Moved from poll commentary:

"One of the biggest mistakes we made when we first sat down to look at X2 was to assume that X-tech was going to shade into general use. X-ships becoming easier to use and therefore not rquiring outstanding crews is, in my mind, part and parcel of that line of thinking."

"I can't speak for SVC, but I don't think the requirement for Outstanding crews to make X-tech work will probably not be lifted for any X-tech, no X1 or X2. It is one of the primary things that defines X-ships as an "elite corps" of starships amid much larger fleets of GW-tech ships."

"The MOMENT you lift the Outstanding Crew requirement, X-ships become de-facto general-use and become the defining baseline ship technology. In assigning a small, elite niche for X-technology, presumably including X2, SVC appears to have decided that the defining baseline technology for the SFU will remain standard technology."

"That means keeping the X-genie in the bottle. Expect X-ships to continue to require an outstanding crew for use. Don't expect that to change any time soon."

Reply:

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that GW era ships will continue to make up the bulk of production in Y214?

X2 has to be general availability. If it isn't, what is?

This little disconnect would go quite far in explaining why we can never seem to agree on things. I'd like to hear more of everyone's thoughts and think this will make a good poll question after some initial discussion.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Even assuming that the Outstanding Crew requirement is removed at one point, X2 would not become general availability till way after it has been around for 20 or 30 years.

If we progress normally, then X1 technology on new hull designs not spefically built for war will be the new general availability hull. I think folks were calling this X1R yes?

So, X1R are the new multirole X1 tech ships, then X2 becomes the new technology. Round about 215 or so? Then X2 gets a wartime upgrade later on down the road.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:10 pm: Edit

I'ld say that the X1R should have in it a statement that after some point in time ( such as 10 years after the YIS of each ship ) the requirement for that ship to have an Outstanding crew will be dropped...some of the X1 abilitites will be dropped and the BPVs will get slightly lower.

A few years latter ( say 15 years after the YIS ) the X1 ships have the ability to mount Outstanding ( and a year after that poor ) crews that have all of the outstanding crew abilitities ( like the three free ECCM and the extra swing point ).


When the X2s come out ( 20 years after the X1s began ) there is against the requirement to run the X2 ships with a crew who can handle the opperations of the equipment and LEARN what must be learnt in order to run the ships successfully.


This is a little like TOP GUN.
Indent That flight school was developed during the veitnam war.
Indent The Communists had access to twice as many planes and the US was only shooting them down with 2:1 ratio.

So the best pilots were taken to a training ground and split into two groups, the very best and the second best.
Indent The very best were given older sabres that flew very much like the Communist Jets whilst the second best flew their F-4s.
Indent After a few months of training the Best pilots had figured out what the Communist fighter tactics were and were shooting down the F-4s just as well as the comminists.
Indent Then the taught those tactics to the second best pilots who given the sabres and followed the best pilots around trying to shoot them down so the best pilots could find tactics that would enable them to out fly the smaller more agile aircraft.
Indent It took them a few months more but they figured out how to outmanouver the sabres and took their tactics back to veitnam.

The ratio jumped up to 12:1 and since then that flight school has remaind functioning to teach pilots DOGFIGHTING.


Perhaps starfleet might be fool enough to forget the lessons learned and close their "school".

Personnally I think a regular crew equipt with a few Legendary Officers would also be a satisfactory method of learning the ins and outs of the new systems...so I would make an Otstanding crew one of the possible selections rather than the only slection and then only for a specific period of time after the YIS of the ship.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 01:14 am: Edit

Tos,

I'm not saying that standard-tech ships will be the bulk of fleets. SVC is saying that. I cannot immidiately find a quote to back that.

It follows then that general availability is what it has been for nearly 100 years. Standard-tech.

Perhaps someone can fill in the quote for me?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 02:08 am: Edit

Standard tech ships are the bulk of new production from Y180-Y204. X1 ships represent 5-20%. I'm with you on that. But it is the task we have undertaken to determine what happens in Y205+.

