What Dana said.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Did I read (from one of you) that in a fleet battle on the size of the map you are playing on that the game is not balanced without ECM? I would think that definitely would mean that using ECM is required, even if it does slow down the game.

Also, a question for those with experience, is it slower or faster to play 500 BPV battles online?

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Thursday, February 20, 2025 - 10:23 pm: Edit

I think Peter's point was that ECM is required to balance some fleets. His example was 5 Fed DD+'s at 100 pts each. Almost a cruiser armament on a tiny hull but trouble moving fast and holding OLs. Luckily we haven't added in narrow salvoes as that could get even scarier. I agree that EW support is probably needed to face something like that.

Otherwise he has stated that between balanced fleets EW just adds extra time. I don't think it adds a lot of extra time, and I like adding it into a fleet. But there is a little extra overhead and thought going into it.

It's been a lot of years since I have played pen/paper fleet battles. But I think when you are used to the online game, it goes faster. First, counters don't get bumped. Second, the new lines showing move paths are great. I looked down in 3rd turn and realized 2 impulses later I'd been moving a couple drones illegaly (ie not tracking their target and slipping away). Just a mistake from trying to quickly move 20 drones. Anyways, simple to point out to Peter, and just move the drones to the corrrect hex (luckily they were still far enough away it hadn't affected anything he was doing).

Final, imagine the stacks of 4 to 10 drones, shuttles, ships, and you have to dig through the stack to find the correct ship that moves this impulse and not others. Or imagine half your drones are fast and half are medium. Easy to tell online which ones are move each impulse. Computer tells you if you forgot to move somethig, etc.

Yeah, more I talk about it, more I think its better. Once you get a handle on using the game properly. But probably best to learn the interface with one or two simple ships and add rules in as you play.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 21, 2025 - 06:39 am: Edit

Jack,

As noted, I think some parts of the game are specifically balanced with EW as part of the equation--fighters and PFs, for example, get a lot of free EW, and if you aren't using EW, they lose that advantage that is baked into them. Bases (certainly since their guns no longer blind their sensors) very much rely on EW existing in a game to maintain built in advantages. Photons, in large groups (see: 5xDD+, or whatever) are, in large part, balanced in play by the existence of EW (i.e. the photon ships need to manage a non negative EW environment to be able to shoot reliably, which takes power and effort).

That being said, in a lot of situations, EW is largely a wash, is a lot of overhead for not much gain, in terms of entertainment. But also, as noted, that's me.

In terms of play speed, I think largely playing on SFBOL is in some ways faster, and in other ways slower. Having to navigate the giant pile of units is slow (and as an aside, either I haven't yet figured out how to fully navigate the Units List, or it is kind of arbitrary in how it decides to list and relist items every second--for example, I want to move all my ships and connected ECM Plasmas withj a single click, so I reorder the Units List such that my ships and ECP are all together on the list, and am about to highlight them all to be able to move them all with a single click, and then my opponent moves a drone, and my Units List reorders all the units again, so I have to repeat the process, at which point my opponent moves another drone, and it rejiggers the list, etc.), but it is definitely handy to not have to worry about jostling the board and moving counters by accident, and navigating multiple EA and SSD forms is a delight.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 21, 2025 - 09:41 am: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

(it is worth noting that I'm on vacation this week, and Dana can play for a couple hours in the morning before he starts work, which is why we are making so much progress).

Got through impulse 16 of T5.

At start of turn, the GRN force (the 3 warships have all been in the same hex all game; the BDS is usually about 6 or 7 hexes further away from the enemy) is about 20 hexes from the West wall and about 22 hexes from the South wall, all facing D. The C7 is 12 hexes to the NE, the D6D is 2 hexes behind the C7. Both are facing D. Both E4s are about 30 hexes to the NE of the GRN force, facing C. There are 17 drones on the map, none closer than R4 to the GRN force.

