Archive through May 10, 2026
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion: Tholian Tactics: Archive through May 10, 2026
By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, March 05, 2026 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Stewart, Alan and I are continuing a long going discussion. So far, there has been no talk about getting together to play the number of mini-campaigns needed to fully prove the points being made.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, April 21, 2026 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Deleted.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, May 03, 2026 - 04:14 pm: Edit

I've been holding off for several months now, waiting to talk about whether a wedding cake or a buzzsaw is better against Seltorians. Partly this is because I had been under the impression that John Christiansen had some additional points he wanted to make regarding the relative value of the two different configurations against "ordinary" attackers, but I don't know what those points are or where he intended to take this discussion. And for various reasons the discussion seems to have ground to a halt, so I don't feel obliged to postpone discussion of the Seltorians indefinitely.

Against the Klingons (used here as a synecdoche for any attacker who does not have a unique technology (such as web breakers or displacement devices) for circumventing web defenses) I believe the wedding cake is clearly superior. John obviously disagrees.

I should stipulate here that I also believe that against either configuration of web, if the base has adequate support and is not caught in a bad weapon status, any non-Andromedan attacker will take tremendous losses. So my opinion isn't "buzzsaw - bad, wedding cake - good" but rather "buzzsaw - good, wedding cake - even better".

But what about the Seltorians? Against them, the ability of the base itself to reinforce the entire web configuration rather than only the inner ring constitutes a clear and obvious buzzsaw advantage. Nevertheless, I believe the wedding cake also has advantages (less obvious ones, perhaps) that outweigh this buzzsaw advantage and make the wedding cake superior overall, even against Seltorians. But it is a much closer call. The superiority of the wedding cake over the buzzsaw against a Seltorian assault is more tenuous and less obvious than it is against a Klingon assault.

Over the next few days (more likely, the next couple of weeks) I want to discuss some of these wedding cake advantages. I certainly won't get to all the ramifications today. But I wanted to at least make a start.

1. Timing
Assuming the same Tholian ships in defense, a buzzsaw-based defense can supply a lot more power to thwart the Seltorian web breakers than can a wedding cake-based defense. But there is more to it than that. We need to consider the Sequence of Play, and when various actions occur.

A non-Tholian ship can exit a web if it expends movement points equal to the strength of the web, within a period of 32 consecutive impulses. Note that this movement takes place during Segment 6A2 of the Impulse Procedure.

Web strength increase due to Tholian reinforcement takes place during Segment 6B4.

Web breaker fire and resulting web strength reduction takes place during Segment 6B7.

Now consider the following possible Seltorian attack. On impulse 32 of a turn, Seltorian PFs and X-ships (assuming, obviously, that they have put X-ships into production) move onto a buzzsaw strand (let's call it the "A" strand) at speed 11 and a point just beyond the outermost anchor of the "B" strand. Note that at this point, only one leg of "B" strand is between the ships trapped in "A" strand, and the base itself. Speed 11 is important because at that speed they take no damage from web deceleration and don't have to roll for breakdown. The fact that the ships are X-ships and PFs is important because they can accelerate from 11 to 31 immediately. So next turn they accelerate to 31 and expend movement points, but don't actually move to a new hex, during every impulse except impulse 1. Note that since they are already trapped in the web, they suffer no damage from rapid deceleration.

On impulse 30, the Selts fire web breakers into the "A" strand. They need to inflict at least 91 points of web breaker damage onto the strand to bring it down to strength 31. (A strength 35, 30 hex web contains 1050 aggregate points. If the web breakers inflict 91 points of degradation, the remaining 959 points divided among 30 hexes yields approximately 31.97 per hex. Web strength rounds down to 31. Note that this fire takes place during Segment 6B7, which is after the Tholian opportunity to reinforce the web during that impulse.

On Impulse 31 the Selt attackers (the ones that moved onto the web strand - there may be others outside the web but contributing to the web breaker fire) have expended 31 movement points (impulse 32 of last turn and impulses 2 - 31 of this turn) within a span of 32 impulses, and move out of the strength 31 "A" strand, into the open hexes between the "A" strand and the "B" strand. This is before the Tholian opportunity to reinforce the web during that impulse.