The history beyond the Andro war is rather undefined. What we know is that there is a Xork invasion. We know there is a Trade War period from about Y205 until the Xorks arrive. We know not to design X2 to match the Xorks.

Beyond that, guidance has been at best limited. Limited guidance is good as it allows us to pretend to be game designers with our favorite game, build a cohesive history, some form of consensus and present one or more proposals to ADB. Steve is allowing us to go about our business on the off chance that we might come up with something useful. The more limitations he places on us the more our creativity is limited so he has wisely chosen to let this experiment continue and see if it bears fruit. When he sees something he really doesn’t like he has shown he is willing to let us know. I would worry less about finding a quote and worry more about developing a cohesive history.

Having this conversation has refreshed my memory. I recall having thought through this once before. I’m not sure how easy it will be to explain so bear with me.

New Construction:
Y180: 100% X0
Y185: 90% X0, 10% X1
Y190: 85% X0, 15% X1
Y195: 80% X0, 20% X1
Y200: 80% X0, 20% X1
Y205: 35% X0, 10% X1, 5% X2, 50% surplus capacity

The downturn in Y205 X0 production is largely due to a surplus of warships at the end of Andro war. I estimate here that new construction in Y205 is half (probably even less) of Y200 Andro War construction. I have also previously proposed treaty limitations designed to make it impossible for any race to develop the logistical network or fleet density required to seriously threaten their neighbors.

Y210: 15% X0, 5% X1, 30% X2, 50% surplus capacity
Y215: 5% X0, 5% X1, 40% X2, 50% surplus capacity
Y220: 0% X0, 0% X1, 50% X2, 50% surplus capacity

X0 production would fill specialty roles. X1 ships would be retained as enforcer and command ships assigned to strike forces and battle fleets. X2 would be general-purpose ships sent alone to explore, show the flag and ensure free trade; designed for patrol not war. Surplus X0 and X1 ships would be sold to independent systems and trade cartels plying the wide neutral zones. Multi-generational battles, warlords, privateers and pirates would be commonplace presenting a wealth of scenario options. In my universe X2 ships are common and combat minimized, maximizing the number of interesting scenario options by minimizing the cross-generational incompatibilities, not the uber-ships of Supplement 2.

Other than thinking Steve favors a particular solution what are your game play or historical reasons why you feel X2 ships should evolve on a different path?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 02:29 am: Edit

I cant find the quote. But SVC said early on in the discussion that 2X tech was going to be the standard.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 04:53 am: Edit

Tos, there is no way that a new ship design barely out of drydock is going to be the only thing produced in a 15 year time period.

X1 on purpose built non-wartime ships would happen long before a advanced new tech (X2) is going to be the only thing going.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 05:14 am: Edit

I'm curious.

Isn't there a rule that stops Outstanding Crew being mounted on a dreadnought...Most people think the much anticipated DNX will be in X1R, but how could that be possible?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 08:10 am: Edit

The game is built around GW tech. X1 interacts with that. EY is a scaled down version of it; almost like playing with the most basic rules. I can't see GW stuff not being part of the X2 world. Everyone might have it, but how could everyone possibly afford only it?

SVC has specifically stated that X2 must play nice with GW tech, which leads me to think he intends them to mesh and that GW ships will still be around in the X2 period, and I'd bet they'll still be the bulk of the fleet.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 09:57 am: Edit

Yeah, I'm sure around Y225 the CARa+ is performing a role not all that dis-similar to the CL of Y145...well maybe the CLa+ of Y185 i.e. is all varriants and specialty ships.


.


