Hey Dana,

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Quote:

I disagree that plasma ships can always guarantee a 2pt shift.

I can put 12 ECCM on my C7 with 6 loaned from D6D. CCH with support can counter that with ship ECM, loaned ECM (scout and ECM plasma) and if needed EM. The little ships can't. They could EM and that is efficient for them but undamaged C7 can fly at 26 with 8 disr, 4 housekeeping and 6 ECM. With 7 batt, I can fly faster and adjust ECCM as needed at time of fire. The gorn scout can't protect all ships and they can't fly fast to stay at range, EM and generate enough ECM to get a 2 pt shift. If they want to WW and stop moving, I'm ok with that.

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Quote:

I'm enjoying this though, I'd be happy for test battles later.

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By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 24, 2025 - 07:34 am: Edit

Just in terms of map size, so far, I think our entire battle has taken place on the West half of the map; Other than the Klingons moving in from the East, I don't think either of us have ever recrossed the mid line of the map (I have been slowly pushed West by drones the whole game), except maybe the regrouping E4s, but if they did, it was only by a few hexes, and largely irrelevant to the large picture (i.e. if the map ended, they just would have gone somewhere else)

The Klingons did some amount of turning off and running from enveloped plasma, but not much, and largely have been just pressing forward through launched plasmas.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Monday, February 24, 2025 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Seltorian vs. Federation Game Update

We played for 3 to 3 1/2 hours on Sunday Feb 23rd.
Completed 4 turns.

Seltorian FF is lost around 1/2 weapons after a range 30 shot of 20 prox photon where 10 hit. (Note: I screwed up and allowed him to get to range 30 of the frigate without increasing ECM or using EM)

Federation has a damaged DD with one Photon torp destroyed and a few phasers.

Seltorian has been flying around the board at between speed 14 and 24 and the Federation player has been flying around the board at speed 0 to 12. (Note: The speed 0 was for 4 impulses to TAC towards me and then changed speed to 8)

Federation player has been using 6 points for ECM or ECCM depending upon the turn with turn 4 being EW of 1 ECM and 3 ECCM.

Closest approach was range 9.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 25, 2025 - 08:04 am: Edit

Paul,

So you got SEL 2xCA, 2xDD; your opponent has the FED 5xDD+, yeah?

So it looks like the DD+'s are all slow and full of EW (as one might expect); the Seltorians don't have any EW support (except maybe an MRS or sensor drogue), so will only be able to force a shift on the photons by being cagey.

It looks like this is the game that is most likely to go fast--no one has any seeking weapons!

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, February 25, 2025 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Folks I have a problem. The ship I have been working on is leaving the yard. I am being moved to a new ship. This ship has a tight schedule. 10-hour days and maybe weekends as well.

Metal Dog has been sick. We have not progressed far in our battle. I am going to see how this plays out. I might be looking for someone to help run my side.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, February 25, 2025 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Hey Gregory,

Thanks for the info on your new schedule, sounds rough. Let us know how you intend to manage this. It might be good to get a private email from you with an explanation of how the battle has proceeded so far, and what your strategy has been, and what your plan is to win. I can help to find a possible alternate player.

Justin,

How is your health? You were also sick in our Sapphire 18 scheduling. Hope you are OK, and can find time for SFB. But if not, its OK. Can you continue, or should we consider an alternate, or indeed make other arrangements?

This remains our schedule:

* First round scheduled to start Feb 10th
* First round scheduled to end Mar 10th
* First round max extension is Mar 24th
* Any game going past Mar 24th will be adjudicated per the rules.

So, we've got just under one month to finish the first round!

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Thursday, February 27, 2025 - 01:31 pm: Edit

I have had a rough month, sick again, prob covid or rsv, feeling better this week. I do not think finishing on time will be an issue, I am sure Greg and I can find time before the end of the round to finish our match.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, February 27, 2025 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I had the flu in January. Whatever variation it is was not covered by the current flu shot. I had a fever for two days. But the congestion after that was awful. I went thru my NyQuil bottles and half of the replacement bottles over the next three weeks.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 07:47 am: Edit

1.1. bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

Got through impulse 16 of T6.

