I'm a horrible teacher. I get annoyed too easily. :D

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 - 08:16 am: Edit

Main reason I'm using the KR in our current campaign is so I can focus on teaching the new players and take it as a given that I won't be in the running for top campaign score.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 - 01:50 pm: Edit

FWIW: It's not necessarily realistic, but I have found that a monitor vs. a heavy cruiser/battle cruiser (depending on race) is a good teaching scenario. Yes, the monitor is heavily armed, but the counter is that it's not moving very quickly so can be easily evaded. This gives the new player a chance to learn how to "dance and weave" in a situation where they will almost always own the initiative. It also gives them a chance to runaway and regroup for a turn or two if they mistime weapons cycling, etc.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, August 18, 2021 - 03:32 pm: Edit

What, no WW?
One strategy for the KR is to launch Pseudo Torps and Real Torps when you know the Gorn is charging. The Nuclear Space mine is a good idea.

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 09:09 am: Edit

I'm still trying to figure out effective use of pseudo torps. A Plas-G (even two) isn't a terribly big threat. This reduces the effectiveness of the PPT. Both the Gorn and Fed opponents largely ignored them while charging in to attack.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Well....if both are real...or in the case of all 4 pseudo and real being launched making shooting them down an issue...most heavy cruisers really do not do well taking 40 points of damage to a shield. Add in they then have your phasers which will add at least some Miza damage and it becomes a lot more problematic.

Then add in you run away after launch and their charge becomes much more difficult to complete. And since you can cloak...start of next turn if you managed to maintain some range...like 10? You can start at 8...with a speed change to 4 after the cloak comes up and almost always shake anything they have launched at you. Even if you do not...the Cloak combat chart is in effect and a good chance exists for anything inbound to do just half damage. Trying to point blank also means risking a dropped T bomb or NSM so again...it can be a problem for a Captain who wants to close and fight. Even getting that miracle sensor lock on can be severely degraded by losing half your damage.

Cloak is a lot more powerful at times than people think. And has been pointed out...you set off a T bomb...and BOOM you can attempt a lock on. The issue is when the T bomb goes off...you can see him. Then when the phase comes up where you do lock on you may not get it. Especially at slow speeds. So you have to T bomb a number of times to even have lock on then grab him with a tractor. But even then all it does is kill the doubled range just for your ship with the tractor. You still roll on the chart and can do half damage.

Most people advise never use the cloak. If you can maintain speed and outrun things? Great idea. If they have plasma like you do, it can be an issue. Anyway...cloak...dont cloak. But always remember that is a very valid choice at specific times. Having torps or a mass of drones just go away is always a good thing.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Remember that a PPT can, as an alternate launching mode, be used as an ECM torpedo. I don't recall off the top of my head whether it always has that capability or whether it acquires it at a certain date. But it does allow you, when the capability is available, to temporarily boost your ECM, as an alternative to launching it as a pseudo-plasma torpedo.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, August 19, 2021 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Cloak not Cloak. Some ships are fantastic under cloak. Others are abysmal. Look at how fast your ship can move under cloak. With weapons armed and while arming them.

The KR cloak cost is very high and does not do well under cloak. The Sparrow Hawk LC and Skyhawk DD or under the Fantastic level. A WE is a good cloak ship and needs to be. The KE is the most effective cloaking CA. (my opinion)

Some Gorns love to load up a Enveloping Torp. If you cloak at long range the torp must be fired. At what .

You can cloak with some ships on the approach. This stops long range snipping of your ships. Speed under cloak while holding is in play here. Can put you in a advantages position to uncloak and launch. Love the Skyhawk DDs for this fast fast fast under cloak... and can recloak and run.
Even a WE can move well under cloak.

Then there is cloaking to evade and take less damage. This is harder and most be thought out. Some ships just can not cloak move and reload. Like a SNIPE. Again the Sparrow Hawks and Skyhawks are great for this as well as the old BHs. The WE and King Eagle with there solid shields and armor can cloak and turtle up to reload and still move at a ok speed. That single big torp costs only 2 to start reloading.

Just my thoughts any one else I can sure poke holes in my thinking

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Friday, August 20, 2021 - 09:05 am: Edit

Best speed for the KR while cloaked and arming plasma is speed 10.

Depending on range to the enemy you may need to apply ECM in order to break lock-on, which further reduces speed. Batteries may come in handy here.

I'm convinced now that in a cage match (closed single map) the KR must use its cloak in order even the battle against the Gorn.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 20, 2021 - 11:15 am: Edit

What a G torp launcher does best is arm "TWO TURN F torps."

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, August 23, 2021 - 10:32 pm: Edit

I have a question for other players about hidden movement. I don't know exactly when the rule was added, but the current rule suggests spotting the other side 33% when using hidden movement (though it acknowledges that this is a guideline that may need to be adjusted based on other factors). Do you find that warranted? My playing group traditionally plays the Romulans straight up without things seeming unbalanced. Do others find the spot necessary to even things up?

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Tuesday, August 24, 2021 - 09:01 am: Edit

I played in a few games with hidden movement for cloaked ships back in the 90s. I would definitely say that the Romulan ships were much more effective than with a standard cloak. So some kind of BPV boost might be in order.

It was also much more bookkeeping, with all the mini-maps and consultation between players on the Romulan fleet.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Tuesday, August 24, 2021 - 10:00 am: Edit

I agree with the BPV boost. Those values are not balanced with hidden movement in mind.

