Heh. F4's. Even better :-)

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Sunday, April 06, 2025 - 01:27 pm: Edit

round 2 feds vs selts going down right moew on SFBOL.

By Justin Royter (Metaldog) on Sunday, April 06, 2025 - 05:01 pm: Edit

game rescheduled for tomorrow having an issue where all the fields on my opponent's ssd are blacked out/ null, just started today. Tired to play another game later in the day, same issue, all my opponenet's SSDs fields, all of them are blacked out/ null. My SSDs are fine... never had this issue until today.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 12:23 am: Edit

Regarding Round 2:
* Paul and Justin are good to go on CO.
* I got Eddie's CO, Dana's are WIP.

Regarding FC, I've played it a bit, I like certain aspects of the rules. But it is not SFB, the tactical environment is different. If someone wants to run an FC tournament, awesome. Maybe they already do, I'm not sure, I'm not really tracking that. I'm interested in SFB, both Module T, and Fleet battles. If someone wants to adapt these Fleet battle rules for FC, go for it.

Personally, I'm with Frank and the guys flying the Kzinti SCS vs the Hydran Monarch ... or other serious fleet battles. It takes a lot of dedication, focus, attention to detail, and time. Thus, the opportunities to do this kind of battle are rare. But it is fun. I'm interested to do more of these battles, but with the latest rules.

So, I see the appeal of constraints ... fixed map, limits on certain ships, limits of BPV, turn limits, etc. Its like the Olympics, there is a marathon, and 100m sprint, and all kinds of races in between.

Regarding the point Jack made, Kzintis vs Gorns ... yes, maybe true, "historically". But Module T provides a mechanism for all ships to play all ships, I don't see why this same concept should apply to these fleet actions. Can Gorns pull off drone defense vs fast drones? Might be tough, indeed, we'll give the

As people said, part of the competition of this 500 BPV fleet action is fleet selection. Peter has expounded on this, Dana has given his opinions. There really has not been enough games to draw too many conclusions yet. If Peter's Gorns vs Frank's Lyrans had faced off, what would have happened? How about Dana's Klingons vs Frank's Lyrans? Maybe waves of fast drones might not be so fearsome.

So, this is my current thinking for Autumn 2025 tournament. I'm definitely going to bifurcate these games / concepts:

1) Evolution of this "build your fleet" tournament. This will feature fewer restrictions (i.e. closer to S8 ... DN/DNL/DNX ok), marginally higher BPV, like 600, still modified Y180 (no X-ships), some terrain, randomly selected from a few choices. It will probably be round robin, with the most VP accumulated (or something similar) will determine the winner, or possibly govern the selection of players for the final battle.

This might have fewer players (?), but it should be fun, for those who have time and inclination to build a force and play some fleet actions.

2) Fixed map, possibly 42x30 or similar, Module T style with barrier, no terrain. Fixed forces, maybe a few by empire to select from, less BPV (350-ish?), some limited CO selection. EW, but no scouts, no MRS. Still Y180, maybe Y177/Y178/Y179/Y180 options, possibly randomly determined.

I hope this style will be faster to play, appeal to more players, and we can get a bracket of 8+, maybe single elimination, or similar with small losers bracket / re-entry process.

Thoughts?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 03:43 am: Edit

Sorry, my post above was a little out of date, Dana has submitted CO, and he and Eddie are scheduling.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 09:50 am: Edit

Geof- Module T has ships balanced across thousands of games. It's going to be nearly impossible to pull off balanced 500 point fleets if they don't already exist.

I am not advocating that a Gorn Fleet can't beat a Klingon or Kzinti fleet with a bunch of fast drones. I watched a good bit of Peter's game. Honestly, I remain amazed that Peter lost considering how it started. He is a great player but in the end he made some choices that got him into trouble. He probably doesn't play games this size very often if ever and I am sure he woulnd't come at it the same way again I bet. My point is, Peter could have won, it was not anywhere near impossible. Maybe a Kzinti fleet with even more drones and control would make it impossible.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 11:48 am: Edit

Hey Jack,

Even though Module T has been played and tweaked for decades and tens of thousands of games, it does not make the task or goal to do something similar with a fleet battle impossible. Only nearly impossible! It is fun to experiment, and I don't think anyone is expecting the same level of balance, just an opportunity to play with a reasonable chance at victory.

Let me ask, if we had some relatively balanced fleets of CW/CWL + DW/DWL + FF/FFL/DD, based on the rules above, would you play in such a tournament?

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Hey Geof - I don't think this is for me without tournament rules being made to figure out how to keep the game times under some sort of logical control.

Your players seem to like things as they are, and I am glad. If you guys are inclined to do something about how long the games are - I will sign up.

Thanks for asking me for my thoughts!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 08, 2025 - 04:15 pm: Edit

So far as the more "compact" format is concerned:

Perhaps one option there could be to still allow a limited degree of force selection - at a reduced BPV, as suggested below - but also to restrict all sides to Size Class 4 ships. (Which, in this instance, would exclude HDWs also.)

