is no panacea by any stretch of the imagination. However, I wouldn't call it a "wash" because it doesn't always even out - and even if it did it slows ships down>>

Oh, sure. Like, again, there are certainly situations where EW can be significant. See, again, EW is the only thing that makes that 5xDD+ squadron remotely balanced, and it certainly gives you a lot of options to consider.

I just don't know that the overhead is really worth the trouble. I'd probably rather play without EW (which would require other rules/fixed forces to prevent, like, 5xDD+ squadrons that are generally reasonable with EW in play). I mean, again, I'm not suggesting that EW be removed from this sort of event. But I think it largely just slows the game down for not much gain, in terms of entertainment. But that's me.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 01:05 pm: Edit

For comparison's sake, over in Federation Commander there is no ECM nor ECCM - though there is a form of EM, as well as a simplified set of special sensor rules.

But, in FC there are no proximity photons either. Further, in that game system, most empires' ships have to pay double to move backwards.

So, in the case of the Fed all-destroyer squadron listed above, one would have to get a lot closer with one's ships - and to do so while flying them facing forwards, so no Kaufman Retrogrades - in order to try and leverage all of that photon torpedo firepower.

In fairness, however, given how fast ships can go in FC (where there are no "housekeeping" costs for most empires, no acceleration limits, and where "power is power" in terms of Energy Allocation) relative to in SFB, empires that are reliant on energy-based seeking weapons are faced with even greater challenges on open maps there than they are over here...

-----

Now, much as there are aspects of FC (such as charging double to fly backwards) which I prefer over how they are written in SFB, I'm not necessarily in too much of a hurry to suggest sieving through the FC Reference Rulebook for things to splice into future iterations of this tournament. After all, one could simply try to run another squadron tournament for that game system instead.

It does, however, show the kind of challenge that one faces when trying to develop a more "streamlined" game system which functions similarly to "historical" SFB, without going too far off course in one direction or another.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 01:32 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

But I think it largely just slows the game down for not much gain, in terms of entertainment. But that's me.

---

---

Quote:

...Both E4s are effectively mission killed--both are crippled (they start with 37 internal boxes, one has 20 points of internal damage, the other has 19); they can still move, and both still have their drone rack, but with 10 or 11 total power, and few guns left, they are mostly out of the fight at this point.

The GRN haven't take any significant damage yet...

---

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 01:37 pm: Edit

>>Sounds like the Klinks are much the worse for it.>>

Currently, the Klingons have 2 crippled E4s that are largely unimportant to their battle effort. On the other hand, they have, like, 20 fast drones on the map, can launch more, and won't ever run out of them.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 01:50 pm: Edit

For the record, T4 was 2 hours exactly, with a 10 min EA. I thought it was going to go quicker as my expectation was Peter would run to the south edge while filling up phaser caps and topping up batteries. I figured his CCH was almost empty, but on reflection maybe the 5 reinforcement I saw 2 turns ago was general and not battery. But when he turned in and launched torps I ended up doing a little more stuff as well.

Anyways, I'm feeling pretty good. I've got 2 crippled E4's. But I wouldn't say they are mission kills. Most importantly, they can still go speed 21 to 24 with Fire control which means they can maintain range 30 and provide 12 drone control channels. Which means the C7 can always weasel if needed and the D6D and E4's will still control enough drones.

So I think I'm now in a good position to force a pass with the C7 where I will do more internals than I will take. Currently in arc, his 3 ships have 1 s-torp, no f torps and no pseudo. He could turn right to bring his RS in arc and launch 3 f-torps backwards, and maybe that S-torp. Getting his HDD and BDD FP S and G torp into arc is going to be trickier for him. Any attempt to do so is likely going to give me overload range and I can easily weasel his torps without worrying about an overrun as he has too many drones to deal with.