Archive through July 19, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: 2X Drone Ideas: Archive through July 19, 2003
By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 01:41 pm: Edit

I wouldn't want to do a lot of dice rolling.

Loren, why not simply try this: (warhead spaces devoted to bomlets * damage per space) divided by 4 (round down) and apply the result to the facing shield and 2 adjacent ones? That builds in an automatic degree of inefficiency while making things simple.

If that's too efficient, divide by 5.

KISS

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 02:24 pm: Edit

I'm sorry, but there is a ton of dice rolling in SFB. There wouldn't be that many that hit so it's hardly much extra work and many people have told me they don't like having to do math mid-game (note the unpopularity of my 1.5 x warp). With 1d6 the result is clear and direct. In case you do get a lot of hits then you would be so happy to have totally scored that you wouldn't mind rolling a few dice. :O

I would use three different colored dice so I could roll all three at once per drone.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 03:22 pm: Edit

That's like using multiple pairs of dice to speed up damage allocation.

Still that's one extra dice roll.

How many Battletech players here found it to be a pain to roll for number of missiles as well as rolling to hit?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Loren, I think it could be both. A drone munition and a fighter pod.

Kenneth, I'm not really familiar with the Tachyon and Scud. I've focused on original Galactics and haven't delved into the other realms that much. Would you tell me what you're thinking?

I definitely want to see the Interceptor Drone. It's basically an X2-Dogfight Drone (FD2.5/XFD2.51) that has a speed of 64 (i.e. it moves 2 hexes per impulse) and a maximum range of 16 hexes (i.e. its endurance is 8 impulses).

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

RBN,

The Tachyon Missile is an Omega weapon that in some ways is better than a Type H drone. And someways worse. Essentialy it will equal out in firepower with a Type H drone. But ships can carry whole racks of them.

The Scud is a simulator weapon that makes the Type H drone look like the before guy getting sand kicked into his face (In the old Charles Atlas ads.) Compared to the after shot of him kicking everyones A**. (The Scud Missile.)

I dont have the C4 book in front of me. But IIRC it takes well over 30 points to kill a Scud.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Quote:

How many Battletech players here found it to be a pain to roll for number of missiles as well as rolling to hit?


Rolling the location of each SRM is a pain.
Rolling the location of each group of 5 from an LRM-20 is a pain...because you're so much less likely to blow someone's head off...better to take a guass rifle.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 08:35 am: Edit

Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
How many Battletech players here found it to be a pain to roll for number of missiles as well as rolling to hit?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rolling the location of each SRM is a pain.
Rolling the location of each group of 5 from an LRM-20 is a pain...because you're so much less likely to blow someone's head off...better to take a guass rifle.



Actually it's better to take either a Clan ER PPC or an Ultra AC20:)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:52 am: Edit

Here's where I stand on the X2 drones.


X2 drones start as the standard drone being the Type VII and ships come with Type XII drones as part of their BPV.

From Y205 to 210 the type VII was the standard one space drone, being 18/6/32Var

From Y211-215 the explosive modules were improved on the standard drones and so the type VII became 24/6/32Var.

In Y216 the Kzinti invented the Booster drone and were followed a year latter by the Feds.
These were Type VIIB (24/3/40Alt) for 1.5 spaces and the Type VIIIB ( 32/4/40Alt ) for 2 spaces, using parts rearranged from fighter booster packs.


In Y220 the Type X ( 24/8/40 Var ), and Type XIII drones were invented ( 1.5 spaces 32/10/40Var ) respectively.

In Y221 the type XI finally rolled of the assembly line being a rebirth of the true 2 space drone and being ( 48/12/40Var).


Var is varriable at launch.
Alt can be will alter it's speed in flight.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:12 am: Edit

Hmm Offhand I don't see to many problems. Of course evrything would have to be gamed out, to really shake it up.

But I would say.
"By Jove I think he's got it!"

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 01:17 pm: Edit

12 damage point, 48 warhead speed 40 drones? Just say no.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Mike I think the 40 is for Boosted drones. And thats not until AFTER the Xorks show.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Just to be clear MJC's boosted drone proposal is his own variation of the idea.

