Archive through July 20, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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Archive through July 20, 2003
Because the plasma boys major weapon only lasts one turn, that's why. Drones can last much longer than that, AND they cost no energy to fire, old, or anything else.
I mean, just consider that example above about the X2 frigate and the NCL. You said: "worst case scenario would be one Type VI kills one of you uber drones and 4R2 Ph-1 kills the other". 4 Ph-1s!!! And that against only 1 of these things! No one else will have a prayer against a drone-chucking race that carries these. That's not a cliche, and it isn't jumping to conclusions...it's simple common sense. I'm done with this. Of all the bad ideas I've seen for X2, this is the worst.
Quote:I mean, just consider that example above about the X2 frigate and the NCL. You said: "worst case scenario would be one Type VI kills one of you uber drones and 4R2 Ph-1 kills the other". 4 Ph-1s!!! And that against only 1 of these things! No one else will have a prayer against a drone-chucking race that carries these.
Yeah, but consider the best case scenario.
The NCL has ADD rounds loaded up in its G-rack.
It gets ( best case would be the drones travelling seperately but I'll pretend they are together ) to R3 and tractors one and fires an ADD at the other.
It has a two in three chance of scoring a kill on the First Type XIII and a pertty good chance over the next ( up to ) 7 impulse of killing the one that got tractored.
With 2 BTTY it wouldn't take too much pre-allocation ( 1 point ) and luck to get this kind of killing on those "beyond a prayer" drones.
You could also hurl 12 point or better Photons at these things, but that's taking it a little too far.
Since drones still autokill drones and ESGs are pretty tough the neighbouring races to the biggest drone chuckers of them all will have a pretty good chance of dealing with Type XIII drones particularly if they are limited production frames.
You know, now, that I think about it, I prices the XFF wrong, in that I costed the drones as Type VII, when they shpould be a mix of Type XIII and XI and X...a Type X will probably set the ship back 3 BPV over the Type VII and that means the XFF is about 36 BPV more, or 166, so expect the opponent to have been rather a CCH not an NCL.
Sorry, MJC
Two thumbs down.
I'm outta here too.
I've reconsidered as well. I'm going back to my initial stance. For drones to remain speed 32.
Maybe 40 with Lorens Boosting engine for 8 impulses IIRC. We got away from that. And it seems to be the best alternative. Boosted Drones should certainly be Restricted. Maybe in earlier years even Limited Availability items.
I was thinking to much about all the goodies the Plasma boys got in R10. Which specifically staes that these are in response to the increase in overall drone power.
I'm against 48 damage drones. Just keep the existing X1 drones. Speed upgrade to 40 I would be willing to consider, provided it playtested successfully.
In Y180 non-X drones improve from speed 20 to speed 32, a 60% increase in speed. Range increases by the same percentage. Energy cost to fire does not increase, BPV cost per rack increases by around two points, varying somewhat depending on the types of drones carried. Plasma improves from speed 32 to speed 40 (except on the impulse after launch), a 25% increase. Range improves similarly. The energy cost increases dependent on the size of the torp, as does the BPV cost. Suffice to say that in a free campaign between the Kzinti and Gorns the Kzinti will be the ones looking forward to Y180.
Any improvements to 2X drones should consider how targets can handle Kzinti sized strikes. A single drone from a Fed can be stopped without much problem by tractors, even if it would take the ship's entire armament to kill one drone. With even a small Kzin capable of launching six drones in one turn then following them in with more ready to fire and a SP in the bay, drones need to be stoppable without disproportionate effort.
The reasons I chose double speed for the Drone Booser Pack are several.
1) Being a rehash of the fighter Warp Booster Pack it doubles the speed. X-Drones are speed 32 so the DBP is 64. Sure the X-Drone is variable speed but the DBP should just totally overdrive the engine and be a fixed speed. The drone could be set to speed 20 and would drop to that once the DBP are burned out.
2) Simplicity! Speed 64 is two per impulse. No keeping track of which impulse to move two or anything. Saboted plasma is fine the way it is because there just isn't that many plasma units to keep track of. Drones are more numerous.
3)Short duration. At speed 40 for eight impulses the gain in distance would be for not. No way would I pay BPV for such a little gain. Speed 64 for 4 or 8 impulses moves that drone 8 or 16 hexes in that time (getting your drones into threat range sooner, thus manipulating your opponants movement/plans which is what drones do...mostly.). This is useful against a fast moving opponant but not so dangerous as a multi-turn hyper speed drone would be.