Doing this would remove certain weapons or other systems that must be installed on units of Size Class 3 or larger: extended-range disruptor bolts and disruptor cannons; type-S and type-R plasma torpedoes; PPDs; heavy TR beams; and so on and so forth.

It would also limit the range of BPV discrepancies between one Alpha empire's base hulls over others. For example: the ISC have relatively powerful (and expensive) cruisers; by contrast, their "Gunline Group" units are much closer to the Alpha Octant average.

Might this be an idea worth considering here?

-----

As for the more "expansive" event:

I'm not entirely sure about allowing Size Class 2 ships, or about bumping the BPV up to 600.

Not least once a Kzinti drone dreadnought, or a heavy dreadnought, shows up for the party...

Still, it would be interesting to see the Andromedans added to such a tournament one day, and then promptly use the bulk of this BPV allowance to buy a Dominator!

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 04:41 am: Edit

Hey Jack,

---

Quote:

I don't think this is for me without tournament rules being made to figure out how to keep the game times under some sort of logical control. ... If you guys are inclined to do something about how long the games are - I will sign up.

---

---

Quote:

Fixed map, possibly 42x30 or similar, Module T style with barrier, no terrain. Fixed forces, maybe a few by empire to select from, less BPV (350-ish?), some limited CO selection. EW, but no scouts, no MRS. Still Y180, maybe Y177/Y178/Y179/Y180 options, possibly randomly determined.

---

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 04:56 am: Edit

Hey Gary,

I've got your email too, working on a response.

---

Quote:

Perhaps one option there could be to still allow a limited degree of force selection - at a reduced BPV, as suggested below - but also to restrict all sides to Size Class 4 ships. (Which, in this instance, would exclude HDWs also.) ... Might this be an idea worth considering here?

---

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 10:33 am: Edit

Hey Geof - I think your ideas are all steps in the right direction. I hope your current players are happy with these ideas.

I can't think of much else to speed the game up more other than to chop out rules like ECM completely. Removing scouts has got to help with that, some at least, and I know at least some of your players like ECM. Removing scouts is a decent compromise that probably speeds the game up. I also like the idea of trying 2 ships before jumping to 3. It feels less intimidating in about all ways.

Another idea - what about scaling back the other units that provide ECM support. I remember ECM drones. Do MRS shuttles do that? Are there other trinkets around creating ECM overhead that might be reasonably limited in order to speed up gameplay or eliminated that would not put anyone at a huge disadvantage?

Fyi to players - It's more important to me that other players are having fun in these fleet battles. My real fun comes in blowing up Seth in tournament ships as often as possible. This is your space, design what is fun for you, enjoy it!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Before going any further, would it be best to split the current discussion into two, or perhaps even three, separate threads?

As in: to keep this one for reporting on, and providing feedback for, the current 500 BPV tournament; to set up a second one for dialing in a future "expansive" tournament setup; and then to establish a third discussion thread for the "compact" tournament proposal.

Of course, certain data points would no doubt cross over from one thread to another, not least as this round of 500 BPV games continues to be played. Even so, if there is indeed to be a "fork in the road", so to speak, it might be timely to adjust for this sooner rather than later.

Or, it might not be. Still, I thought it worth asking nonetheless.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 12:58 pm: Edit

>>Another idea - what about scaling back the other units that provide ECM support. I remember ECM drones. Do MRS shuttles do that? Are there other trinkets around creating ECM overhead that might be reasonably limited in order to speed up gameplay or eliminated that would not put anyone at a huge disadvantage? >>

-Scouts provide a lot of EW support (and other capabilities, like breaking drone lock ons and identifying seeking weapons). They add a lot of extra calculus to the EW equation, as they can change EW significantly mid-turn (where ship get EW during EA, and other than limited reserve, it stays the same most of the turn).

-ECM drones are constant sources of 3ECM for drone ships.

-ECM Plasma (which uses a pseudo) are constant sources of 3ECM for plasma ships. Pre-y180, they are harder to employ, as they need to be at a fixed speed (ECM drones are always variable speed, but max out at speed 20 pre-y180, so also harder to use). ECM plasma post y180 is very effective (and hard to kill), but generally more limited in number than ECM drones.

-MRS shuttles provide 2ECM, 2ECCM, and then 2 swing points (1+1 or 0+2 or 2+0) to their mothership if within 5 hexes, 8 impulses after launch.

-Sensor Drogues allow the deploying ship to use a few extra power for EW (2, IIRC?). You need to be moving sped 12 to use drogues, so this one seems not that great on first glance.

-Erratic Maneuvering allow smaller ships to get an EW bonus for less energy (6 move energy, which is 2 power on an FF), but they suffer the same penalty.

Like, EW rules are certainly interesting (and also likely important, balance wise, for a lot of parts of the game--I think massed photons are, for example, likely overbalanced when not using EW rules; fighters and PFs are a lot worse when not using EW) and make the game different than without. But they do slow the game down a lot both in play time sense, due to calculation and figuring and having to guess what is going to happen a lot of the time, and a practical sense, 'cause if EW is doing anything it all, it is making ships take less damage (and making them move slower, etc.), which makes games go longer.

I find that EW rules are fun to mess around with once in a while, but generally would rather play in an environment that works without them (which requires other things to make that work, like limiting massed photons, for example), just largely due to the added time element.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 06:07 pm: Edit

EW is really very good, does it slow the game down, only because it brings in a different aspect. I have played for 40+ years and can probably count on my 2 hands the number of times we have not use EW. I think in out last game we took more time computing tractor speed changes and movement than EW changes. So do we do without tractors.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Pseudo speed!!! WHY IS IMPULSE INCLUDED AT ALL!! All I have to say.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, April 09, 2025 - 07:51 pm: Edit

EW...Electronic warfare.

In a lot of cases, it does seem to slow down the game. For no real effect. As most times it balances out. With out EW you then have to factor EM erratic maneuvers. Asteroids and other terrain that effect EW. No ECM yoyo for cloaked ships. A way to block or face a reroll for the PPD. There are a lot of rules affected by EW.

The worst thing I see about not using EW. It is the only way for small ships to survive in a squadron type battle as is being played in this discussion. 12 Prox photons no shift range 12. 24 if half it. 32 if 8 hit. Good chance of that. Any small ship is hurt. 12 Disr. range 15 1-4 to hit. 24 is a good bet.

The oh you must buy a size class 4 ship as part of your force. No EW I want 3 size class 3 ships.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, April 11, 2025 - 11:47 am: Edit

Drones and fighters. I can't imagine anything worse for slowing down games. Kzinti carrier group any1?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Sunday, April 13, 2025 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Hey Hardcore,

Based on your comments, seems like you might enjoy the "compact" version of this tournament over the "expansive" one.

Testing the link for the current version of the rules below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Klz9ALXzf3LRbI5CGrw3LlIpTfhl0xvI/view?usp=drive_link

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 14, 2025 - 07:22 am: Edit

The link to the current rules works, but you need to cut and paste them into the navigation bar.

Interested in seeing the plans (I did see some basic concepts bouncing around) for the compact version.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Monday, April 14, 2025 - 11:17 am: Edit

Hello Jean Sexton, SPP, SVC,

May I please have two new forum topics, under

"Star Fleet Battles Online: Non-Sapphire Tournaments:"

* 500 BPV Tournament (this one, please leave intact)
* Compact Fleet Battles (new)
* Expansive Fleet Battles (new)

I will be the judge and adapt the rules for people to comment on, playtest, and generally measure demand and interest.

Thanks! Will send email too!

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Tuesday, April 15, 2025 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Ed and I have started and are 2 turns in.

Fed - CLC, CS, DW, DWS
Kli - C7, D6D, 2xE4

Turn 1 - Fed starts with ECM drones launched (assume he reloads rack during T1). Klingon moves 27 all ships straight ahead for the full turn, a couple slips to the left to track Fed movement. Fed immediately turns right along wall moving 22. Imp 18 Fed turns left towards Klingons but slips right every other move keeping just to the left of center line. Fleets end at range 46. Klingon launches 4 ECM drones at end of turns. DWS is a couple hexes behind the 3 war ships. All Klingon ships are together.

Turn 2 - All 4 Kli ships have 6 ECM self generated plus ECM drones, Fed warships have 6 ECCM. Fed starts at speed 16, Klingon starts at 20/19 for C7/E4 and 12 for D6D. Feds turn left early in the turn crossing Klingons center line, the slip left every 2nd move. Imp 7 all Klingons slow to 12 (maybe thinking about launching drone drouge?). Feds skirt along changing speed to 25 mid turn, range closes a little until Feds pass center line and then the slipping left keeps it about the same. Imp 26/27 Klingons speed back up to E4(19)/C7(20)/D6D(21). No drogue came out this turn, wasn't within range 35 until the end when I was going to fast.

Imp 32, C7 is at 34, 2xE4's at 35, D6D at 36 to CLC/CS/DW and +2 hexes to the DW just on the #2 shield (almost on the #2/#3 shield boundrary). C7 and 2xE4 launch 6 drones (can't be targeted on the DWS), then D6D loans 3 ECCM to C7. DWS loans 3 ECM to CLC/CS/DW. C7 shoots 4 long range disr at DWS for no shift, hits 2 times for 4 points. DWS had it's ECM drone up, but 3 loaned ECCM counters it.

So not much so far, a handful of drones out. About 2.75 hours for 2 turns, including my setup time, it takes me about 20 min at setup to add my 4 ships and load all their drones into racks and storage plus load the drogues and SP's.

We will continue Thursday night.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, April 15, 2025 - 11:34 pm: Edit

There seems to be a problem with the damage for disruptors beyond 30 in SFBOL, I was hit with 2 that did 4 damage. It should have been 2, disruptors beyond 30 hits only do 1 damage. How do we report that 2 Paul.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Tuesday, April 15, 2025 - 11:50 pm: Edit

There was no mistake with the game, or for Paul, I just misread the chart.

Yes, you only took 2 pts of damage.

Dana

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Wednesday, April 16, 2025 - 12:02 am: Edit

So it does not add up the damage you do that yourself, sorry when I saw the total I thought the computer would compute it.