On impulse 32 the Selts (if they choose to do so - they will take significant damage to their front shields as the crash into the full strength "B" strand at high speed) can move onto the "B" strand at a point three hexes from the base, but with no intervening web, and open fire. There are pros and cons to this "immediate" attack versus turning aside to not hit the "B" strand, then moving onto the "B" strand at lower speed following the turn-break. But the key fact is that the Tholians cannot prevent this attack based on total available energy for reinforcement. The base could be an X-tech starbase, and the Tholian ships all X-cruisers, and they still couldn't stop this attack with web reinforcement, because of the timing. The attack will succeed or fail based on how much damage the Tholian mines and phasers can inflict, before the Selts reach a firing position. The mines are a particular problem for the PFs and need to be discussed in more detail later... but not today.

But hold on (I hear you say...), the Selts can/will use the same technique to get through the rings of a wedding cake. True. But they only need to penetrate one strand of a buzzsaw this way before the can hit the base itself. When they try this against a wedding cake, they still have the middle ring to deal with after the outer ring is penetrated. So they have to do this twice and therefore the Tholians will get more rounds of phaser fire against them before the attackers ever get a shot at the base.

I had originally intended to post a second point; reasons (besides the one mentioned in the preceding paragraph) why a wedding cake is a more efficient configuration for maximizing Tholian phaser fire. But other considerations intrude so that will have to come later; perhaps this evening but probably later in the week.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, May 03, 2026 - 06:24 pm: Edit

I was always thinking in terms of web breakers taking down a web. Not reducing it enough to pass thru in a turn. It is much more feasible to weaken the web to get thru the web. Then to drop it completely.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 04, 2026 - 01:39 am: Edit

Gregory,

Well, in some situations (particularly ones in which the Tholians don't generate a lot of "excess" power), using web breakers to gradually take down the web over several turns can be the better strategy. The attackers will take a lot of damage using the method I described above. But in cases where the Tholians do generate a lot of power, taking down the web gradually, from longer range, may be impossible. The above method can always be used regardless of how much power the Tholian units generate, provided the Selts have enough web breakers to reduce a full strength web to 31 (or less) in a single impulse, and also have enough force in the "assault units" to be able to hit the base or defending ships hard even after absorbing major damage from mines and Tholian preemptive phaser fire.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, May 06, 2026 - 12:07 am: Edit

2. Maximizing Tholian Phaser Fire
In my 4:14 PM post from 03 May, I indicated I believed

Quote:

... a wedding cake is a more efficient configuration for maximizing Tholian phaser fire.

Let's look at an example.

Suppose a Seltorian force decides, based on number of web breakers they possess and available Tholian power, that they should attack the web from a range of 5 hexes. The outer ring of a wedding cake is 5 hexes from the base so the Seltorians are 10 hexes from the BATS. (I usually regard a BATS (without web caster upgrade - so 8 phaser-IVs) as the "default" for web assaults, at least post Y-160.) At 10 hexes, a phaser-IV averages 61/2 points of damage. But it is shooting through a web 5 hexes away so each individual phaser shot is reduced by 4 damage. The phaser-IVs will inflict 21/2 damage each and the BATS will inflict a total of 20 points per turn on the Seltorian attackers.

But the outermost leg of a two-strand, 30-hex buzzsaw is 6 hexes from the base. So the range from base to Seltorians would be 11 hexes and each individual shot will be reduced by 5 damage rather than 4. Taking both of these into account, the base will score a single point of damage on a die roll of 1 or 2, and nothing on a 3-6. With 8 phaser-IVs, that results in an average of only 22/3 damage per turn. But the Seltorians are doing the same damage to the web as in the previous case.