4)Balance: Short range effects of the DBP are mitigated by the restrictions placed on a DBP-drone. There are three:
A) Boost Phase only starts at launch. If a drone fitted with a DBP doesn't launch boosted the DBP is wasted.
B) DBP-Drones take double damage while in boosted mode.
C) If a DBP-Drones strikes its target whil in boosted mode there is a 33% chance it explodes too far from the target and does no damage. (roll 1d6. 5 or 6 = miss)
(designers note: I decided not to give the DBP-Drone an EW effect. The chance to miss is because the drone targeting computers work only so fast and speed 64 is pushing it limits. Earlier we discussed making them harder to hit because of their speed but I decided that, while this is true, their very brightly shinning exhaust plume would balance it out to even odds.)
I would like to discuss the tactics I had in mind with the DBP.
Being limited availability and costing 1/2 BPV each you would typically see some drones on all X2 ships outfitted with DBP-Drones. But where and how?
Typically I would first try the Type VIII loaded with armor. (Oh ya, I forgot, DBP are incompatable with external armor. They are basically fitted in the same place so it one or the other.) I would save this drone for a close in strike to force the opponant to fire on that drone. (A pretty attractive target since damage is doubled. But armor will require some good firing at range.) Either way, he/she will have to do something. It's a big gamble to just count on the Hit/Miss factor.
Another is to launch at long range so my opponant will have to deal with THIS wave THIS turn when normally it could wait. Launch drones so that they exit Boosted Mode 5 or 6 hexes from the target and continue at normal speed.
A third appraoch would be on Type IX drones. Here is a good way to engage small targets at longer ranges (though thye must be ship guided for half the range). What a pain it would be to launch a wave of drones and have your enemy launch four TypeIX at R16 to take them out early.
Lastly, the Type-H-DBP Drone. Planets can reach out sooner to engage earlier or to build up a heavier wave having launched straight Type-H's the DBP-H-Drones the next turn. This tactic could be a good on for ships too.
Of course ther are others but I can't be expected to think of them all. 
Befor eit's asked: Drone vs. Drone interactions remain the same as well for the EW Effect expaination I gave above. This means Drone vs. Drone and ADD fire are also unaffected.
New Drone Module Proposal.
Deceptor Drone. Constructed similarly to a Merv-Warhead Drone the deceptor drone consists of two deceptors and a warhead. This drone is bought as a unit under the same availability restrictions as the MW-Drone.
Small (Type VII frame): Two deceptors and one half space module (explosive or otherwise).
Large (Type VIII frame) Two deceptors and two half space modules.
In both cases there is one module in the forward position.
Deceptors: These are released on a given impulse (noted at launch). They are small drone sub-munitions that travel along side of the main unit and mimic it is all ways. They have an endurance of 32 impulses and take only one point of damage to destroy. They remain in the same hex as the originating drones at all times and are ID'ed as the same type. There is no perceivable difference until the last moment when the drones strike the target. Deceptors have no warhead. Cost: Same as MW-Drones.
I have no objections to a boosted drone, particularly one that's only boosted for a limited period. I do, however, have a major problem with drones that do as much as a plasma R at point blank range. That's just insanity we don't need.
Mike: I guess I should have chimed in on that discussion. I AGREE TOTALLY. And if there was such a drone it's BPV cost should be high... like 8 or 10 each. 48 warhead is bigger than a Type-H and that can never be launched from ships.
Basically lets consider a Romulan with a special Type-R plasma. This new plasma doesn't diminish with range and lasts for three turns. It's a little unstable so phaser damage is opposite and does 2 damage for each one from Phasers. Now give the Rome four of these and require no power cost but it can only launch six from each launch before the launcher burns out.
Not exactly the same thing but just as improbable.
Loren,
Oh, I know the uber-warheads weren't part of your plan! I said from the start that I thought the boosted drones had some definate promise, and had planned to play them in my next playtest match; I just don't know when that's gonna be.
Any comments on the Deceptor Drone?
Loren,
Interesting idea.
Would IDing a deceptor reveal it as a deceptor? It should. Seems to me they'd be too small to stand any kind of in depth analysis.
Presumably the deceptors mymic the drone that was carrying it. Which means that the drone appears to split into three identical targets when deceptors launch. Also if a seeking weapon is targetted on a drone that launches deceptors you roll to see which target the drone tracks.
How much damage will kill a deceptor? Presumably a point or two. Important for ESG's.
How much range do deceptors have? Presumably something that small doesn't have a lot of fuel. 15-30 hexes seems about right.