Mine was to use X1 drone frames.
Drone Booster Pack: DBP's double speed of the drone for 4 impulses (spd 64) from launch. Type VII drones can have up to two packs to get 4 impulses each (total 8 impulses of spd 64). Type VIII drones can have three packs but it takes two to get the first 4 impulses (so still a maximum of 8 impulses). Packs are 1/2 BPV each and a Limited availability for X2 and are bought like a drone speed upgrade. (i.e. as part of the force etc.) Type IX drones get 8 impulses for the one pack they can carry.

Drone Booster Packs are fitted to the out side of the frame, add no space to the frame and take up no modules. Once expended they are ejected from the frame and the drone continues normally for its frame type including variables like external armor or others.

TAKES DOUBLE DAMAGE: A drone in boosted mode takes double damage from weapons just like fighters with WBP do. Also, they take double damage from terrain but take normal damage from mines.* If a boosted drone reaches its target while in boosted mode there is a 2 in 6 chance of the drone missing. Roll one die, if it is a 5 or 6 the drone exploded too far from the target and does no damage.

*= Mine damage is doubled but the drone is moving so fast the damage is first less so it balances out to just normal damage.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I don't care if it's after Godzilla shows up; a drone that can do as much damage as a plasma R is just wrong, especially when not even the very best phaser on a ship can take it out in one shot. It's too much.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Seconded.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Quote:

12 damage point, 48 warhead speed 40 drones? Just say no.


"Makes the IVM drone look like a pop-gun!"


24 Vs 48 so it's double the dame of the IVM.
6 Vs 12 so it's double the toughness of the IVM.
20 Vs 40 so it's twice as fast as the IVM.

I think that considing how exspensive X12 ships will be they won't be killers.


3R1 Rapid Pulsed Ph-3 shots will kill it 8/27 of the time.
2 Ph-6 shots ( depending on the Ph-6 table you use ) if you are using any table that has a 6 as a result on a Ph-6 shot then the Ph-5 can rapid pulse as 2Ph-6s to kill the drohne ebven if only on a 1 in 36 chance.


Quite frankly the idea that a Type XIII drones needs to be taken out by one Phaser is SPEWRIOUS to say the least.
At R1 the type XIII drone can be killed with 4Ph-3 shots which at the worst takes two capital phasers out of the attack, A Type IVM drones takes two capital Phaser out of the attack to auto kill so the idea that a Ph-5 must in some form or another kill the Type XIII is un founded, the Ph-2 has no chance of killing a Type VIM drone via "getting lucky" so we have no grounds to say that in some form or another the Ph-5 MUST be able to kill the Type XIII.

AT R2, it's proably that the Ph-6 will be doing 3-5 or 3-4 damage so again a pair of Ph-5s, each rapid pulsed as Ph-6s will autokill a Type XIII drone, which takes as many capital phasers away as the old Type IVM against Ph-1s.


At any rate I'm willing to leave the Type XIII which as a return to the TURE DOUBLE SPACE DRONE as a side note and simply follow on from the X1 traditions, letting it simmer to one side and drop it or keep it depending on what play testing does.


L.K.:

Yeah my Type VIIBs are different to yours because of the following ideas.
• The drones should be built differently and come from the factory with their capasities and thus will be 1.5 and 2 spaces respectively.
• The drone booster reguardless of how many hexes are spent in boosted mode will causethe drones Endurance to drop to three turns.
• A Drone moving at boosted speed is moving too fast for its onboard basic terminal guidance computer and therefore generates 10 ECM whilst boosted to the target, with the post boost impulses being 6, 2 & 1 respectively.

I don't really like the 4 impulse restriction but I guess playtesting will show the way.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Still a bad idea. If the boosted dron's endurance dropped to 20 hexes, then we'd be talkin'

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:41 pm: Edit

It's insane.

MADNESS

"This way lies madness"

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Quote:

Still a bad idea. If the boosted dron's endurance dropped to 20 hexes, then we'd be talkin'


I might be willing to have an OVERHEATING rule.

Scientists found that if run conituously for more than 20 million metres, the overheating would cause the engine parts to rupture, destroying the drone in a ball of fire.
The sceintits tried adding more insulation ( and there is a small amount of extra insulation in the Boosted drones ) but the only workable solution was to build in a thermostat driven automatic cut out, which cuts out after 16 impulses. The drone must wait at least as many impulses as the last boosted period for the system to cool down and allow the drone to boost again.