Of course, since in the second case the base can provide reinforcing energy to the full buzzsaw, doing the same damage to the web isn't likely to be good enough. The Seltorians may have to move closer, increasing both the damage they take from the base's phaser-IVs and also the damage they do to the web. Suppose the Seltorians move to within 4 hexes of the outermost leg of the buzzsaw. True range to the base is back to 10 but each phaser-IV shot is reduced by 5 damage, rather than 4 as in the wedding cake case. Expected damage from the base's phasers is 11/2 per shot, or 12 points per turn total. That' still less than the 20 per turn they were receiving from the wedding cake-protected base. But at range-4 from the web, they are doing two more damage per web breaker. If our hypothetical Seltorian force has a total of 15 web breakers, they are reducing the web by 30 more aggregate strength points per turn. Of course, that would only require an additional 15 energy from the Tholians to counter the attack. And the base generates a lot more power than that. Suppose the Selt forces close to 3 hexes from the outer leg / 8 hexes from the base? Going through the above calculations, we find the Selts now take, on average, 36 damage per turn from the base's phasers while inflicting 3 points more per web breaker, compared to a range-5 bombardment of the outer ring of a wedding cake. For our hypothetical 15-web breakers Selt force, that would be 45 points more web damage, requiring 221/2 energy from the base to counter.

That 36 points per turn is more than the Seltorians take at range 5 (10 from the base) against a wedding cake. But it is not catastrophically more. With shield reinforcement the Selts can stand this for "a while"; though obviously we haven't addressed fire from Tholian ships/PFs/fighters yet. The "mobile forces" are critical, but I don't expect this post to be long enough to adequately address the ramifications, both pro-wedding cake and pro-buzzsaw. I will talk about that in a later post. Instead, I want to end this post by looking at the power trade-offs the base has to make. Because the phaser-IVs (and ECM, whether for the base's own phasers or lent to supporting ships/PFs/fighters) are competing for energy with web reinforcement requirements.

I will assume for the rest of this post a Tholian BATS (33 generated power) with an HPM (15 generated power), for a total of 48 power. I am ignoring the batteries here because I want to consider the base's ability to sustain its posture over multiple turns. Also, the base might do slightly better, power-wise, if it included a couple of hanger modules, or distinctly worse if it had a PAM instead of HPM, or no power modules at all. But I'm going to go with the 48 power, partly because I believe the most cost-effective module arrangement for a Tholian BATS is a PF module plus a power module, either PAM of HPM depending on available funds.

A Tholian BATS at the center of either a buzzsaw or a wedding cake doesn't need to pay anything for shields early in the battle, though note the previous post about "Timing", and how the Selts might get into position to hit the base well before the webs are actually down. But here we are looking at a Selt attempt to take down the webs gradually over a number of turns. So they have to pay for life support and will also pay for active fire control if they want to use their phasers effectively. Life support - 21/2 power. The 8 phaser-IVs will require 16 power and 6 ECCM will require another 6 power. But as a base, it can also lend itself ECCM and its phaser-IVs won't blind its own special sensors. Powering one special sensor and buying another 6 ECCM for it costs another 7 power. So 311/2 is the power requirement for the base to pay for housekeeping (not counting shields) and using all its phaser-IVs to full effectiveness. (Note that the base could also employ drogues, which would change the numbers a bit.) The remaining 161/2 power is what the base has remaining (unless it commits its batteries) for web and for EW support for its ships/PFs/fighters.

For a wedding cake, the base only needs 3 power to maintain the innermost ring. So it can use all phaser-IVs each turn with 12 ECCM, and has 13 power left over for EW support of the mobile units; and can maintain this posture indefinitely (or at least until the Selt forces get close enough to force the base to raise shields). For a buzzsaw, the matter is more complicated. Since Seltorians don't show up until after the introduction of PFs, and since the Tholians by this point have several types of web tenders as well as the PWD "Police Web Charger Destroyer", I think we can assume the ships/PFs themselves will usually generate enough power to maintain both buzzsaw strands without additional power from the base. So (in an admittedly oversimplified analysis) the 161/2 power represents additional ability to neutralize additional web degradation enabled by the closer Selt approach to the 6-hexes-from-the base outer leg of the buzzsaw. That 161/2 power can counter a loss of 33 additional aggregate strength each turn, compared to the wedding cake. Recall that if our hypothetical Selts approach to 4 hexes from the outermost buzz saw leg, they inflict 30 additional points of web degradation, requiring by 15 additional power to negate. So the Tholians can counter this without reducing their phaser fire from the base. BUT that phaser firepower is already a bit less effective than against the wedding cake, due to the 6-hexes-distant leg. AND the wedding cane-defended base had 13 more power to provide EW support to its ships. So for the buzz saw, fire from the Tholian ships is probably less accurate. And if the Selts close to range-3 from the buzz saw, they inflict an average of 45 more degradation each turn, requiring 221/2 additional reinforcement energy per turn to counter. So either the web is degrading faster here than a wedding cake's web would, or the base will have to reduce it's own phaser effectiveness, either by not firing all 8 phaser-IVs each turn or by firing them with less than full ECCM. And there's still the factor of the Tholian ships' phasers probably being less accurate due to lack of ECCM lent by the base.