At the start of T6, the GRN are 13 hexes from the West wall and 13 hexes from the South wall (the BDS is 2 hexes from the West wall), all facing F. The D6D (down #6, 23 internals) is 5 hexes from the GRN warships in direction B, facing E. The C7 (down #1, ~20 interanls) is 8 hexes from the GRN warships, direction A, facing E. There are 13 drones on the map, 7 of them inside of R5. Both E4s (both lightly crippled) are 22 hexes to the NE.

T6: GRN start out with CCH and HD moving 30, BD moving 28, and BDS moving 21. KLI have the C7 moving 24, D6D moving 12, and the crippled E4's moving 21.

At the start of the turn, the CCH launches a regular enveloped S torp and then both it and the HD immediately turn dir E (i.e. away from the KLI), the BD continues moving F. A t-bomb is transported out by the BD (through #5 shield) to take out a stack of 4 drones in a few impulses. The BDS immediately drops 6 offensive ECM on the C7 (as on impulse 1, it could have potentially taken long range phaser shots through the HD's down #2), and then makes 6 attempts to whack drones with the other two sensors, but doesn't roll real hot, killing 2 drones, and failing to take out the C7's ECM drone twice. The enveloped S torp quickly catches up to the speed 12 D6D and hits for 57 damage (after getting shot by a couple P3s) which does 8 more internals through the D6D's down #6 and a point of likely battery general reinforcement. The damage hits a couple P2s, a recently fired drone rack, a couple power, and some fluff.

It soon becomes apparent that the BD has been sent on a suicide run, er, screening action towards the C7. It closes on the C7's down #1. By the time it gets to R5, the C7 is up to 11 ECM (ECM drone, some self generated, some loaned by the D6D). It takes a shot anyway with a cycled P1 and a carronade, rolls ok and does 5 in through a +3 shift. The first 5 internals are bananas, hitting a disruptor, a P1, 2ximpulse and a battery. The C7 slows down to 12 and turns an up shield at the BD, so it HETs in and closes. Over the next few impulses it gets another few shots (P1 and carronade #2 for 6 in; a P1 and P3 at R1 for another 7 in), all told scoring another 18 internals, hitting a couple disruptors, a couple P1s, some power, but not a single drone rack. In return, the BD is shot by a few phasers (Dana rolls bad and has +2 shift from the offensive ECM) on a shield which is hit by a heavy drone (8 internals) and then fired through by another few P1s and an OL (again, bad dice, so the OL misses and the phasers do minimal damage of 9 points) but they get the tractor holding a drone, which gets another type I in the down shield (12 more in) after the BD slows down to 15. The BD also takes at least one more drone on a flank shield, but that stays up. After the smoke clears and ships separate a bit, the BD is probably crippled (about 30 in?) but still can move and it flies past the C7 and gets mostly clear, but the two crippled E4s are closing in.

Meanwhile the CCH and HD are just moving straight towards the SW corner of the map, pursed by drones. CCH, HD, and BDS all slow down to 15 on impulse 8 for 9. The D6D slowly follows at 12, using a tractor and some P3s to deal with a couple A-GAS shuttles the BD launched before HETting into combat. The GRN take out 4 drones with a t-bomb, another 4 drones with another t-bomb later on, shoot down a couple drones that got close. The D6D deploys its seeking weapon drogue which has been reloaded. The CCH launches a speed 10 A-MRS. It starts launching pairs of drones (4 of 6 by the time we pause). Impulse 16, the CCH and HD slow down to 7, the BD and BDS are still moving 15.

We save here. The GRN CCH, HD (speed 7, facing E), and BDS (speed 15, facing D) are all near the SW corner of the map with little room to maneuver--maybe 2 or 3 hexes from the West wall and 5 or 6 hexes from the South wall. The two KLI cruisers (speed 12) are both about a dozen hexes NE from the GRN facing D or E. There are about 9 drones on the map, but mostly 8+ hexes away. The BD is a dozen hexes North of the other GRN ships, speed 15, facing A, and the speed 21, crippled E4s are inside of R8 of the BD to the NE, but also probably don't have many guns armed.