Presumably deceptors are launched based on the MW drone rules.
Interesting idea.
Would IDing a deceptor reveal it as a deceptor? It should. Seems to me they'd be too small to stand any kind of in depth analysis.
I wasn't going to allow it but maybe at a +1 to the die roll or something.
Presumably the deceptors mymic the drone that was carrying it. Which means that the drone appears to split into three identical targets when deceptors launch. Also if a seeking weapon is targetted on a drone that launches deceptors you roll to see which target the drone tracks.
Yes, random selection for the target.
How much damage will kill a deceptor? Presumably a point or two. Important for ESG's.
{As noted, one point of damage destroys the Deceptor.}
How much range do deceptors have? Presumably something that small doesn't have a lot of fuel. 15-30 hexes seems about right.
Also noted, a deceptor has an edurence of 32 impulses. I'm open to less if its really needed.
Presumably deceptors are launched based on the MW drone rules.
Yes. I'll do a review of the MW rules to be sure but this is modeled on the MW. Basically you replace two Dog Fight Drone munitions with Deceptors and one with some Warhead Module(s).
Quote:Any improvements to 2X drones should consider how targets can handle Kzinti sized strikes.
With two six space X2 C-racks & two X2B-racks, that'ld be, 6 Type XI drones as a standard wave ( perhaps the Type XIII was to much ) which is a total of six 32/10/40 drones using unrefitted ships ( but refitted drones ).
An enemy XCA could dish up 6 bearing Ph-5 shots ( shooting at R2 as Ph-5s ) to destroy 3 incomming drones ( 11/12 chance each ), plus it can proably pull down 2 with bridge as special thingy and it can fire it's own type VII or Type IX of type X or Type XII drones to bring down 2 of the drones.
With the ability to pull down 7 incomming drones ( without touching Tractors or T-bombs or WWs ) and with at least limited Aegis to shoot down the survivors, the Kzinti XCA can't really harm a Fed XCA with a drone swarm.
Against two XDDs, the Kzinti XCA will launch six type XI drones and the DDX kill four of those with Type VII or IX drones.
At range 2 trios of Ph-1s have 215 in 216 chance of killing the Type XI drones, so even if one DDX didn't employ it's phasers the two Type XI drones that needed to be fired on would have a 46,225 in 46,656 chance of stopping them both ( over 99% ).
If a CARa+ and an NCA were fighting against the Kzinti X2 cruiser ( although if following on from the X1s it's more like a BCG & NCA ), then three of the incomming drones can be shot down by Type VIF drones or Type IF drones.
Of the three remaining, one can be tractored by the NCA and killed at it's leasure if need be ( I'm assuming the CARa+ is target of all six drones ) and the CARa+ can fire 2Ph-1s and 1 Ph-3 @ R2.
The CARa+ could but probably didn't load up two 10 point Photons and fired them at the incomming drones at R4 with a 50% chance of killing those remaining drones ( and with four BTTY could but probably didn't tractor both at R2 ).
The 2Ph-1 and 1Ph-3 shots at R2 have a 206 in 216 chance of killing the incomming 32/10/40 drone.
All in all an unrefitted Kzinti XCA just doesn't hurl enough type XI drones around to kill what ever what being sent at it ( on drones alone ).
In the fully refitted state the Kzinti XCA would proabbly have 2X2C-rack, 2X2B-racks and 2X2G-racks. That can hurl 8 Type XI drones ( definately 32/10/40 ).
A Fully refitted Fed XCA can brought down two with the Bridge as special thingy, 2 with it's own G-racks ( at least ) and bear 9Ph-5s.
The four remaining Type XI drones are fired upon at R2 with 8Ph-5s killing 11/12s of them and then the straggler gets killed with the last Ph-5 which could be fired as a Ph-5,1 or 3 depending on how much damage was needed.
When the fully refitted Kzinti XCA launched it's drones at a Fed CX & DDX, the X1s can destroy two of the drones each with type VII or IX drones.
The remaining four can be dealt with by tractoring 2 with the CX and spending 3R3 Ph-1 ( I'll assume the DDX was the target of all the drones ) on each of the two remaining drones, killing each with a 215/216 chance.
When the fully refitted Kzinti XCA fires on GW ships, it'll likely be firing the drones on a CARa+, NCA and an NCL.
The GW ships can put up six type IF drones to shoot down six of the incomming drones and then the NCL muct direct it's Phasers against the two remaining drones so it tractors one drone at R2 with BTTY and fire at R2, 3Ph-1s and 1 Ph-3 to auto-kill the last drone.