There's a lot more to talk about here and this was planned as only the first, of several, posts about how the different web configurations, wedding cake versus buzzsaw, effect defensive phaser fire. So if you think there's an important issue I haven't discussed, you're right. But don't simply assume I'm unaware of it. Maybe I'm unaware of it, or maybe I think it fits better in a later post.

Also, someone might want to check my arithmetic. I composed this post a little at a time over several hours, while also doing other things. So while I believe my points are generally correct, I wouldn't want to bet the rent money on whether an arithmetic error had crept in somewhere.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, May 06, 2026 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Attacking that Tholian base.

1: lure as many ships as You can away from the base. attacking other targets are whatever.

2: attack with overwhelming force.

3: Time limit. Reinforcements will be coming for the Tholians.

Cost of web at start of scenario.

2 strand buzzsaw 18 asteroids. (450)
strength of web WS-1 (40=160) WS-2 (60=240)
total cost 610 ws-1 690 ws-2

wedding cake, 12 asteroids. (300)
strength of web. ws-1 (40=160) ws-2 (60=240)
total cost 460 ws-1 450 ws-2. Note wedding cake can increase web strength to match buzzsaw. Giving it a higher web strength.

Mine fields cost 50 BPV per package. A must have as I see it with the buzz saw. Nice to have with a wedding cake.

In this case the attacker (ws-3) gains around 600 t0 700 extra BPV + mine packages in ship strength.

Next, they get as many points again as the Tholians get in ship strength.

I think the best way to take out any base. Is to siege the base. Let nothing in or out. The base does not have ZPMs as in stargate. They will run out of fuel and supplies. A relief force must come to supply the base and drive of the besieging ships.

The other option is hit the base with overwhelming force. Expect to lose a lot of ships. Destroying the base. The Buzz saw with adequate defending ships and mine fields. Scare me as the attacker will take more damage trying to get to the base then vs a wedding cake.

The only other BPV problem is reaching a maximum ship count by command rating. That being 10 ships a scout and leader. (DN)

Just some thoughts.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, May 07, 2026 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Gregory,

For the wedding cake, as opposed to the buzzsaw, why use asteroid anchors at all? There are a couple of "edge case" uses for the asteroids in a wedding cake setup. But they are in my opinion, the exceptions. For the most part, I prefer to just keep it simple and use globular web.

Also, I disagree that against a buzzsaw

Quote:

... the attacker will take more damage trying to get to the base then vs a wedding cake.

I think the situation needs to be divided into "Seltorian" and "Klingon" (as a stand-in for any empire that has to use the "traditional" method to assault a wedding cake) cases.

My last few posts have focused on the Seltorian case. Note the method I outlined in my 4:14 PM post from 03 May, for using web breakers to temporarily reduce the strength of web and get attacking forces into firing position against the base. That method cannot be countered simply by reinforcing energy, no matter how much the Tholians have available, due to timing issues. And it can be used against either a buzzsaw or a wedding cake but against a wedding cake it needs to be used twice, once at the outer ring and once at the middle ring. This means the defending base will get at least one more turn of fire (before the Selts can hit the base itself) than a buzzsaw-defended base would. Mines are a factor, but the attack method calls for the Selts to bore straight in toward the base. They engage a much lower percentage of the defenders' mines than they would if they had to follow along the buzzsaw's spiral. So I believe that, against a Seltorian (or mixed Seltorian/Klingon)* force using this attack method, the extra turn of phaser fire the Tholians get before the Selts can hit the base, means the Selts take more damage against the wedding cake.