I'm pretty sure that the KLI cruisers have fired every possible direct fire weapon this turn, but they still might have a couple unfired drone racks.

It took us a full 3 hours to play these 16 impulses, including EA and looking up some rules we didn't know (things about drogues). I also kept forgetting that I had dropped 6 offensive ECM on the C7 and being confused by how much damage the C7 was doing.

We'll probably pick up again this weekend some time.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 08:21 am: Edit

I'm loving every minute of these reports. Every single minute.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 10:47 am: Edit

With the Gorn having plenty of WWs left, even though they're cornered, I'm not sure a crippled Klingon fleet will be able to pull a victory out of this - but good luck to both players!

I also enjoy the write-ups, especially since I don't have time for SFB for the foreseeable short-term future.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Cool, two carronade attacks. A reloaded drone drogue. This match has everything.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 09:46 pm: Edit

I felt like the start of this turn didn't go the way I wanted. I'm not ready to give up yet, but it's looking rough, we'll continue the turn tomorrow morning.

Ted, up to now, I haven't worried about the gorn weaseling. If they wanted to stop to dump drones, I would have switched to trying to time my run with range 8 OLs and phasers. Now I've lost enough phasers and disr off the C7 that it wouldn't work as well.

Yes, the C7/D6D are empty for direct weapons, but between the drogue and racks still have 5 drones to launch. There are 9 drones on the board, 1 can get to the corner hex before imp 32, so he has to deal with that. Two more would end at range 1, so he'd have to deal with them as well. The other 6 + 5 potential will end between 1 and 8 hexes from the corner, assuming his ships are willing to end their turn in the corner hex. Unfortunately I don't think the CCH has fired any phasers yet this turn.

I think his HD is out of t-bombs, his CCH has used 2 of 4, the BDS has 2 of 2 as previously it's been out of position to use any. The BDD on it's own has 1 left.

By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Friday, February 28, 2025 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Completed Turn 6 in the Federation v Lyran game. We are down to 4 hours for the turn.

Lyran have been able to keep the range open against the Feds ladened with overloads. They are finally cornered and will have to face the Federation crunch in turn 7. The three Fed shooters each have a crippled shield (CS 5 boxes left on the #1, CLC has 4 boxes left on #2 and the DW #6 is down. No internals yet. Lyran scout has 7 boxes left on the #4. First ESG is just about to come up with 4 drones inbound. Ships are at Range 11-13 oriented towards each other. The feds formation a little loose due to varied shield damage.

Next session is scheduled for Tuesday.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 01, 2025 - 09:15 am: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

Finished T6.

On impulse 16 (where we paused), The GRN CCH, HD (speed 7, facing E), and BDS (speed 15, facing D) are all near the SW corner of the map with little room to maneuver--maybe 2 or 3 hexes from the West wall and 5 or 6 hexes from the South wall. The two KLI cruisers (speed 12) are both about a dozen hexes NE from the GRN facing D or E. There are about 9 drones on the map, but mostly 8+ hexes away. The BD is a dozen hexes North of the other GRN ships, speed 15, facing A, and the speed 21, crippled E4s are inside of R8 of the BD to the NE, but also probably don't have many guns armed.

The two GRN cruisers just slowed down to 7. There are a lot of drones on the map moving towards the GRN in the map corner. The BDS is crippled and just trying to get away. More drones are launched. 3 of them are pointing at the BD limping away. Eventually, it becomes apparent that most of the drones moving SW are targeted on the GRN BDS (which is the ship that *didn't* plot an eventual decel to 4...), so it hits the emergency decel button and skids to a halt on impulse 26. The GRN MRS shoots down a drone, the GRN cruisers shoot down a couple stray drones, one unidentified drone (as I'm out of labs to use) gets to R2 from the cruisers, a P1 hits it for 5, it survives, gets to R1, I fire a couple P3s at it (in case it is armored), but it fires a P2 back at the CCH, scoring 4 damage to the CCH #5 and then self destructs. Wah wah.