Boosted drones are not really a threat.
Even if you only get an R2 shot, you auto-kill Type VIIB and Type VIIIB drones with 3 and 4 Ph-3 shots respectively.
If the boost is opperating then you WILL get those R1 shots taking the numbers to 2 and 3 Ph-3 shots repectively.
With X limited Aegis and average rolls, these drone become easier to kill than listed above which is worst case scenario stuff...with X limited Aegis at R2, you have a pretty good chance to kill a Type VIIIB drone with a single Ph-3 shot and an even better chance to kill a Type VIIB.
GW ships have a lot of Phaser and can indeed devote an entire ship's phaser array ( or to ship's ) to drone defense with out really much trouble, they have so many phasers and so many heavy weaopons in their task group that they can afford to not have limited Aegis and the like.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit

That speed coupled with a massive warhead makes for a massive threat. I would daresay that most of the people commenting on it would think it is an unreasonable threat.

I know I do.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Quote:

I think that considing how exspensive X12 ships will be they won't be killers.



Tell that to the poor GW ship you take these up against. I reiterate...just say no.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Okay.

You take a 130 BPV Federation X2 Frigate and I take an NCL.


Other the two X2 Gracks, you have, I can direct an entire G-rack ( read ADD-8 ) and four Ph-1s ( unless I centerline the drones ) and a Ph-3 ( unless I centerline the drones win which case 2 ) and two tractors to drone defense.

Your 2 facing Ph-5s might do some damage ( average of 7 points at R8 ) and your two 24 point photons might hurt, but I can chuck four 16 point photons right back at you and proably a few phasers...worst case scenario would be one Type VI kills one of you uber drones and 4R2 Ph-1 kills the other...if I get an R1 shot on the drone I'll take a chance and fire 2Ph-1 and Ph-3 with a 1 in 108 chance of not doing the 12 or more points of damage.


The Type XIII might be too much but I wouldn't say that just throwing cleche's at it is enough to truely determine if it is or isn't...leave it for playtesters to toy around with.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

sorry. 48 damage + 40 speed = no sale.

In general usage, combined with scatterpacks of a previous turn's flight of deones to soften up defenses, it's just too powerful.

I would appreciate it is any of the lurkers here were to pipe up if tey think this is a good idea. I don't anticipate Loren or Tos will think better of this than me Cfant or Mike do.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Actually it is a bit too much like a sabotted Plasma R...when you put it that way...it'ld have to huge numbers of restrictions ( like no SP, and IS a limited availiblity drone frame ) but it's a lot of tech levels a head of the Sabotted-R so I don't think there would be a technobable reason to stop it, but maybe a game balanbce reason.

It is the sort of thing you would want to only see one of placed on the board and that would be the sort of thing many GW ships would like to WW away just by itself. A trio of Hydran Hunters would be in big trouble if one of those got on the board...well one member in thr trio would be.

It's not as much bad news as a Sabotted Plasma-R, it's a hell of a lot easier to kill with Phaser and DF heavies and you can auti-kill it with drones and ADDs, but it is still pretty hard core.
SPs, would reduce the number of phaser that could be brought to bear but if you talk about SPs, I'll talk about WWs so there's nothing really productive going on.

Maybe it's worth playtesting it as a limited availibly frame upgrade...i.e. each counts as 2 limited warhead spaces.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Then there's the fact that not many people here seem to think a speed-40 drone is needed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

Why should the plasma boys have all the fun!?!


And since speed 40 plasma already exists and X1 style Ph-3 rapid pulsing isn't all that effective ( 3Ph-3s @ R2 generates about 3 points of plasma warhead reduction whilst 1Ph-1 shot reduces it by 2.416' there isn't much FUN fending off plasma unless the X2 have a better defesive phaser capsity than the X1s...the X1s might aswell not even have Rapid Pulsing when a well timed Plasma Sabot gets placed on the board...so we're going to need some kind of Ph-6 shot to shoot at the Plasma so we might aswell move to speed 40 drones, it's not like the defense against them won't exist until after the speed 40 drones have been invented.

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation