Archive through June 18, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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X2 ph-3 and other small defensive weapons:
Archive through June 18, 2003
John, that is what I was saying. THe Ph-2 and the Ph-6 have similar characteristics at close range so what would be the point of firing as a Ph-2 (for more power no less).
Your latest Ph-6 is the Ph-6 in my book.
Weren't you cool with the Ph-6 costing .75 from a Ph-5 and .5 from a stand-alone mount?
I didn't intend for 2P1 to exceed the througput of a P5. I would be fine with 2P6 limited by X-Aegis but I didn't want to commit in my prior post because I didn't have a P6 table handy. With the X-Aegis limitation the maximum range is 15. I'm still in favor of the P6 using a range 15 P2 chart with a firing cost of 0.75, not unlike a PL-G/PL-L using the same chart.
I'm not sure I see a need for stand alone P6 mounts, except maybe on a SC7 unit, when an XP1 would do the trick. Creating an XP2 that allows for 2P3 pulses would be an interesting weapon for those races on a budget or if the Lyrans want to build PF(X2).
I can see the Kzinti and the Tholians using a stand-alone Ph-6 mount.
I'm not sure I see the Tholians getting X2 tech unless they are building it to kick the Selts out of their home galaxy.
The Tholians need X2 tech because of general paranoia particularly in the case of the Klingons. Also, Tholian players would yell bloody murder if their race wasn't included in X2.
An increase in the production of WCX is sufficient to keep the Tholians safe. Besides, the ISC and trade wars separated the Klingons sufficiently from the Tholians to make it not an issue in my book.
Same notation for the Orions.
Loren,
I'm OK with the different costs, but it's aesthetically displeasing. I'd rather it always cost the same thing to fire a phaser no matter where it gets fired from.
I also think .75 is the appropriate amount of power for a P-6. I figure if we're going to venture into fractions smaller than 1/2 anywhere it might as well be the same for KISS reasons.
I guess I made the comment that kicked this topic off because I was left with the impression that it ran out of steam last time we talked about it. It didn't seem ike it had been resolved.
for thosewho are new to the board, my Kzinti XCA uses an interestingly different phaser technology.
http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/x2-ships.htm
\quoteI also think .75 is the appropriate amount of power for a P-6.}
Agreed. KISS.
Quote:I guess I made the comment that kicked this topic off because I was left with the impression that it ran out of steam last time we talked about it. It didn't seem ike it had been resolved.
Well, I sort of opened a can of worms when I did that efficiency analysis. But I've since agreed that 1.5 for a P5 and .75 for a P6 is fine. What proposals I've made and playtesting I've done was using these rules:
Phaser 5
The chart used is the one John proposed, after several variations and various tweaks.
- P5 can fire for 1.5 energy, and has a three-point capacitor system...enough to fire as a P5 two times.
- It can downfire for 1 point as a P1 to save some energy.
- It can downfire in rapid pulse X-aegis defensive mode as 2 P6's, for .75 energy.
- It can be hastily repaired as a P1. If this is the case, it acts exactly as an X1 P1, including downfiring as a P3...a hastily repaired P5 cannot downfire as a P6.
Might not be perfect, but it's what I've been using/planning on for some time now.
Works for me.
Me too.
The only sticking point is what a native P6 fires as.
Okay, where I stand on this is a little different to you guys.
The Ph-6 should have a uniform cost, If the Ph-5 can fire 'em for 0.75 then they cost 0.75 but if the Ph-5 fires 'em at 0.5 then they cost 0.5!
I don't like the Ph-G having a 0.25 cost and if it can be done away with then all the better.
I think the Ph-6 should be half a point because the stand alone Ph-6 ( mounted on Orions and Lyrans and Kzintis ( maybe something special for Kzintis but I think DC is enough for them ) should cost 0.5 to fire...because the weapon is only about half the damage as the Ph-5 and because these ships will be so fast and have such long ranged weapons ( Ph-5s ) that the Ph-6 needs something EXTRA, such as a low-ish power cost ( 0.5 points ).
To the Tholians...in Y if they were there they used their regular ships, now it's time for them to get some of their own medicine...So what if the Neo Tholian X1 Cruiser is the cost of an XDD, it's still an equal BPV match-up.
I agree that the P-6 should have a uniform cost.
I just also think that cost should be .75
As for the Tholians: not a relistic option.
As to the Rapid pulse dewfense...I don't have a very strong idea of what would be a good system but I know somethoing of the feel which should be continued.
In the GW preiod ( and I don't have Y so I don't know about that ).
1Ph-1 at the last possible range ( R1 ) will autokill a Type I drone.
In X1, 1X1Ph-1 rapid fires as two Ph-3 shots at the last possible range ( R1 ) and will autokill 1 Type VII drone.
In X2 1Ph-5 should rapid pulse as something at the last possible range ( R1 or maybe R2 if certain things happen ) to destroy ( autokill ) the standard one space X2 drone.
.
If that's a simple Type VII then just stick with 2Ph-3 shots.
If it's a boosted Type VII drone then 3Ph-3 shots will autokill and 2Ph-3 shots will kill 26/27 of the time...at that R2 last possible range.
But if it's to be a Type X drone then it'll need to be some that eighter does on rolls of 6 either 4 shots at 2 or more points of damage on a roll of six, 3 shots at 3 or more OR 2 shots at 4 or more...at the last possible range which could be R2.
.
I'm really coming to the conclusion that we need to setting on X2 drones before we come to any kind of agreement as to what the X2 Phaser defenses will look like.