Up in the North, the crippled BD manages to kill the 3 pursuing drones with it's last t-bomb, one of the crippled E4's overtakes it and fires 3xP3 into a down sheild, scoring 9 more internals through an ECM shift (from a recently launched new ECP), but by the end of the turn, the E4s are a few hexes away from the BD.

Meanwhile, the Klingons, sensing defeat if the press on, turn off. Both cruisers eventually speed back up to 20/24 and move off in another direction. The D6D has an A-GAS in tractor, which shot a P3 at the D6D ECM drone at some point, but only did 3 damage.

The BDS kicks out a weasel which gets 6 or 7 drones with no collateral, and leaves AFC off, just in case the two other drones left on the map are still targeted on it.

At the end of the turn, the GRN HD gets a P3 fixed, the Klingons get a bunch of repairs, including some shield boxes here and there, a fixed R10 disruptor on the C7, some P3s on the D6D, and an APR on an E4.

The GRN CCH and HD are still deep in the SW corner of the map, facing C, speed 4. The BDS is a few hexes away, speed 0, under decel restrictions till impulse 10 of T7. The crippled BD is about 23 hexes North of the other GRN, 8 hexes from the E wall, with an ECP protecting it. The two crippled E4s are both inside of R5 from the BD, but not facing it. The C7 and D6D are both facing B, moving speed 20-24, and about 20 hexes to the NE. There are 2 drones left on the map (plus ECM drones), inside R8 from the GRN ships in the corner.

The C7 has about 30 internals, down 7 power, 2 disruptors, 4P1, all its batteries. a 1 box #1.

The D6D has about 30 internals, down 8 power, most batteries, 2 drone racks, a special sensor, 1 box #6.

The 2E4s continue to be crippled.

The GRN CCH is largely undamaged still; it has a 14 box #5 but no other damage.

The GRN HD has a down #2, a scuffed #5, down a warp and a hull, having just fixed a P3.

The GRN BDS is undamaged, but stopped and used a weasel.

The GRN BD is very crippled, has a down #6, and 8 total power.

Seems likely the next couple turns will be very fast, as the Klingons just run across the map to repair things and reload drone racks.

To be continued in the near future. This half a turn took a little over an hour.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 01, 2025 - 09:18 am: Edit

Dana wrote:
>>I felt like the start of this turn didn't go the way I wanted.>>

I felt ok about how it went on my end--I was hoping you'd figure I'd stop/slow and weasel T6, so I planned to go real fast for a few impulses, assuming you are going to be 12 most of the time (for drogues), to get some space and t-bomb some drones, while the BD ran up to mess up the C7 as best as possible. The ECM worked against me, but my plan worked about as well as I could have hoped, and the BD isn't even dead yet!

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Saturday, March 01, 2025 - 09:36 am: Edit

Finished turn 6 in Gorn vs Klingon

Gorn moved to SW corner, CCH and HD slowed down to speed 4. CCH launched an MRS, they killed another drone and shot a second at range 2 which lived to get to range 1 where it revealed itself as a swordfish and got 4 pts damage on the CCH weak shield. Not that it will likely matter. Swordfish are actually getting me some damage, he can't lab every drone, especially not at range 3+. Without knowing it's a type IV-swordfish it's tough to waste phasers potentially overkilling a type I-xF at range 2, and when it hits range 1 he ends up overkilling it but it doesn't matter.

7 drones turned to track BDS scout which was moving a little faster than CCH/HD and got in front and unsupported. BDS emerg deceled near end of turn and weaseled drones.

D6D finished launching drogue drones at BDS by imp 17, which forced the weasel, landed drogue, and launched last 3 rack drones at BDD which used t-bomb to get them. However it had to keep moving towards E4's and not turn off to make sure the drones didn't sneak around the t-bomb. So the one E4 with 3 phasers left got an overrun shooting all phasers backwards into the down #6 shield. Unfortunately only had power stored up to shoot 3 ph-3 and not ph-2's. Did 9 internals which was a ph-1, a trans, and 7 power. So I think the BDD is now mission killed. It's stil got a pl-g, pl-f, 1-ph-1 and 1-ph-3, but only 9 power and not much else. The BDD is 7 hexes from disengaging off map edge, while it's still got a pl-g, the C7 could wander over and casually finish it so I expect it will leave before that happens. It's too far away from the other gorn ships for support next turn.