It seems to me from these numbers that speed 40 drones or even speed 40 drones with warheads that inflict 8 points of damage per half space module nor speed 40 drones with slightly tougher frames, will not give the drone user a blank cheque with which to generate damage, but rather the inate ability at every tech level of ships to defens themselves against drones is increased through the appropriate BPV of the X2 ship and it's drones to the point that each tech level is able to defend it'self against the standard one turn chuck of an X2 Kzinti vessel of matching BPV.
Note that since the X2 vessels have quite a debate going on, on which Ph-6 would be used, I didn't use a Ph-6 shots but rest assured the rapid pulsed Ph-6 shots of the X2 will be even better at shooting down that speed 40 Kzinti drone swarm.
Ya know, not EVERYTHING has to change from X1 to X2. The drones in service for X1 are fine for the X2 era.
I mean seriously, this is out of hand.
Upgrades and new systems for:
Shields
Heavy Weapons
Phasers
Drones
Lab
Hull (SIF)
Speed
Systems (S-Bridge stuff)
We don't need all this to make a fun, more adanced ship. The reason why the BPVs you guys have been posting are so HUGE is because of this massive upgrade to everything.
These ships still need to fight GW ships. They should probably lose to an X1 ship at least 50% of the time.
You are not going to be able to accomplish both those needs by upgrading everything.
CFant, you'll be glad to know for my proposal I'm not upgrading some of the stuff on that list. I've decided that shields should get a small size increase and 4 point batteries. Nobody, but nobody isn't going to use some of their reserve for shield reiforcement. Bigger batteries ARE a shield improvement.
Drones stay the same but some new modules get invented.
Speed is currently maxed at 31 but I'm tossing around the idea of a high power cost speed increase to 32 (like 6+ times MC for the 32'nd hex plus placed under the effects of EM).
Hull, ya I still want a ASIF.
S-Bridge...? Well, ya, of course.
Lab??? I have really no upgrade to Lab other than to let it work on X2 stuff.
Weapons...well absolutly. Could do X2 with out that. That's the guts of the change.
I have a couple new systems. One is the Drogue Bay. A small bay for Drogues only. To small to land a shuttle but hit on shuttle. If you don't buy a drogue for the bay then you have a free shuttle hit.
Also, the Cargo Transporter. In all ways opperates as two separate transporters but are actually one large unit able to transport large items in one combined action (like a fully assembled truck or other things). Thing that require more than two transporter actions would still require multiple transports.
I think most everything has to change.
If not why not create X1R!?!
Quote:These ships still need to fight GW ships. They should probably lose to an X1 ship at least 50% of the time.
The X1s should loose to X2 about half of the time, if the X2 is one ship class smaller, that is; X1 Destroyers fight X2 Frigates in a fair match, and so on.
Cfant,
I agree to some extent. Not everything has to be improved, and in some cases even very minor improvements will do. Slight increases in shielding and power are fine. Heavy weapons need a change, I think...they are at the heart of every new generation from EY to X1. I don't think they need monster changes, though, to be viable. I do fully agree that if you change everything, you'll end up with a grossly unbalanced system. However, I don't think anyone necessarly wants ALL these changes; we've just been debating the merits of each one. Personally, I think drones should stay pretty much the same as X1, ship speed should NEVER go above 31, and that heavy weapon improvments don't have to be drastic to work.
Actually for X2 everything should and would be improved but the game only represents the game level aspects and so many improvements are not reflected (like better UI and easier maintainance or more durable parts).
Some things, like wise, might decline for a time ntil the bugs are worked out. The new warp engines might provide a power source that makes the Chocolate Supreme Cake from the Replicators taste like is was sweetened with "Sweet and Low".
Again, not reflected in the game.
Rules wise, some things should stay the same. It would be unfortuate if you had to relearn every aspect of piloting a Starship to play X2. That would suck.
Loren...
Of all the things we have gotten......
THe phasers are undergoing a major change. Comparitively, I think the Heavy weapons should only get minor tweaks.
The S-bridge. I really hate this idea, as I do not think a fleet of X2 ships will ever need to use a phaser on drones, since the S-bridge will just turn them all off.
Ships should never go above 31.
Also, your other ideas are just improving everything. Transporters really don't need a push. On the Drogue bay thing, I don't think that should be allowed. A Drogue is a wartime unit, and there should be a penalty for a peactime vessal carrying one, I.E. giving up a shuttle.