I'm not so sure if the X2Ph-1s need the Ph-6 shot as 50% more of them will effectively make for 3Rapid pulse Ph-3 shots to the 2Ph-6 shots ( it'll depend on the speed of the incomming drone ) but I want the X2 Ph-1 to have a three point cap, in order to make it an improvement over the X1Ph-1.
...another reason why the P-6 should be .75
2x caps are quite enough.
Well I don't think the ONITSOWN Ph-6 should get a 3 point Cap.
2 maybe...1.5 would be good but I actually like 2 more...but then 0.75 doesn't go into 2 very well, so dropping the powercost to 0.5 would be a good move.
2x firing cost is enough.
For all X2 phasers.
Second that 2x caps. The last thing X2 needs is more reserve power.
If we say X2 Ph-1 races are restricted to X1Ph-1s without any kind of improovement (except X1 numbers) then we paint ourselves in a corner in that we can not use True X2 drones and limit outselves to always R1 Type VII or the easy to kill @R2 type VIIB.
I think the Ph-3 has enough defects.
The Ph-3 will have the following drawbacks:-
• Short range in a high speed long range enviroments ( where's the sweetspot R2? ).
• Ph-1s probably won't be able to rapid pulse or even download as Ph-6s.
• Ph-6 on it's own won't have a three point Cap.
• Considerably ( especially the standalone Ph-6 ) lower final damage than the Ph-5.
Now why don't we say that it'll have some small advantage here or there, particularly the ON ITS OWN Ph-6, by having one or two pretty handy advantages.
• Have it's damage to power ratio ( throughput ) quite high ( by doing about half damage for one third the power ( 0.5 points ).
• Allow the Standalone Ph-6 to Rapid Pulse as two Ph-3 shots meaning that pairs of Ph-6s will be very good at X1 and GW drone defense with four Ph-3 shots over the 3Ph-3s ( or 2Ph-3s ) of the single Ph-5.
I didn't mention this in my post about the P5, so I will here. P6's cost .75, period. Doesn't matter where they come from. It may be hastily repaired as a P3.
All phasers have double caps...not three point caps. So, a ship with eight P5's and 2 P6's would have a total capacitor of 27.
Ph-V 1.5
Ph-6 .75
Ph-6 should be able to downfire as 3p3 or 2p6
Phaser Caps: Keep the cap at 2x.
RE: Tholians,
We have to give them 2x ships since they are an integral part of the game. It's not like they are the Selts after all. They have just about as many SSD's as the other minor powers in Alpha.
Let me get this straight...
X2 ships will start with Both X1 BTTYs and X2 Caps.
Why not just work on X1R.
Full Aegis and Bridge as Special Thingy and the A.S.I.F. aren't that much better than the X1 cruisers currently are and quite franky a DNX would be totally ahead of any any X2 cruiser unless they have those aspects (3 Point Caps and some kind of better BTTY ( 4 point or 5 Point after a refit )) chucked in ( especially since people are through around the Idea that an XCA should have 48 Warp Engine Boxes ).
Gee, do you realise that where you taking this is X1 plus some races have special "overloaded" phaser ( but fewer of them ) that do about 50% more damage and work considerably better at slightly longer ranges.
That's not really a generational leap forward.
The X2Ph-1 must have SOMETHING that makes it better than an X1Ph-1 or why even call the vessels X2 Vessels.
I say that SOMETHING MUST be 3 point Caps ( and the Ph-5 must use 3 point Caps or else it becomes impossible for people to use the Ph-5 effectively ) and the ability to defend the ship well at R2 if we have REAL X2 drones.
Just saying that it'll be simpler player some X2 races using completely X1 tachnology is silly, if people wanted that they could go and do an X1 Vs X2 match-up.
Quote:X2 ships will start with Both X1 BTTYs and X2 Caps.
Why not just work on X1R.
Because that's not the whole picture. AFIK, 2X will also have:
- A damage absorbing SIF
- Shield shunting of some form or another
- Far better heavy weapons
- Better support/auxiliary systems (lab, transporters, tractors, etc.)
- More power...signifigantly more, in some cases.
- The S-Bridge, which is very useful.
- Improved drones and Anti-Drones.
Combined, that's quite a big difference between X1 and X2. Just because X2 keeps the X1 batteries and double capacitors doesn't mean it's just X1...it means that if you improve evertything, you end up with nothing anyone wants.
Mike, I would add that there are additional possibilities too. Reserve Power not a era make. 
=====================To all:================
Anyway, whats the problem with the stand alone Ph-6 arming for 1/2 and for 3/4 from a Ph-5? Seriously, whats the point of having a stand alone Ph-6? Sure it takes two hits to kill both but the tactical flexability of the Ph-5 is better and the Ph-5 is repaired in one action as opposed to taking up two CDR systems. If the Ph-6 doesn't get a break in power then what advantage is there to mounting two over one Ph-5?
Re. Caps: Double caps all the way. And here is why that is so much better than X1 double caps. The Ph-5 arms for 1.5 creating a 3 point hold. The Ph-1 fires for 1. That's three turns of Ph-1 fire on caps only! In a defencive position a ship might use all Ph-1s to kill drones/shuttles/plasma and run at top speed with some reinforcement up. Ph-5s used as Ph-1s will be not uncommon for crafty players. I expect the Ph-5 to fire as a Ph-5 only at long range (what it was intended for) and big crunch alphas. The Ph-5 as a Ph-1 is more ecconomical for sword fighting.