About the last 8 impulses both C7 and D6D sped up to 24/20 respectively from speed 12. They both turned off left away from Gorn ships in the corner. Too many internals on them both to go park next to a almost untouched CCH and barely touched HDD. Also, their drone racks are getting pretty empty.

However, I'm now feeling optimistic about the game, especially after he dropped to speed 4 and decel'd with the BDS. I'm currently 20 hexes away from his ships and next turn he can only go speed 14 (and 10 for BDS). So I can go speed 12 to 15 depending on energy, and both C7/D6D can start EDR and shield repair plus reloading all racks. I'll pick up my inert SP shuttles on the way past next turn and start reloading them.

The gorns now need to get into a stern chase on me while I run for the far corner. I think I have 3 turns of repair, maybe 4 (although not 12 pts of EDR each turn, I'l have to speed up so switch back to CDR). So I'll get my racks, drone drogue, and maybe SP's mostly reloaded. Hopefully fix a few power on C7, and disr and ph-1, unfortunately, all batts are gone and I probably won't get thm back.

So when we start fighting again he'll have an unhurt CCH (I imagine it can fix it's damaged shield while chasing). An HDD with a weak #2 shield. An untouched BDS. And he's short t-bombs. And he'll be down his BDD, so his drone defense is reduced plus lost a G-torp. I'll have most of my drone launch capability back. My C7 will still have 25 to 30 internals, but I'll probably fix enough front shield to take 10 pts enveloper damage. The D6D will still have 20 to 25 internals, but I should also repair it's weak shield to at least stop long range ph shots. E4's will likely fix a couple boxes which will actually uncripple them (they are each at 51% or so damage so fixing 1 or 2 boxes helps)

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, March 03, 2025 - 10:08 am: Edit

Wow, great battle, I appreciate the details reported! I'll try to summarize these details in a document along with turn durations for later discussions.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 03, 2025 - 07:48 pm: Edit

1.1 bakija (GRN) vs madman (KLI)

Got through T7.

Start of turn, the GRN CCH and HD are still deep in the SW corner of the map, facing C, speed 4. The BDS is a few hexes away, speed 0, under decel restrictions till impulse 10 of T7. The crippled BD is about 23 hexes North of the other GRN, 8 hexes from the E wall, with an ECP protecting it. The two crippled E4s are both inside of R5 from the BD, but not facing it. The C7 and D6D are both facing B, moving speed 20-24, and about 20 hexes to the NE. There are 2 drones left on the map (plus ECM drones), inside R8 from the GRN ships in the corner.

T7: GRN cruisers move 14 all turn; BDS moves 0 till 10 when it can speed up to 10 and does. Crippled BD moves 15/7. KLI cruisers move 12 all turn. E4s move some combination of 27/26/15.

There are 2 drones left on the map which close in on the GRN cruisers. One is killed by a couple P3s from the GRN MRS, the other is IDed (with 4 labs...) as a type I and killed by a P1. The GRN turn out of the corner and start following the KLI. The GRN MRS does a 10/9/10 plot for 11 moves to keep up with the speed 14 ships. The very crippled BD moves speed 15 towards the W map edge, and by mid turn, disengages off the map.

The Klingons just move in direction B all turn and kill one GRN GAS shuttle on the map early in the turn with 3 phasers. The C7 eventually tractors and possibly lands a depeleted SP shuttle on the map (we aren't sure if it was a D6D shuttle or a C7 shuttle, and aren't currently sure if you can load a shuttle that wasn't originally yours as a SP, but we'll figure it out before next session). Nothing else happens this turn, till the end of the turn when the HD fixes a shield box, the Klingons fix shield boxes, and both cruisers used 12 power and a 4 damcon box to EDR 4 boxes--D6D successfully fixes 2 warp engines; C7 successfully fixes 2 warp and a disruptor.