I don't mind the SIF. I do think that we really need to go back an d redress it, since as it is, on top of all the other ideas, even combining 3 or 4 ideas of these will result in a ship that is going to be FAR to expensive.
Cfant,
Maybe we should look at this differently, not as a coherent proposal, but as a smorgasbord. That's what SVC can, should and will see it.
Of course we can't use everything we discuss here. There will always be more good ideas than space to include them.
Define a set of ideas you like as a kind of "Cfants's X2 feature set". That's what Loren's doing. Loren has not been elected the Class Secretary, nor has anyone decreed his proposal be the only integrated X2 proposal to come out of this discussion.
We do have a lot of common ground so it may look that way.
I think it would be great if several proposals resulted from this. Especially several distinctly different proposals.
CFant: John T. is right. I can only propose my own ideas and to integrate everyones ideas would be...well, I don't think anyone wants that.
Am I pushing for my ideas? Yes, I like them but when someone points out a good reason it sucks I then stop liking that idea.
So, to that end I would like to point out the current state of the S-Bridge. I put a limit on the number of Seeking Weapons it can turn off to one. Since a S-Bridge can perform only one function per turn it can stop exactly one SW per turn. In the most unlikely event of a Fleet of 10 X2 ships, then the total would be ten SW turned off and the whole fleet could use any other function for the rest of the turn. (If playtesting demands this could also be the first function off the list.)
The damage out put of Heavy Weapons, so far for me, are not drastically greater than X1 but, in general, have a bit further reach. The Photon is the most finicky of all the heavy weapons in that any change to hit using a whole number is too great. I think I came up with a good solution but can be toned down easilly enough if playtesting demands.
Drogue Bay: We can disagree here. I think the reasons I gave for the designers to include them (and Admirals) are logical. Shuttles are far more expencive but in the current environment of Y205 (and the Trade Wars and the unavoidable rebuilding and reclaiming of Empires) require ships to keep their shuttle alotments. The Big XCC only gets two Drogue Bays giving them a fair alotement of drogue options for the dangerous environment they are in. Drogues are not just War Units. They have Scientific Uses too. You could buy more drogues by replacing shuttles, too.
I'll just hit on the Nation Rebuilding thing real quick. The ISC reduced all the Nations down to their core areas. This is huge areas of Space now non-alined. Then the Andro came and everybody went full force against them.(I asked SVC what was happening during Op Unity back home and he replied that everyone was busy doing every thing they could to support OpU.) Now, SVC could just say all the borders popped back to their original form via a treaty or something but I think it would be the first really unimaginative thing he's ever done. There is a rich world of possibilities here in the rebuilding and reclaiming of the Nations. Full of conflict, intregue, politics and compation. Will the borders really be as they were? The whole GW was about teritory. Is every one so shocked by the Andros that the old wounds are forgotten?
I remind you all, WW1 was the War to End all Wars. WW2 was very shocking and petty conflicts continue. And we don't even consider ourselves as a Warior race!
Rant off. Sorry if I bug...
Well, ok. I just remember that all of these things are just ideas, and not all of them, or perhaps any of them will be used.
As for drones, the X1 frames should remain the standard drones, new modules are fine, as long as they don't completely blow away GW ships with limited Anti-Drone ability.
I feel that any drone over speed 32 is just begging for trouble. If the Kzin can launch a spread of 6 or 12 (with SP) speed 64 drones, that is really going to put the hurt on anybody. Especially the phaser light races, such as Hydran or Romulan.
Assuming the standard drone of the day will be the Type VII (6/18) drone, and this drone will be used by all ships, GW ships being refitted to this standard. Drones are going to become holy terrors.
X1 Kzinti are already scarry in groups of two or three, and a whole X-squadron is really terrifying in the number of drones they can chuck.
If we assume that the crack combat units of the day will still be the X1 ships (they are designed for combat after all, while X2 is back to the multi-role duty) I'm really not sure than the drones even need to be touched.
They decoy drone idea of Lorens will be hugely overpowering.
Imagine a wave of 6 drones, that suddely turns into 10 or 12. Which ones do I shoot at? If I am a X1 ship I could have easily killed the 6 drones, but now I have 12 to deal with and if I hit the decoys with 2 or 3 shots then I will take enough damage to cripple my ship. In my opinion that makes Loren's idea far too overwhelming.
As for the S-bridge. Even having the ability to knock out 1 drone a turn FOR FREE is way too much. There is a reason that scouts are purpose built, and graying the lines between a scout and a stadard ship is a dangerous track to take.