\Gotta love the CLH...I wonder when the CAHa+ comes to pass, probably Y220.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Tos,

It is possible I misread SVC, wherever it was I read what I read. What I read was the intention that the T200 or 205 percentages (by 205 I mean of what is actually constructed, it would go like 70-20-10) would be the way things continue up to the Xork war. I thought I read it in and acroud the topics that were active when SVC was teasing us about the Xorks.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 03:38 pm: Edit

X2 could certainly be a more limited, more advanced form of X1 ship. It just adds much less variety to the game if I can only have 1 out of every 20 ships be an X2 ship. With these percentages a fleet battle set in Y185 and a fleet battle in Y210 might only differ by one ship. Insufficient stirring of the pot to change the feel.

In Y203, after a generation of warfare I suspect many of the border colonies would declare independence. The empires would shrink to about half their pre-war diameter. Economies would be in deep economic depressions. Fleets would be awash with surplus new and recent production. Rather than begin another war to recapture the devastated rebel colonies the Empires would focus internally. For quick cash fleet surplus would be sold off to former colonies creating a Wild West style neutral zone. Each Empire could mothball hundreds of GW era ships and still have thousands available for sale. There would be very little reason to produce new GW era ships. All production and R&D would flow into the new X2 designs which would become general availability to each Empire but would not be sold to the former colonies.

"SVC has specifically stated that X2 must play nice with GW tech, which leads me to think he intends them to mesh and that GW ships will still be around in the X2 period, and I'd bet they'll still be the bulk of the fleet."

The important thing to remember is new production is not the same thing as fleet composition. If I have 1000 ships and convert all production to X2 at the rate of 10/year I have 100% X2 production even though X2 makes up only 1% of the fleet. X0/XP/X1/X1R/X2 ships will function together in the same fleets for many years and will have cross-generational enemies for many more.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Tos,

If F&E is a resonable depiction of the SFU, maybe--MAYBE-- 1000 ships were built by one of the large empires during the whole of the General War. Most have been destroyed.

Nobody would have a 1000-ship standing fleet.

The active fleets of a given race would be far smaller. At the largest, assume a core of perhaps 15-20 X2 ships of various sizes in a fleet with 30-40 X1 ships and 100-150 standard.

Probably more like 1/2 those numbers.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 05:03 pm: Edit

See, It was my understanding that the basic reason for SVCs 'X2 must play nice with GW' was that an X2 product that could only be played with X2 wouldnt be played much, ergo wouldnt sell well, ergo no product..

I just have trouble ~seeing~ the GW ships staying in service that long, as GW ships. I would imagine they would (like most 'older' naval military hulls) undergo extensive refitting over time (not unlike the evolution the Fed CA goes through in the GW) into something, if not comperable to maximum-tech new construction, at least something that will be of combat value given the size of the hull in question.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Arron,

Correct, but that does not address feet composition post-205.

I have trouble seeing GW-ships continuing into the 200's too, but it's not my game.

Standard-tech is the bread and butter of the game and to eliminate it from play after a certain time period does, from another point of view, also seems strange.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

It would seem strange to me too. I'm not advocating an end to GW ships in the fleet, just an end date for new construction. I'm expecting numerous Xork vs. GW duels as the independent neutral zone planets vainly try to defend their world.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 09:25 pm: Edit

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Fleets would be awash with surplus new and recent production. Rather than begin another war to recapture the devastated rebel colonies the Empires would focus internally. For quick cash fleet surplus would be sold off to former colonies creating a Wild West style neutral zone. Each Empire could mothball hundreds of GW era ships and still have thousands available for sale. There would be very little reason to produce new GW era ships. All production and R&D would flow into the new X2 designs which would become general availability to each Empire but would not be sold to the former colonies.

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Correct, but that does not address feet composition post-205.

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Standard-tech is the bread and butter of the game and to eliminate it from play after a certain time period does, from another point of view, also seems strange.

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It would seem strange to me too. I'm not advocating an end to GW ships in the fleet, just an end date for new construction. I'm expecting numerous Xork vs. GW duels as the independent neutral zone planets vainly try to defend their world.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Actually all the traditional hulls would make good use for ships whose targets weren't going anywhere fast.