At the end of the turn, the GRN are in the SW corner of the map still, facing B; BDS is 8 hexes behind the other two ships. GRN have an MRS on the map.

C7 and D6D are about 20 hexes to the NE of the GRN, facing B also. The E4s are 30+ hexes away from the GRN ships.

This turn took us about an hour, including EA and a lot of record keeping, but other than a couple drones being shot down, not much happened.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, March 04, 2025 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Thanks for the report. Per the question about the C7 recovering a used-scatterpack that was originally launched from the D6D, or vice-versa ...

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Quote:

(FD7.4151) If recovered by a friendly ship, it can be used for any mission suitable to its type subject to (J3.16).

(J3.16) ORIGINAL SHUTTLES ONLY: All ships can only use their originally assigned shuttles as WWs, not shuttles from other ships or captured enemy shuttles. Bases are under the additional restriction that WWs launched from ships docked to the base will not distract weapons aimed at the base. A WW launched by one of two docked ships (C13.947) would protect both.

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By David Hanson (Glimaash) on Tuesday, March 04, 2025 - 11:08 pm: Edit

The Lyran-Federation battle is complete. The Federation resigned.

Turn 6 was the turn of decision. The turn started with a blizzard of EW. the Lyran shooters outfront had 10 ECM and the scount lent 6 OEW to the CLC. The best he could muster 6 eccm and was facing a plus 2 shot. The CS made was able to get 10 ECCM and fired his 4 overloaded photons and was cursed with only 1 hit. He had added poor rolls on P1 shots (4456) and failed to punch through the HCM's shield. Both cruisers turned way with the CLC declining to fire. The Lyran were ready and increase speed in pursuit.

Meanwhile to Federation DW, who had to turned away last turn due to shield damage slipped to range 8 of the scout and fired everything he could. Only 1 of the 3 torps hit and all 5's and 6's on P1's. He failed to penetrate the scouts shields.

The destroyer had to turn the opposite way as the cruiser so the Federation force was now split. The two 2 bobcats broke to push the DWS away while the 2 Lyran cruisers chased.

In light of the tactical situation we talked out where the turn was going to end. It was determined that the Lyrans would cut the range down to 5 in pursuit and would land 16 P1's and 8 disruptors (average of 72 points) on the CLC rear shield. This would give his 45ish internals and the Lyran's would be in position to deliver another volley in 7.1. The Federation decided to resign as it would be 2 turns before photons were rearmed.

In the postmortem it was discovered the clint Lyran HCM is not correct. Both side agreed it did not swing the outcome (that was really determined by the rolls). We will get them fix for next time.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, March 05, 2025 - 01:15 am: Edit

Actually yes I did resign, but that was because of the missed die rolls, at the same time the problem with the ship was that it had an extra 4 warp engines worth 5 movement points, which would have effected weapons reloads and pursuit speed for the 3 turns I was chasing him across the board. But there was no real way to correct something that neither player had any knowledge of.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Wednesday, March 05, 2025 - 04:29 am: Edit

Congratulations Dave, Condolences Ed,

It sounds like a fun game, hope you both enjoyed it.

I guess I'm not quite sure about the "clint" for the Lyran HCM. Are we talking move cost, or actually the SSD has 4 extra warp engine boxes?

The Lyrans win the day, and advance, but I'd also like to compute VP. Sounds like the CLC would be crippled, if not destroyed, while the CS and DWS might disengage? Any ships/PFs damaged to crippled status on the Lyran side? How about shuttles destroyed on both sides?

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, March 05, 2025 - 08:22 am: Edit

I just checked the Lyran HCW [there is no HCM]
It does indeed have 2 extra center warp engines, an SSD error.

I will mention this to the powers that be for correction.

Cheers
Frank

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, March 05, 2025 - 09:25 am: Edit

4 extra engines the SSD in SFBOL shows 7 on each center Warp, the SSD in R12 shows 5 on each engine. The SSD in CLog 30 shows 6 on each, I believe the R12 to be the correct one. Talking 4 extra engines, mvt cost seems correct.