Maybe my analysis here is mistaken. But where? What am I missing that would cause the Selts (assuming the condition are right for using this attack method in the first place) to take more damage against the buzzsaw?

For the Klingon (as stand-in for any non-Selt (and non-Andromedan) empire) case, the question is whether the more turns of phaser fire that the Klingons would suffer in a wedding cake assault, outweighs the massive mine damage during a buzzsaw. Note first of all that a wedding cake is also a very efficient configuration for forcing the Klingon to engage multiple mines, in addition to multiple turns of phaser-IV (and phaser-Is from the ships/PFs) fire.

Also, in a different thread and a number of months ago, I proposed a mine clearance tactic the Klingons could use to attack a buzzsaw and take substantially less mine damage overall. I think I will copy that tactic here for this discussion, though I may not get around to it may not be today. This buzzsaw-specific tactic (it won't work against a wedding cake minefield) would certainly not mean the Klingons get through the mines unscathed, but it would noticeably reduce the mine damage. I don't believe anyone has yet posted a reason why the tactic wouldn't work against a standard mine package, though buying a lot of extra command detonators can counter it. But all those command detonators not only raise the total cost of the minefield, they induce additional problems, such as the fact that only one command-controlled mine can be placed per hex.

Anyway, sometime soon I will post a discussion of the tactic in this thread so you can evaluate it for yourself.


*One of these days I intend to post what I regard as "scary alliances" against the Tholians. For example, based solely on technology and ignoring considerations of total economy and fleet size, I believe a Seltorian/Hydran alliance is more dangerous to the Holdfast than either a pure Hydran or pure Selt enemy. I want to talk about some of these "scary alliances" but it will have to wait until another day.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 07, 2026 - 05:25 pm: Edit

In the end, the Seltorians over-played their hand and were destroyed by those nosy ISC folks and then betrayed and exterminated by those treacherous (from a Seltorian point of view) Klingons. Had the Seltorians continued to raid the Holdfast over time their birth rate and industrial development would have considerably strengthened their fleet, but more important they would have kept the Hold.fast pinned down and unable to flee as their, ahem, Final Tribunal Justice lowered the hammer on them with Hive ships in sufficient numbers to carry an overwhelming number of web breakers to do to the Holdfast why the Seltorians did to the Tholians in their Home Galaxy. At which point they will turn and seek revenge on the Klingons, then the rest of the Milky Way.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 02:10 pm: Edit

The best use of asteroids in a globular web is on the middle rings to plant Phaser 4 batteries.

IIRC P4 ground bases are pretty cheap and will be closer to the opposition to fire.

ALSO,, your mines around a globe are there to prevent the bad guys from just diving into the outermost web and shooting at your web reinforcing ships.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Mike,

The basic Ground-Based Phaser IV costs 14 points. But you also have to buy an asteroid (at 25 points) to put it on. So the real cost for that extra phaser IV is 39 points. For 59 points the Tholians could instead buy another Patrol Corvette. More expensive than an asteroid + ground-based phaser, to be sure. But it has 4 phaser-Is, can provide reinforcing energy to the web, and is much harder to kill than the GBDP.

If you choose to use asteroid anchors for some other reason, spending 14 points apiece to put some phaser-IVs on some of those asteroids makes sense (though I would also consider buying some Ground Warning Stations, for the extra EW capability, instead). But choosing anchored, rather than globular, web for no other reason than as platforms for some additional phaser-IVs? I'm dubious that this is really the best use of the Tholian resources.

YMM, as they say, V

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 05:12 pm: Edit

As a reminder, the GBDP can't be fired on from beyond true range five (R1.14C2), and has two points of free ECM (R1.14C3)... and, even when rearming the entire four-point phaser capacitor, can still add three more ECM to that (free fire control & life support, and single-point for the shield). Just a note about its killability.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Jessica,

But we're talking about this in the context of an assault on a web-protected Tholian base. I'm inclined to believe that the range-5 issue will... not matter much.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Hmmm, not sure (R1,14C4) applies when on an asteroid …

This is a replay of the Rocky Road term papers from various early Captain's Log (IIRC) as a Large asteroid could support one or two small bases which opens up a bit more support (phasers, attrition units) but costs more funding in fixed defenses …

[Hey SPP, what would it cost the Tholians for a GB power station with a WEB box for 'external' web support??]