T5: GRN start at 24, drop to 23 on impulse 5. KLI have C7 moving 20, D6D and E4s moving 21 (IIRC). Impulse 2, the GRN turn to face C (from D) and launch 3 heavy standard sabot torps (S, S, G). Through slipping away, they avoid R8 and turn South as soon as they can. The plasma closes in on the D6D/C7 (which are close together at this point). When they are at R4, the KLI use 6 labs to ID their targets, and they are all on the C7. Plasma closes to R1 of the C7. C7 hasn't slowed down yet, or sped up (obviously) yet. There is more EW lending and ECCM increasing with reserve, so the C7 is at 6ECM (including ECM drone) and the CCH that is controlling all the plasma as at 8 ECCM (including torp ECCM). The KLI fire lots of phasers at the torps, blasting 31 damage of the warheads. It is still possible that 2 of the torps are fake. Next impulse (it is, like, i10 or something), the C7 turns in and takes all the plasma in the face. All of it is real, so it takes 49 on a 36 box #1 with a point of reinforcement, for a dozen in, losing a disruptor, a P1, a couple power. GRN scout loans the CCH more ECCM (which was largely unnecessary, but still), and then the CCH fires 6xP1 at R13-14 (no ECM shift; the other GRN ships were going to have a -2 shift, so they didn't ever fire) into the C7 over the next few impulses, scoring another 7 internals, hitting a couple more power, another P1, and the ADD rack.

Meanwhile, the KLI launch more drones. And then more drones. The GRN BDS managed to kill 5/6 drones with 6 scout channel kill attempts (sensor officer is promoted), and still, no drones are inside of R4 at this point.

The GRN turn off again and are moving in direction E toward the SW corner of the map. The KLI turn in and follow, undeterred. The GRN drop another mine to get some incoming drones in a few impulses. Impulse 16, the GRN slow down to 17.

As of press time (end of impulse 16, T5), the GRN are facing E, speed 17, about a dozen hexes from the South wall and about 20 hexes from the West wall (and the BDS is 10 hexes to the West of the other ships). The C7 and D6D are about 13 hexes to the NE of the main GRN force, facing E. The E4s are still about 30 hexes away (as Dana mentioned, they still can move, and still can control 6 drones each, as long as they stay within 35 hexes). The KLI have 19 drones on the map (1 is an ECM drone with the C7), none are closer than 6 hexes from a GRN ship. The GRN only have a single F tube facing the enemy at this point, but if they turn DIR F, they will have an S tube and 3xF tubes facing them.

The C7 has a down #1 and 19 internals, having lost disruptor, 2xP1, 2x warp, impulse, ADD, and fluff. Both E4s are just barely crippled. The GRN still haven't taken much damage, other than some shield damage here and there. The KLI still have 3 disruptors to fire this turn.

I was very much expecting the C7 just to be moving speed 24, dropping to 12, and then using a decoy drogue (which it has) to skunk all the plasma. But it didn't do that. It is possible that this was also Dana's plan, but he mistimed it, and ended up using a bunch of C7 batteries to keep his speed up and pursue, gambling that some of the plasma was fake (I had planned on launching one fake plasma, assuming it was going to get drogued, but at the last second, just pulled the trigger on the real torp, as it wasn't impossible that Dana was just going to shoot it all and eat it to keep closing).

Still 16 impulses to go this turn, and the GRN are running out of room to run. On the upside, the KLI don't have many weapons left to fire. On the downside, still a billion drones.

It took 90 minutes to play 16 busy impulses.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, February 21, 2025 - 10:59 am: Edit

I wrote an article on the BBS long ago that adresses the whole "I just think that on a giant map with no fixed target (like a base or something) when your opponents can just always turn and run " issue.

IIRC it was ISC vs Klingons. Captain Q'Lever on the ISC CC "Dudley Do Right" I think. The Klingons D7C was the IKV Bunny Slayer" under Captain Kidiot

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 21, 2025 - 11:07 am: Edit

And your conclusion was...

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 05:52 am: Edit

Peter,

I've really been holding my tongue, given my role as judge, however, I just have to contribute to this "sabot power vs large map" ongoing debate.

Your selected tactic as Gorn has been to concentrate your forces into a single hex. This is analogous to the Module T tournament tactical situation, even though the map is much bigger. Its like you have a "single ship" that is maybe 2.4x bigger, while playing on a map that is 4x bigger (but the total area of space is increased by 70x). In this situation, I get that you are saying: "hey, I can't force a plasma hit unless my opponent decides to run through them!" ... in this particular battle, your opponent has indeed run through plasma, at least to some degree.

By this logic, we can see that if we had a Fed/Zin/Klingon CVA group, or a bunch of Rom/Gorn/ISC PFs with say 1600 BPV (roughly 10x what we see in the cruiser tournament), then I doubt the map would feel so big. This size fleet is also almost unplayable, except as a labor of love, so cannot be rightly considered in a tournament system.

