What happened in game 1.4 (SEL vs FED)? I saw some updates, but didn't see that the game ended.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 10:56 am: Edit

With ESGs there is a sort of vague rule in play here:

(G23.52) MULTIPLE TARGETS

[point 5]: "within size classes, use movement cost or other size indicators, such as heavy shuttles and two space drones; roll a die to resolve ties)."

So it is unclear if "10 damage points vs 8 damage points" falls under "other size indicators" (but double sized shuttles are clearly bigger than single size shuttles, and heavy drones are clearly bigger than standard drones, which are clearly bigger than dogfight drones). But at least there is a clear indicator of what to do in case of ambiguity--randomly decide (i.e. neither player chooses what happens in the case of a tie/ambiguity; it is a random distribution, point by point).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 11:04 am: Edit

I don't think you can conclude that more hitpoints equates to larger size for shuttles. For example, the F-14 and F-15 are both listed as size "1+" while the A-10, which has more hitpoints than either of them, is only size "1". Similarly the F-111 is listed as size "2+" while the A-20 (same number of hitpoints as the F-111) is size "2".

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 11:11 am: Edit

Peter,

Even if the enemy is maintaining long range, you can use plasma carronades to augment drone defense. You can fire each one every turn and kill a standard Type-I on a dice roll of 1-4. On a 5 or 6 the carronade will still do 3 damage, meaning you can kill the drone with a phaser-3 on a subsequent impulse.

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 11:16 am: Edit

Justin,
Shuttles and fighters are same SC but within a group, the smaller unit takes the hit.
So 2 SC 3 ships with 1 being a MC and the other a MC .667, the smaller ship [MC .667 ship] takes the extra point.
I suspect it is the same for shuttles/fighters.

Shuttles take 6 points to blow and a fighter taking more than 6 would get hit 2nd.

Cheers
Frank

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 12:23 pm: Edit

I think it would be random die roll as peter said, cant really say a shuttle is smaller than a ftr and take that as fact. Prob best to randomly determine the remaining points.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Also, 638% victory margin with a captured BH+ gives me a serious dopamine hit.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 12:40 pm: Edit

>>Even if the enemy is maintaining long range, you can use plasma carronades to augment drone defense.>>

Yes. That is true. But as a 1 turn carronade isn't any more reliable than a P3, and it is costing 1 power (instead of .5 power), and giving up the longer term advantage of an actual F torp, this is generally best used in a pinch, rather than as a regular plan.

Like, one of the big issues with All The Drones is that it takes up a lot of firepower that isn't being shot at an opponent. Using all the P1's to shoot down drones is bad enough. If you are also always using the F tubes to shoot down drones, you are firing even less at the enemy.

Like, in this game, I wasn't hit by drones (well, the BDS was tractored and hit by 2 heavy drones and exploded, but that was 'cause I was stupid); the only drone that hit a ship otherwise only hit a ship 'cause I did, indeed, fire a carronade at it (as I was in a pinch), hit it for 4, it lived, and then my other ship shot it from R8 with 2xP1, where it had a 93% chance of doing the 2 or more damage needed to kill that drone. And I rolled a 5, 6 and failed. That was basically the only drone hit that got through. But the drones suck up firepower, push you around the map, make you weasel, and just keep coming. Shooting down 2-4 extra drones a turn in exchange for never having F torps armed *could* be helpful in the long run, but probably won't be.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Blowing up ships is another way to manage the drone threat. I suspect mangling those escorts didn't gain you much in that regard. The D6D otoh...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I was trying real hard to get that D6D. The problem was all the drones in the way...

The E4's ended up being crippled as, well, they put themselves in a place to get crippled (intentionally, I suppose). At which point, you got the choice of crippling the thing you can cripple, as it take minimal resources (as it is a garbage E4), or not, and then those E4's are up in your face not being shot, and doing damage from close range.

Heck, as noted, if I had done, like, 3 more damage to one of the E4's (and it exploded), I would have forced a draw scenario.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Peter,

I believe it's incorrect to think of a carronade as being just a phaser-3 except that it costs 1 point of power. That's a good comparison if the carronade holds fire until point blank range. But since it suffers no damage reduction due to range, you can fire it at range-4 or 5, in which case it is basically a phaser-1; fires every turn for one point of power and virtually identical expected damage. But if you fire that phaser-1 at an incoming drone four or five hexes out, you lose damage compared to holding fire until short range. And if you wait till short range, an incoming fast drone might impact next impulse, giving you no chance for a follow-up shot unless your ship has Aegis. With the carronade, you fire at five hexes (or four if your movement and the drone's "jumps" the range from six to four), and you still have time to follow up with another shot if the carronade didn't kill the drone. Hardly a complete solution, but it does offer a bit more flexibility in drone defense, I think.

I'm also curious whether you considered the Gorn Strike Cruiser imstead of the CCH. It's 161 BPV / 167 with sabot-refit, and is basically the Medium Cruiser with the two Type-S replaced by a single Type-R. It has less tactical flexibility and short range crunch power than a Medium Cruiser, but gains longer range (Type-R sabot) and is more energy efficient. I'm certainly no expert on playing Gorns but if I were to play them in this scenario, I would give the CS with sabot-refit very serious consideration.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 04:39 pm: Edit

To follow up on the plasma-D rack note in my last post:

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It might - or might not - be an issue to allow escort variants for Alpha Octant squadrons in a future iteration of this tournament setup.

Although, I posted a couple of thoughts elsewhere about would-be Gorn fleet support variants, which would have plasma-D racks but no Aegis.

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Even so, under the current tournament setup in this thread, it is possible to take a Gorn heavy battle destroyer, and to install a pair of plasma-D racks - either both with AP arcs, or 1 LPR and 1 RPR - in its RA weapon option mounts. Doing this does not oblige the ship to be configured as a carrier escort; it can still otherwise be deployed as a combat variant.

In principle, a combination of these racks and the base hull's F-torps (used as carronades) could help support a Gorn squadron in the face of incoming drone waves. Until the racks run out, at least.

So, might such a unit have made much of a difference here, at least in the early stage of the battle? Or, might there need to have been a higher concentration of plasma-D racks present, in order for them to have made a meaningful dent in the enemy's drone output?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 23, 2025 - 06:05 pm: Edit

>>I believe it's incorrect to think of a carronade as being just a phaser-3 except that it costs 1 point of power.>>

I mean, yes, certainly. But I think the big issue is "giving up plasma Fs" for "an extra defense phaser"; like, generally speaking, my plasma-F's were reasonably effective (either at hitting things, or forcing an opponent to turn off and run--I crippled an E4 with plasma F's; I started the mangling of the D6D with plasma F's) and the issue was not really "I could be doing things here if I could kill 2-3 more drones per turn".

Like, if shooting down a couple more drones per turn was going to get me an anchor? I'd totally have done that :-)

Like, for your large point, yes, agreed--carronades add flexibility to the drone defense ability of Gorn ships, but it comes at a significant trade off.

>>I'm also curious whether you considered the Gorn Strike Cruiser imstead of the CCH. It's 161 BPV / 167 with sabot-refit, and is basically the Medium Cruiser with the two Type-S replaced by a single Type-R.>>

Oh, certainly. I went through a lot of variations (after coming up with a very solid Kzinti team, and then rejecting it on the grounds that I didn't want to move 30 drones around the map every turn...), but wanted to maximize the number of plasma tubes (I tried *really* hard to get 4-5 plasma S tubes, but it was very difficult given the constraints), and the CCH had the advantage of having a little extra power to help arm the sabot torps.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 12:42 am: Edit

Hey Peter, I hear you on Gorns and this map size.

Gorns did not face many drones in the General War, maybe if they did, they would focus more on carriers or other anti-drone capabilities, as the Romulans did to deal with Federation drones. Roms even had some KR ships, which were non-escorts but had D-racks (KRC/KRL, plus KDR ...). This plus the cloak really helps to avoid the kind of problems with drones that the Gorns experienced.

For playability reasons, we made the use of carriers and PFs restricted in this tournament, and given the 96 impulse range of the typical drone, it seems perfectly matched to this map size. The same cannot be said for plasma, even with sabot. Now, unfortunately, the Romulans never got to launch their R-torps, in the only other plasma engagement in this tournament, so we don't really have the complete picture, but it seems pretty clear to me that some tweaks for balance might be best for future tournaments. Ideally we replicate the good balance of the Module T cruiser tournament.

I'd be happy to run a brief test battle with a smaller map (from 84x60 to 60x42), possibly a small moon or class M planet in the center (which helps offset both drones and plasma), and a starting zone located much closer, so if both sides select, engagement can happen on turn 1. I'm happy to take plasma; Gorns or ISC (maybe even Rom) vs Klingons, Kzinti or even drone-focused Feds.

Other thoughts and comments on balance?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 07:59 am: Edit

Yeah, with the plasma races, the Romulans get to avoid a lot of drone troubles by having cloaks, either as they can cloak to shake a lot of drones while maintaining a generally reasonable speed of 9-10 if at range, or just by having the cloak as a threat, disincentivizing putting a ton of drones on the map in the first place. The ISC aren't vastly better at drone defense than the Gorn are, but they have PPDs which changes the dynamic a lot, and in a pinch, the rear arc plasma-Fs (of which a cruiser has 6...) can make a difference.

Like, I think the Gorn are largely just poorly situated to be in a big generally open space fight against a lot of drones, which we already knew, but I also don't think that sabot plasma (which, again, is certainly fun and cool) and carronades really help this situation much. The answer to this is, well, just don't be the Gorn in a game like this.

So do we know what happened in the end of the SEL vs FED fight?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 10:46 am: Edit

Those dudes don't seem to be very forthcoming, so I'll repeat what I heard. Early on, the Feds surprised the Selts with a long-range proxy strike that hurt a DD. I guess that taught the Selts to adjust their tactics. Ultimately, here's what Rikk (the Fed player) said, at the point of concession:

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Quote:

1 CA and 1 DD pretty much wrecked for the Seltorians
I believe the other 2 had a few boxes of internals I can't remember

1 DD limping along with gas masks and prayers
1 DD serious internals few weapons
1 DD I think this one would be wrecked next turn by fire from the Seltorians
1 DD fairly pristine
1 DD Light internals maybe a few boxes gone

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By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 10:49 am: Edit

For whatever it's worth, I basically concur with Peter's observations about Gorn in this tournament setting.

Well played. I am surprised the Klingons won, though, with all the damage they took early on. Real testament to the effectiveness of zero-energy fast drones.

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 10:59 am: Edit

Suggestion, do not have plasma vs DF empires.
Simply keep it to plasma vs plasma and DF vs DF.

Each player then builds 2 fleets, 1 plasma and 1 DF fleet.
Roll a die and the high roll gets to pick which side to play with.

Cheers
Frank

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Perhaps another option might be to consider how to somewhat reduce the impact of drones in a given tournament setup.

For example: historically, the Klingons first developed drogues in Y178, though they did not reach widespread use by Y180 - the same year that "fast" drones, sabot plasma, and advanced shuttles rolled out across the Alpha Octant.

So, one could adjust the tournament to be set... in Y179.

In which case, one could say that drogues are not in widespread enough use yet for them to be available in the tournament. (Although, this means the Gorns would not be able to deploy plasma-D drogues either.)

Also, there would be no Speed 32 drones, no sabot plasma, and no advanced shuttles.

One could still allow a single "prototype" ship with a YIS date of Y180 or thereabouts to be selected.

(Why a prototype ship, but not a prototype system? Different logistical streams.)

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Personally, I find myself wishing that "fast" drones, sabot plasma, and advanced shuttles were restricted to first-generation X-ships in the Alpha Octant.

But since it's likely a few decades too late in "real life" years for that to happen, it might be somewhat fairer to non-drone-armed Alpha empires in this context to pre-empt the use of "fast" drones, by adjusting the "in-universe" year in which the tournament is set.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:10 pm: Edit

>>I am surprised the Klingons won, though, with all the damage they took early on. Real testament to the effectiveness of zero-energy fast drones.>>

Yeah, like, Dana had a really good plan from the get go, and the C7 is a bananas ship, what with the weapon arcs, power, internal fortitude, 7 batteries, etc. But again, as noted, my two huge errors were:

1) Forgetting that EDR was a thing at all, let alone a thing we were using. As such, my sacrificing my BD to mangle the C7 seemed like a solid plan, and at the point at which the BD was crippled, and the C7 was down, like, 8 power, 3 disruptors, and 4-5 phasers, I thought it was a good trade. But then after a few turns of shield repairs, CDR/EDR and the C7 was basically back to starting condition (having repaired a dozen weapons and power systems), and things started falling down hill.

2) Also as noted, I made a significant error in moving my BDS (i.e. I turned it around at some point to chase off a pursuing crippled E4), which left it too far behind, and then it got caught by the C7, which instantly vaporized it. If I hadn't turned it around and just kept running in the direction it was running, it would have been shot up a little by the E4 (which had, like, a disruptor, maybe a couple P2s, and a drone rack), but likely would have avoided instant C7 death.

Once the Klingons had 3 turns to repair and reload, even once the D6D was crippled, they still had enough drone capacity (7 a turn, plus SP, plus MRS) to make life hard for the two ships I had left, and then once I started taking internals, I wasn't really long for the world. By the end of the game, the C7 had a #1 shield back up to, like, 9 or 10 boxes (damcon of 6, after burning a couple 4's for EDR), which meant it was free to maneuver without worrying about long range sniping.

I suspect if I had avoided getting my BDS vaporized, I probably could have pulled it out.

Dana had a great force, he had an excellent plan, played very well, me taking the Gorn in the first place was likely an error, and then I compounded that by making two other significant errors (see above).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:14 pm: Edit

>>Simply keep it to plasma vs plasma and DF vs DF.>>

The problem with that is, well, plasma vs plasma is incredibly tedious a lot of the time.

The Romulans and ISC, probably, will do just fine against DF races, especially as they were designed from the get go to battle DF races. The ISC have PPDs. The Romulans have cloaking devices. Both of these tend to mitigate a lot of the issues that the Gorn have (vulnerability to drones, the inability to meaningfully damage anyone outside of R10).

The Gorn will do just fine against their historical opponents (Romulans, ISC?), but those games also have the potential to go for 20+ turns.

I mean if the solution here is just "Playing the Gorn in this sort of situation is a bad idea", that's ok.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Regarding Gorn in this tournament setting, I don't think there's a need to handicap them or to forbid Gorn v. D&D battles. I see two viable solutions. Possibly both could be used in combination.

1) Resize the map. Because SFBOL can accommodate any size map, find a map size where the Gorn are capable of forcing the enemy into a corner to deal with plasma.

2) Permit the Gorn (only) an exception to rule S8.0 and allow them to purchase one escort ship, even if there is no carrier in the force. A BDA or a HDA would go a looooong way to help in drone defense. Aegis, extra phasers, and Pl-D in defense mode (in a pinch) can significantly mitigate a drone wave.

My two quatloos.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:22 pm: Edit

>>So, one could adjust the tournament to be set... in Y179. >>

I mean, the original version of this (500 BPV tournament) was set in y175, which means all speed 20 drones and no advanced plasma options (ECP still exists, but it is very difficult to employ as it doesn't get to change speed).

We went y180 here so that everyone would have the opportunity to play all the cool ships and toys, which I totally understand.

Just, as noted above, as I like plasma (well, I like the Gorn), I'd much rather have regular plasma against medium speed drones than advanced plasma against speed 32 drones. But still, that's me.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:23 pm: Edit

>>I don't think there's a need to handicap them or to forbid Gorn v. D&D battles.>>

Oh, I don't think so either. I just think they are a bad idea to play in a game like this. Which is fine. Just don't take them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 24, 2025 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Y175 tends to be the year in which the 550 Battle Groups have been set for recent issues of Captain's Log. But, as you say, this pre-empts the use of such things as HDWs and BCHs in a given Alpha Octant squadron.

Yet, while Y180 does permit most of those things, it might have too much of an overall cost, in terms of how much of an impact "fast" drones in particular have on game play. Although, Y180 also allows the Gorns to take a bunch of sabot-ed plasma-D drogues - so long as they forget about EM, or going faster than Speed 12, while deploying them...

Hence, my thought of going with Y179, with the option of a single "prototype" starship with a slightly later YIS date. This still allows for most Alpha Octant heavy battlecruisers, heavy war destroyers, and other "cool" ships to be deployed, yet might keep the seeking weapon side of things at a somewhat more manageable level.

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On a side note: over in the Captain's Log 550 Battle Groups, Paravian and Carnivon forces from Module C6 have been permitted to enter in recent submission rounds.

Were they also to be allowed here one day, setting the year at Y179 would prevent the Carnivons from taking "fast" death bolts, though whether those would be as problematic as "fast" drones is another matter.

As for the Paravians, there is no "sabot" option for the quantum wave torpedo at present, so there is no change for this weapon either way.

Still, allowing a single "prototype" unit would permit either "lost empire" to deploy either a BCH or an HDW, as those each have a YIS date of Y180.