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 09:38 pm: Edit

The primary use of asteroids on a wedding cake are, in my opinion, a way to set up staggered gates through web, without lowering all the web around a base during high alert times.

I suspect that slow less critical freight units likely do not have web pass, in order to save money, resources, and to reduce the chances of outsiders learning how web works form low value, easily captured units.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 08, 2026 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Adm,

I don't think G10.53 supports your belief. But even if it does, The Tholians already have a way to get such units through web. No "normal" non-Tholian can get through a strength-35 web on its own. But for one unit to pull a trapped friendly out of the web requires establishing a tractor beam and expending power at least equal to the web strength. But all that power has to come from a single unit. So where do the Tholians get a ship that can put 35 power into a tractor beam, if they don't have a spare dreadnought or X-cruiser lying around? Three patrol corvettes form a pinwheel, and that pinwheel will be able to generate a strong enough tractor link to pull a trapped friendly out of a full strength web. That seems to me a better solution than linking 6 linear webs between asteroids, to create gates, in most cases. It doesn't require creating a gap in the web that an enemy might charge through.

Y proverbial MMV.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 09, 2026 - 12:55 am: Edit

I should clarify that I believe Adm's notion of creating "gates" for non-web-pass-capable ships to gain entrance to a wedding cake is probably the best justification for asteroid anchors in the wedding cake. But I think it applies more to allied forces operating in the Holdfast (as apparently did happen to some extent during "Operation Nutcracker"), rather than Tholian freighters and such. And it's not the only way to handle the problem. The Tholians could instead use globular web for the wedding cake, and tractor beams to get the allied ships through the web.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Saturday, May 09, 2026 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Thyrm: Assuming six large asteroids, and assuming that the GBDP is placed on the asteroid firing outward, three of those are always going to be able to fire at any given target... and two will be beyond range five of that target, unless the plan is to try to fight through the outer web directly opposite each and every asteroid.

Frazikar3: There is no exception to (R1.14C) given for ground bases on large asteroids. Rules for their placement is in (P2.747).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 09, 2026 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Jessica,

But wait a moment... Which ring are you placing these GBDPs in? If the middle ring (which I believe is the best place if you do want to augment the base defense with extra phaser-IVs), the 5 hex limit will be a non-factor for the simple reason that the attacking ships have no line-of-fire against those GBDPs until they are already in the outer web ring, which will be closer than 5 hexes anyway.

But suppose you do wish to place GBDPs on asteroids anchoring the outer ring. The attacker destroys them from 75 hexes away, by targeting the asteroids themselves with phaser-Is. Since each asteroid takes 400 points of damage, it will take a long time at that range. But if the Klingons, or whoever, show up with a fleet that's not strong enough to actually assault the wedding cake, but is too strong for the Tholians to sortie against, so far from the base, those asteroids are eventually doomed. Note that this does not collapse the outer web ring. Per G10.131, the web can hold the resulting "sack of rocks" together as a satisfactory anchor. But the GBDP itself is still destroyed. (P3.45) DESTRUCTION does not list any "web-stabilized sack of rocks" exception to the general rule that destroying an asteroid destroys any base placed on it.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, May 09, 2026 - 08:30 pm: Edit

This discussion was about what is better a wedding cake or Buzzsaw web.

As I see it the wedding cake is better than the buzz saw as in cost. Both economical and BPV wise. The asteroids alone cost 450 for the Buzzsaw and it must have them to be legal. The wedding cake is 300 but does not need them.
There are a lot of good reasons for Asteroids in the wedding cake. having ground bases in the inner ring is the best. As for being able to open a section to allow freighters or allies thru. The webs are kept at minimal levels. Until an enemy shows up. That means only in combat is it a problem and You would not want to drop a section of web with enemy ships, about any way.