This tactic of a tight concentration of force, however, is not the only tactic available to a plasma-armed fleet. With multiple ships, you now have the ability to disperse your plasma launch points in such a way as to potentially trap the target ships between two launch points and/or the map walls. This tactic was described in the Romulan section of the SFB Tactics Manual as the "Talon's of the Eagle", which was designed for use on a floating map, and it becomes somewhat more effective on a fixed map.

It is precisely because the sabot plasma balance is "new" to many of us, and also that the "infinite" (to use your descriptor) fast drones are really powerful on a fixed map that the ratios were considered, and the wisdom of the designers for plasma sabot & fast drones, as well as CL15 tournament designer was respected in this regard.

I hear you talking about the continuous drone waves, and it seems you have used the size of the map to help you manage this, and indeed have been able to use a lot of phaser firepower against your opponent's ships. I did not see that you had to use WW/decoy-drogue, or use your Ph-1, or indeed plasma carronade in drone defense, at least not yet. Seems you might have used a few T-bombs to some good effect, but they are magazine limited, as are indeed his fast drones. Indeed, you've scored some good damage by hitting one of the archers before he could loose his arrows (as the U.S. Navy parable goes) by destroying an E4 scatterpack in the bay.

Now, maybe in the next proposed tournament format we can change things a bit. But for now, there is nothing that seems clearly out of balance. Maybe something will become more apparent as we keep playing. I think it is partly getting a feeling for this new tactical environment and experimenting with what might work, beyond just the tactics that we've used for decades in the cruiser tournament.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 07:28 am: Edit

>>Now, maybe in the next proposed tournament format we can change things a bit. But for now, there is nothing that seems clearly out of balance.>>

I've not made any hard claims otherwise, nor suggested changing anything for this event.

I still don't think that sabot plasma has changed the basic dynamic of plasma isn't real good on a huge map. My opponent has, for whatever reason, been choosing to run into my plasma (and by "whatever reason", I mean "to corner me and crush me with drones"), so I have been doing damage so far. But in all situations where plasma has hit, my opponent had the opportunity to avoid that, but for tactical reasons, chose not to. Given the opportunity to continue to snipe in a long game, this could be going on for a long, long time.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 07:52 am: Edit

>>I've not made any hard claims otherwise, nor suggested changing anything for this event.>>

Yes, I know, you are just commenting on your observations. And its good to bring this up and discuss.

>>I still don't think that sabot plasma has changed the basic dynamic of plasma isn't real good on a huge map.>>

I'm suggesting alternative tactics to solve the challenges that you have mentioned, as above.

>>Given the opportunity to continue to snipe in a long game, this could be going on for a long, long time.>>

Even with heavy DF ships and powerful scouts, plasma ships can always guarantee a two shift, using natural EW, like erratic maneuvers or WW/DD. Again, I'm suggesting alternative tactics to deal with the long range sniping game.

It might take a long while to reach consensus about what is fair in terms of fixed map size vs stronger seeking weapons vs fleet size. We've just built on what was considered balanced before, but even then it was considered experimental.

Frankly, I like the idea of a smaller map (maybe 60 x 48), and with a small moon or class M planet in the middle, as a balance factor vs too much seeking weapon power. This really puts a premium on maneuver and timing. There are "historical" scenarios in SFB with plasma fleets on a fixed map, such as SH187 Operation Tribune ... Maybe we'll get to experiment with such a format, I'd be happy to take the direct fire fleet in such a test battle ...

But anyway, this tournament is already yielding many interesting data points and opinions, so thanks for playing and expressing your thoughts!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 08:29 am: Edit

>>I'm suggesting alternative tactics to solve the challenges that you have mentioned, as above.>>

Sure. But as the judge, I'd probably shy away from suggesting alternative tactics and commenting on the tactics of a game in progress.

Like, I'm here sharing observations. I'm not claiming I'm 100% correct at any point, as I have no ability to do that. We got 7 other people and 3 other games to generate comments as well. I just am talky :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 09:31 am: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

Finished T5.

Impulse 16, the GRN are facing E, speed 17, about a dozen hexes from the South wall and about 20 hexes from the West wall (and the BDS is 10 hexes to the West of the other ships). The C7 and D6D are about 13 hexes to the NE of the main GRN force, facing E. The E4s are still about 30 hexes away (as Dana mentioned, they still can move, and still can control 6 drones each, as long as they stay within 35 hexes). The KLI have 19 drones on the map (1 is an ECM drone with the C7), none are closer than 6 hexes from a GRN ship. The GRN only have a single F tube facing the enemy at this point, but if they turn DIR F, they will have an S tube and 3xF tubes facing them. The GRN dropped a t-bomb on impulse 16.