CA scouts
CA minsweepers
CA Commando cruisers
CA Hospital ships
CA Survey cruisers
CA picket ships
CA drone Bombardment cruisers
CA National Guard vessels

DD versions of all said same.

Note those in red are probably one and the same ship.

NCA, NCL and FF based ship would be farmed off to National Guard fleets and Colonial defense forces where possible...the ones that aren't converted to carrier escort ships.

FFGs, even the FFEs ( if escorted by by something with actual punch ( like an FFG ) would make fantastic replacements or the POL.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit

I have to say I disagree about the Fed NCA and NCL getting farmed out to the Guards. Remember, they and the Romulans built NCL/CW as a replacement for their aging predicessors, not as wartime hulls.

The Fed NCL and the Rom Sparrowhawk/Firehawk would both be fighting for many years to come.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

I didn't know that about the Fed NCA and NCL, but then with a less devistated ecconomy the Feds would have more ship building going on and therefore could more afford to farm out the NCLs and NCAs than the other ecconomies.

The Feds being driven by a hope for efficenecy whilst the others are driven by a fear of bankruptcy...maybe the Feds would keep them and just be the odd race out ( with the Roms ).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Yeah, the other races would surely sell off their OLD war hulls as scrap or as system defense ships, where the warp engines being slow and old would not matter as much.

The Roms though, will be VERY broke and low on ships resulting from GW losses, Civil War losses, Andro losses and ISC losses. Any Heavy Cruiser they have left is going to get the X1 upgrade, and anything else is going to be needed to defend the frontier.

The Feds will be able to recover faster and they would keep the new "replacement" classes, the NCL/NCA specifically, since they are not "war classes".

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:25 am: Edit

Yeah. Eventually the Rom's would convert anything that they could get their hands on. Just look at the KEX.

As to Fleet Composition:

SVC stated that 2X would become the defacto general deployment ships. IE: They don't need Outstanding Crews to operate.

I agree that 2X will at first be a minority. And that a number of GW type ships will continue to soldier on well into the 2X period. Gradually being whittled away as replacements are few and far between.

Probably the GW will recieve XP refits to help maintain viability. (But thats another discussion.)

Older NCL's could be sold off to the various minor planets. I mean a NCL could threaten a Orion XFF fairly effectively. There's very few things as intemidating as a threatened Jackpot to cool your ardor for a close and hose.

The NCA's:
If you take in R10 they would seem to have been improved a good bit. Making them fill rolls besides simply appearing on the Battleline. I doubt that the federation would continue producing more than a handful though after the introduction of the CX.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:38 am: Edit

WEll, with the NCL still being produced, at least to fill out the DDX production, the NCA is still a possibility for conversion. But I agree, not many NCA hulls would be built I don't think. Not vanilla amyway.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:06 am: Edit

About the only NCA's that would be produced are the ones that fill roles that the CX GVX don't already fill adequately.

So for the Feds that limits it to the Carriers (At best). The GVX is already adequate in that role. The following other variants are pretty much already covered as well or obsolete.

NCF: Obsolete. XTech fill the role. (And better)
NCD: A possibility. But more likely is switching the Fed DDGX to 4 Drone racks. But others may use this.
NSR/NSRV: The GSX/GVX Fill this role.
NAL: Switching off 2 Photons for harder to manitain Plasma-F's. (Unlikely IMO.)
NHS: The GSX already fills this role.
NAE: The most likely ship to recieve continued production after the introduction of XTech.

Going back to the CV's.
NHV: Very good possibility
NDS: Another excellent possibility
NCV: Possible but IMO the other two would be more likely.

*Note: The NSRV: Is included under the NSR entry.

So the only ships likely to recieve continued production after the intro of 1X tech are:
NHV
NDS
NAE

Possablities:
NCV
NCD

So I will stand by my original assertion that the deployment of NCA's will be severely curtailed if not eliminated completely by the rennaisance of XTech.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:09 am: Edit

For the other races they will probably follow this pattern. Except they will probably continue producing the Heavy Scout and Survey variants.