Bookkeeping is a big thing but I'd almost want to have a judge there. Not out of mistrust but just because there's a lot to fiddle with. At a bare minimum how do you lay a hidden t-bomb to flash the cloaker? you don't know where they are and they don't know where your mine is so they could roll right over it. Sure, you could just say "no hidden mines" but then you're giving the Romulans a massive stealth advantage and taking one away from the opponent.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 12:20 pm: Edit

I've experienced Romulan hidden movement as well. One needs a dedicated Game Master overseeing things. I soon learned that a cloaked ship needs to roll a 1 on a d6 to trigger a mine, in this case a hidden one.

Well, it added hours to complete one turn. As it was my turn to be that Game Master - I got a lot of notes from the Romulan player concerning movement. And of course notes from everyone about their hidden mine placement.

Fotunately I had maps in plastic, a grease pencil to keep track of Romulan movement and everyone's hidden mine placement, and paper for details of mine triggering criteria. Imagine the excitement when a cloaked Romulan was exposed. The bored Klingon commanders fired medium and long range disruptors at the exposed Romulan.

Let us not forget that hidden Romulan mines exploded as well.

It was a lot of bookkeeping.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 12:56 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I've experienced Romulan hidden movement as well. One needs a dedicated Game Master overseeing things. I soon learned that a cloaked ship needs to roll a 1 on a d6 to trigger a mine, in this case a hidden one.

Well, it added hours to complete one turn. As it was my turn to be that Game Master - I got a lot of notes from the Romulan player concerning movement. And of course notes from everyone about their hidden mine placement.

Fotunately I had maps in plastic, a grease pencil to keep track of Romulan movement and everyone's hidden mine placement, and paper for details of mine triggering criteria. Imagine the excitement when a cloaked Romulan was exposed. The bored Klingon commanders fired medium and long range disruptors at the exposed Romulan.

Let us not forget that hidden Romulan mines exploded as well.

It was a lot of bookkeeping.

---

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 06:12 pm: Edit

We found that using two maps with a screen between them greatly reduced record keeping and kept the game moving. The map used by the Romulan player would have all the ships on it; the map used by the opposing player would have the non-cloaked Romulan ships and the opposing ships. Each player would then tell the other player how they moved their ships so that the other player could move the counters on their map. You have to trust the other player, but that's true of many board games (Midway, Bismarck, etc.) in which you are trying to locate an opponent.

It doesn't solve the issue with hidden placement of t-bombs, but it eliminated having to track the movement of the cloaked ships separately. We found that using two maps kept the match at almost the same pace as a regular scenario. However, that would probably change if you tried a very large one.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 06:15 pm: Edit

I'm a big fan of hidden t-bombs. You'd have to put a gun to my head for me to use hidden movement.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Hidden Movement is much like plotted movement, in that you both have to plot without having the knowledge of the other. One time we used hidden movement, but the twist was the Romulan could not see our movement while he was cloaked.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Plotted movement, that is good fun.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 06:16 pm: Edit

I like plotted movement. However it takes a bit away from the game. Those small decisions that are made on a impulse. Not what you planned at all..but get you on that down shield.

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Saturday, January 21, 2023 - 05:06 pm: Edit

I have no real problem with the 33% extra for hidden movement but when you compare of a cloak on a cruiser to one with a SFG, one of the two should change. As the cloak can be taken out by hit and run raids or just not installed I think the cost to have a cloak on a cruiser a bit high.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 06:14 am: Edit

Bob, can you elaborate on what you mean? The BPV of cloak is built in to (almost) all Romulan ships, so not sure what you mean with, "... or just not installed."

I assume you are referring to the 33% surcharge for _hidden_ cloak which of course is fully optional (and the 33% figure just an approximation).

I'm also not really sure what you're comparing when you refer to "...cloak on a cruiser to one with a SFG."

Cloak is included on Romulan cruisers, and SFGs are also included on the Klingon ships that have them, and no one uses hidden cloak except as an experimental playstyle.

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 10:43 am: Edit

Sure, I know the BPV is already added to Romulan ships but if that item (the cloak) can be taken out by any means then 15% of your BPV is too high.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 11:16 am: Edit

I mean, the extensive history of the game and the balance of the BPV system would disagree with you.

Most systems on a ship can be taken out by hit and run raids, and also appear on the DAC. The cloaking device doesn't appear on the DAC, and can be assigned a guard, and hit and runs can only be performed when both ships have a down shield facing. This makes the cloaking device one of the hardest systems on any ship to be destroyed.

And, if you are in a situation where you have a down shield, are not cloaked, and have enough damage to weapons such that your opponent can afford to lower a shield facing you to perform a hit and run on your cloak, your ship is probably in a bad enough state where it honestly doesn't matter that much anyway.

If you play enough Romulans, eventually sure someone will get a lucky hit and run off in an edge case where it's still useful to you, so I get that can be frustrating and might make you want to vent, but the cloaking device is _way too powerful_ of a tool to be any less of a cost. By having it not be on the DAC protects it well enough.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 01:53 pm: Edit

I'm going to mostly agree with Jamey Johnston here, with the caveat that the actual value of a cloak is very scenario-dependent. In some tactical situations a cloak may not do much for the Romulans, while in others it may be tremendously useful.

Of course, the same could be said for lots of types of systems in SFB.