The mine field. A buzzsaw needs a Mine field. The more the better. The wedding cake can do without a mine field. It is only 50BPV per minefield. The point savings are few in that case.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Saturday, May 09, 2026 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Thyrm: I was referencing Mike Grafton's statement: "The best use of asteroids in a globular web is on the middle rings to plant Phaser 4 batteries." Thus, the middle rings.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, May 10, 2026 - 04:31 am: Edit

Jessica,

That's what I suspected. But then I'm going to stand by my contention that an ability to target the GBDP from more than 5 hexes doesn't matter much because the outer ring will block fire against them anyway.

Note that I said "... matter much" rather than "... matter at all" because you can create some specific situations in which it can make a minor difference to the outcome of the attack. Here's one; the Tholians defenders are caught be surprise (D18). Per G10.835, the webs will be in place, but have zero strength. Based on the situation and actual forces available, the Tholians might decide to go with a two-tier wedding cake and just not put any reinforcing energy into the outer web because they don't have time to bring it up to strength. Instead they put all their reinforcing energy into the middle tier, which can be brought up to strength more quickly.

Now in this situation, the ability of the Klingons to target the asteroid bases from long range rather than having to close to 5 hexes might make a minor difference in whether they succeed or fail in killing the main base. But:

1. D18-type surprise just doesn't happen often in the first place;

2. Time permitting, the Klingons could kill the asteroid bases from long range anyway, even under current rules, by targeting the asteroids;

3. The Tholians actually only need to bring the outer ring to strength one to eliminate long range direct fire attacks against the asteroid bases;

4. Even if the Tholians are defending a two-tier wedding cake, with asteroid-based GBDPs installed on what is now the de facto outer ring, there are other tactical factors that are likely to have a much greater impact than the range from which the Klingons engage those bases, on the question of whether the main base survives.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, May 10, 2026 - 11:43 am: Edit

I though that the 5 hex limit was on ones firingthrough atmosphere...

I'm probably wrong

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, May 10, 2026 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Gregory,

I meant to reply earlier but then forgot...

Quote:

As I see it the wedding cake is better than the buzz saw as in cost. Both economical and BPV wise.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. A wedding cake (with globular web) is certainly cheaper than a typical buzzsaw as far as BPV is concerned. But "economically"? I think the difference is slight. The Tholians didn't build the asteroids they are using as anchors. They had to expend fuel (above and beyond the energy required for the webs themselves) to go and get the asteroids and then maneuver them into position. And possibly there would be other costs associated with the asteroids; perhaps more stress (therefore more required maintenance) on the tractors, or something like that. Neither SFB nor F&E nor any of the stories or background text provide any information for estimating that, so far as I can recall. But I can't really believe that any difference in "real" economic cost comes close to the difference in BPV cost. A 2-strand, 30-hex buzzsaw will use 18 asteroids, for (in an S8-type "Patrol Battle") 450 BPV. That is approximately the same cost as three Archeo-Tholian command cruisers. I can see how the buzzsaw might perhaps be a bit more expensive than the wedding cake, in real economic terms, due to fuel costs and maybe increased maintenance costs. And it will also require more mines to be viable. But still...

There are several reason why I think the wedding cake is superior to the buzzsaw. But if I were to try to sum up that superiority in a single point, it would be something like this:

Assuming similar readiness for both bases, it will always take the attacker* (except... maybe... the Andromedans, depending on their forces and choice of tactics) more turns to achieve a firing position against a base protected by a wedding cake. Therefore the attackers are subject to more turns of heavy phaser fire before they actually get a shot at the base.


*Although I have purchased the modules for various "non-Alpha" sectors such as Omega or the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, I have always been most interested in Alpha and the "classic" empires. It's possible that somewhere in Omega there is an enemy whose technology refutes this, and I have simply forgotten them. For similar reasons, I am ignoring "simulator races" and monsters. But I believe the claim holds good for every non-Andro empire that actually conducted operations in Alpha during the time period the game covers. If anyone thinks they have a counter-example, I would most definitely like to see and discuss it.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Sunday, May 10, 2026 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Mike: there's no mention of atmosphere in (R1.14C2). Firing down through atmosphere is its own separate penalty (P2.51).

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