The GRN (moving 17) move forward a few hexes. The t-bomb takes out 4 drones. The KLI increase speed, C7 to 30, D6D to 28. The GRN turn dir F and launch 3x sabot F torps toward the KLI cruisers. The C7 turns off (to get it's down #1 away and probably avoid plasma), D6D launches a SP and keeps closing. It soon becomes apparent that the plasma is all targeted on the D6D and they rapidly close. GRN drop the non facing #1 of the HD, which transports out a couple t-bombs up ahead of the group, but as all the angles are wonky, it'll be hard to get many drones with them. Eventually, the t-bombs manage to kill 2 total drones (woo!).

The GRN keep slipping away, the F torps catch up to the D6D, which slips to take the plasma on the non facing #6 for 45 damage (it had no unfired phasers in arc to shoot them), taking 23 in, losing 7 power, a drone rack, 3 phasers, and a sensor channel.

Drones close in, the GRN ID and kill 6 drones with phasers by the end of the turn (4 are regular type I, 2 of them are armored with 6 damage, 6 warhead).

Impulse 32, the C7 gets back to R8 (which I didn't notice, due to paying attention to all the drones), it fires 2xOL, 1xStd disruptors, no EW shift, at the damaged shield of the HD, hits with everything, does 15 damage, scoring 3 internals after a couple reinforcement (P3, warp, hull).

Putting a note here to remember to have the C7 roll for UIM burnout, as that is a thing that happens here, which we both forgot at the time.

At the end of the turn, the GRN are 13 hexes from the West wall and 13 hexes from the South wall (the BDS is 2 hexes from the West wall), all facing F. The D6D (down #6, 23 internals) is 5 hexes from the GRN warships in direction B, facing E. The C7 (down #1, ~20 interanls) is 8 hexes from the GRN warships, direction A, facing E. There are 13 drones on the map, 7 of them inside of R5. Both E4s (both lightly crippled) are 22 hexes to the NE.

At the end of the turn, one of the E4s fixed a shield box.

Next turn promises to be exciting.

It took us about 90 minutes to get through these 16 impulses (so about 3 turns all told for the whole turn, over two sessions).

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 09:38 am: Edit

I disagree that plasma ships can always guarantee a 2pt shift.

I can put 12 ECCM on my C7 with 6 loaned from D6D. CCH with support can counter that with ship ECM, loaned ECM (scout and ECM plasma) and if needed EM. The little ships can't. They could EM and that is efficient for them but undamaged C7 can fly at 26 with 8 disr, 4 housekeeping and 6 ECM. With 7 batt, I can fly faster and adjust ECCM as needed at time of fire. The gorn scout can't protect all ships and they can't fly fast to stay at range, EM and generate enough ECM to get a 2 pt shift. If they want to WW and stop moving, I'm ok with that.

As Peter said, I'm choosing to engage because personally I don't have the patience to play a long range sniping shot, turn off and run plasma, snipe, for 20+ turns. Also, I'm not sure Peter and I could reasonably commit enough evenings to get that game played in a month. So I'm willing to take plasma damage in exchange for pushing him against a wall and force the issue.

I'm enjoying this though, I'd be happy for test battles later.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 11:18 am: Edit

My conclusion, given the disparity between "Tactical" speeds and normal cruising speeds is that a retrograde is doomed in empty space to have their opponent turn 60 degrees to the side, bank past your force and disengage by acceleration in the direction of the target.

Retrogaders have to stop their movement in reverse and accelerate in forward gear. By the time they get up to speed the other guys are LONG gone.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 11:54 am: Edit

Can I get a ruling before we start next turn. What happens if I tractor a ship and force it off map. Is it forcibly disengaged or destroyed depending on the map edge. Do we deal with it like the tourney where the link is broken and they take damage?

Ok, EOT summary

Gorn - they have used 4 of I believe 9 t-bombs.
CCH - 6 pt sh damage to #5 (non facing), empty batts, 2 or 3 pts in ph cap, RS S-torp available including psuedo.
HDD - 3 internals, down #2 sh facing C7, 6 pts #5 (non facing), batts unknown, 1 or 2 pts in ph cap, no torps available. Missing 1 power, 1 ph-3.
BDD - no shield damage, batts unknown, 1 or 2 pts in ph cap, no torps available.

overall - 3 internals, 36 shield damage.

Klingon - 13 drones on map EOT + 2 ECM drones. Every drone will likely reach target this turn, he could maybe turn and out run 2 of them.
C7 - down #1 shield, 19 internals (3 power, 1 batt, ADD, disr, 2ph-1). Probably low or 0 batts couple pts in ph caps. Can still move 31.
D6D - down #6 shield, 23 internals, 7 power, 1 batt, 1 drone, 3 ph-2, 1 sensor. Probably empty batt, maybe 2 pts in ph-cap.
E4A - down #2 shield, 2 pts damage to every other shield (3 to #1), 19 internals - 10 power, 3ph-2, drone and ADD rack left. Ph-cap?
E4B - #4 shield has 1 repaired box, 20 internals - 11 power, 1 disr, drone, ADD left (no phasers).

So I have taken 94 shield damage and 81 internals.

Simple numbers, the gorn are up by a lot. Map positioning and situation. I think they could be in trouble. Peter knows he has mostly encountered I-xF drones, only a few specials and I don't think any heavies. He has killed 10 unidentified drones with t-bombs so maybe got some heavies in there. But it's possible that the current drones + next launch is going to be heavily weighted towards special drones and heavies. My ships could launch 11 drones this turn (4 x C7, 5 x D6D, 2 from E4's might not matter depending on where he moves, they are 20+ hexes away). I could also deploy drone drogue for up to 6 more and the C7 MRS has 2 drones. C7 has an unknown shuttle which might be a spare WW, or maybe another SP, I've had time to load one?

So Gorns have to deal with between 24 to 32 drones. His scout has been rolling great, but still max 9 broken locks. His 3 combat ships probably can't keep the C7 from getting range 4 or less unless I completely misjudge movement. If his CCH refills batts, phasers and completes S torp it probably can't move faster than 20. Maybe he'll stop and weasel if he has any, which is unlikely to even stop all the drones currently on the map and won't stop anything in the racks. Maybe he'll need to drop facing shields on the CCH to lay t-bombs in hexes that will stop drones and just take his ph/disr internals. Most of his phasers will likely need to go to drone defense so I'm probably not going to take much damage this turn, I have 1 s-torp to deal with and lots of side shields. Although I'm sure if I turned the down front shield on the C7 at him he'd try and shoot me with something.

If he stops and weasels both my ships have no reason not to come to range 1 before launching the next batch of drones. He's got to have lots of neg tractor because although the D6D is a scout, it would happily tractor the BDD and drag it off by itself before launching 5 drones at it. If he wants to star castle and launch lots of shuttles I've got a bunch of tractors to death drag half of them, maybe before their phasers could shoot.

He could go fast enough to see how the drone defense goes, and the scout works, and if it doesn't he could turn and disengage giving up the fight?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 02:24 pm: Edit

>>Gorn - they have used 4 of I believe 9 t-bombs.>>

IIRC, I used 3 on the HD (which started with 3, so none left) and 1 on the CCH (which started with 4, so 3 left). The other two ships each have 2 t-bombs each still--I started with 11, and used 4.

Of note--we forgot to check and see if the UIM burned out (which is a thing in non tournament play, so I assume relevant here?). If it burns out on a 5-6, the C7 can't fire those 2 disruptors for 32 impulses.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Mike wrote:
>>My conclusion, given the disparity between "Tactical" speeds and normal cruising speeds is that a retrograde is doomed in empty space to have their opponent turn 60 degrees to the side, bank past your force and disengage by acceleration in the direction of the target.>>

I mean, sure? But that isn't really germane to the point at hand, as this isn't a situation where one can disengage by acceleration in the direction of the target. As the target is the enemy force. And disengaging is resigning the game. But in a situation where that is a viable plan, yes, agreed!

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Yes, I'll roll for UIM when we restart. That may save me 8 power, and you some damage.

Also, I reread what I wrote and felt I should clarify. I don't mean to imply I am in a guaranteed win spot here. But I have succeeded in pushing my plan which was to get him in a corner with minimal plasma and a lot of drones that he has to deal with.

He may successfully deal with them, scout breaks lockon of 6, t-bombs 9, shoots 11, lets a few 12 pointers or maybe some 1/2 space 6 pointers hit him on different shields, tractors a couple more. Then my firing pass may not do enough internals.

But if t-bombs don't get enough, and I get 3 or 4 hits on the same shield that will be a good thing.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Oh, I think you are in a fantastic spot currently. This is what I was concerned was going to happen in the first place. I was just a little more concerned that it was going to take 15 turns to get here :-)

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 09:05 pm: Edit

OK, your ruling request:

---

Quote:

Can I get a ruling before we start next turn. What happens if I tractor a ship and force it off map. Is it forcibly disengaged or destroyed depending on the map edge. Do we deal with it like the tourney where the link is broken and they take damage?

---

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Also, UIM burnout.

The rule was not listed, it just says go with Module T rules. The intent, however, was to operate Klingons in the normal way. Many Klingon ships have multiple UIM, so doing some kind of BPV adjustment for un-burnable UIM conversion? Out of scope ...

The rule is (and should have been explicitly) Klingon UIMs are burnable per the normal rules. I will add that into the next version of the adjusted rules.

Thanks for finding this.

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Sunday, February 23, 2025 - 10:00 am: Edit

Lyran-Federation fight continued.

The Lyran started the turn moving away with the Federation in pursuit. Two SP worth of drones were chasing on a stern line and were killed by a T-Bomb.

The Lyrans were able to get to about R20 before turning back in. The Fed ships had fired a volley of drones which were taken out by another T-bomb. The Lyran fired at R15 late in the turn (imp 26), hitting the CLC's #2 with 8 disruptors and 8 P1's (knocked it down to 6). The Feds turned in and the Lyran unloaded the rest of their phasors at the CS's damaged #1 (knocked it down to 3). Lyrans turned away ending the turn at about and are R14 SE of the feds, heading towards the wall (22 hexes to the south wall and 15 to the east wall). The feds declined to fire to enable better pursuit speed next turn.

We were playing slow and the turn took about 5 hours. ED is still learning the SFBOL UI and I had a few interruptions at home. I am hoping the next session will play faster. We are scheduled for Wednesday night.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, February 23, 2025 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Bakija.

Squadron A is going somewhere to do something. Squadron B is determined to not let A accomplish their mission.

If B leaves the "someplace" by any significant distance, slows to tactical speeds, and tries to retrograde, A is going to juke them, cruise over to the place of interest and have their way with whatever is there. Convoy, colony, base station, whatever...

If BOTH A and B are determined to just fight it out in the middle of no where, then sure retrograde is just fine.

My main point is that unless you can force the enemy to engage you RIGHT HERE, he is going to look for ways to avoid you and go off to do his mission. It is completely impossible to make the enemy engage you if you are in reverse.

B is retrograding. Turn 1: B announces speed 25 in reverse. A announces speed 31 and turns right I can't remember if they have to announce they plan to disengage by acceleration. So if B makes a turn to remain parallel, they will soon see A get out of their FA.

Alternately B announces emergency deceleration. Going to pay for a quick reverse and mid turn speed change? So B is going speed 5 or so for how long? A makes 26 hexes of relative progress. A turns back left and heads towards their objective as soon as possible. Next turn B gets up to speed 20. turn 3 B gets up to speed 31. turn 4 B starts to chase A at "high warp speeds." Of course they don't follow exactly in the trail (t bombs you know).

Even given A INSTANTLY figuring it all out, B is going to be around 3 turns ahead of A.

I haven't reviewed all the various rules about quick reverse and disengaging by acceleration in a long time, but I think I covered the gist of the rules.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, February 23, 2025 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Again, sure? Yes. Agreed. But none of that is particularly relevant to the situation under discussion here (and no one was discussing retrograding at any point).

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, February 23, 2025 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Disengaging by acceleration:

One must announce on impulse 1 that you are disengaging by acceleration.

One must use warp energy to go the maximum speed that the ship can do. (Typically, this is speed 30. If some warp boxes are damaged, then the remaining warp boxes determine the maximum speed.)

If one has less than half of the total warp boxes available on the ship, then you are not allowed to disengage.

One may not turn - i.e. must go straight.


The Klingon/Gorn game is most interesting. I tend to be a plasma player (ISC, Gorn, and sometimes Romulan. And I like playing the Hydran for variety). I have played Klingon. Drone Frigates are NASTY. Paying for the speed upgrades and specialty drones is expensive. The drone wave they can create and maintain is scary.