That is a good way to look at it tactically but I hate to call them Underloads rules wise.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 11:36 am: Edit

Oh, I know. That's why I said I look at that way, but don't call it that. Underloads are a no-no...they're on the auto-reject list.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 04:29 pm: Edit

It all sounds good here.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 05:56 am: Edit

---

Quote:

That isn't particularly fair, as there is no difference in power cost. Overloads should require more power than a standard, and I can't see any reason to justify how one 10 point photon is a standard, and another 10 point photon is overloaded. It doesn't make sense.

---

---

Quote:

And as a 10 point STANDARD it is far more flexable and powerful exept it can't fir at R0-1. It gives you that warhead with unlimited range (to 40) and a more powerful proximity warhead. It should have some limitation with the great new benefit and that is you can't fire it at R0-1. However, all you need to do is add one point of power to OL it. In this way it makes it a little harder to suddenly OL 8 point standards but you are flying an X2 ship. Be aware. You get a lot but not everything.

---

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

So someone get me up to speed. What's the latest version of the X2-Photon?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit

There are several. Not alot of agreement here.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 10:18 pm: Edit

RBN: This is my latest proposal and the one I'm arguing for.

Advanced Photon Torpedoes for X2

New arming level for Standard load
Photons armed from 8 to 10 points are considered standard. All standard armed Photon Torpedoes can be fitted with a proximity fuse. The warhead is halved. Warheads of 9 points would yield damage of 4.5 but would then be rounded down to 4 each. Obviously there is not much point to a 9 point proximity fuse Photon torpedo.

Fast Loads
Same as X1; Maximum warhead of 12 points.

Overloads
The maximum Over Load warhead for X2 Photon Torpedoes is 20 points. Overloaded Photon Torpedoes over 16 points are called "Critical Overload" or just “Critical”.

Fast loads: Fast loaded torpedoes CANNOT be brought to Critical levels on the same turn in which they were armed by any means. Fast load standards could be held on the subsequent EA and brought to Critical during that EA or later with reserve warp. Fast-Overloads cannot be held therefore cannot ever be brought to critical levels.

Restrictions: All Critical Overload Photons cannot be held. Warheads over 16 points cannot be held over a turn break. (I.e. if critical overloaded with reserve warp on impulse 30 and not fired the torpedo would be considered lost at the end of the turn. It could be fired on impulse 31 or 32.)
Note: When bringing a photon to Critical on a third or subsequent turn holding energy for the previous warhead must be paid first, then the additional energy to bring it to critical level can be applied (either during EA or with reserve warp). All overloads, critical or not, have a maximum range of 8.

ADVANCED PHOTON TABLE

RANGE	0-1	-2-	3-4	5-8	9-10	11-15	16-30	31-40
HIT(STD)	N/A	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-3	1-2	1	0
HIT(PROX)	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2
HIT(OL)	1-6	1-5	1-4	1-3	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
DAMAGE(ALL)	---	---	---	VAR	IES	---	---	---

Notice the new range bracket at 9-10 and 31-40. The Hit standard for R31+ is intentional. If you can gain a die shift then there is a chance for a standard photon to hit at those ranges. Otherwise the Proximity is the only way. I would note that a ship at R40 could get a 1-4 chance to hit with a X-die roll shift and a LWO. Thats a possible (4 x 5 pt prox) 20 points out to R40. Not common but sigificant.

Re. the R9-10 bracket. There is significant risk in trying for this range for Proximity Photons in that it will be pretty easy for the enemy to get to R8 for an OL Alpha. The exchange would be...uneven. This is why I think the bracket is not a problem. You will have to be very savy to take advantage of it.

And that points to my personal vision of X2. X2 should be a new fronteer for veteran SFBers. It should be nessasary to develope new tactics and new savy. But don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a new system. It should remain entirely SFB.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

I'll take a stab at this, but I've got to get my thoughts together. Rolling around some ideas from this thread, X1-fix, P6, my noggin, et al.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Well, I don't like your 31-40 bracket, Loren. A raw 8-point X2 photon should not have worse hit chances than an 8-point X1 photon; and the X1 photon is 1/1-3 out to 40.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Crimany in a Bucket!

Steven E. Ehrbar: You are right. I had been looking at a chart that was marked X1 but was just the standard chart. Yes, the chart should be adjusted by eliminating the R31-40 bracket and extenting the range of the previous bracket to 40. Thanks for the catch, I'm so embarased! I should have looked closer at a real X1-SSD.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 03:44 pm: Edit

And I had to go and change all my SSDs now too!

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 02:37 am: Edit

Well, with that cleared up, I'll reserve judgement on the rest of the table changes until they've been playtested.

By Shannon Nichols (Scoot) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:47 am: Edit

X2 photons use their arming power better. 1-4pts of power generates 3pts of damage. So the standard torpedo would go to 12pts. Power to overload a torpedo would generate 2pts damage for each point of power put in. This would give a max 20pt photon. If the fast load option remains the same, then a 16pt overloaded photon in one turn would be possible. Also assumming that heavy weapons do not get improvements in their chances to hit with EW, give the photon a built in 2pts of ECCM.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 07:02 am: Edit

Shannon,

We've been round and round about the photon, and did indeed talk about all of those options at one point or other. The problem is that you can dish out 80 points of photons on one turn, then another 64 points eight impulses later by fastloading. That's a whole lot of damage...more than a BB can dish out in the same period, in fact.

I did a couple of playtests using a 10 point photon with 20 point overloads and 12 point fastloads, and found it too much. Granted two playtests isn't enough, but the two successive volleys in two turns like that pretty much ended the game.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Going back on my word. The heavy phaser idea sort of didn't fly, so I figured it was back to the drawing board for the photon. By meshing some of the ideas we've previously tossed around, I think I have a good compromise that won't break anything and will both keep the photon consistent and still encourage two turn arming.

Basically, the photon will use the same table as from X1, in terms of to hit numbers. The damage base has been increased by 25% so that standards are 10 points, and proxies are 5. Fastloads are still limited to 12, and you can still only dump a max of six points of power per turn into a photon. Now, though, you can overload your photon past 16 points on a two-turn cycle. If overloaded up to 16, nothing changes. But, if you overload past 16, you are loading a "hot load" torpedo. This type of overload can be up to 20 points, and hits as normal. However, it must be fired on the turn arming is completed, and any tube that fires a hot load can't fire again for a full 32 impulses. You can arm the tube in question up to the normal six point per turn limit; but you can't fire it until the 32 impulese is past. This photon has several benefits, I think:

• It retains the rule of no more than six points in a tube per turn.
• It gives a reason to two-turn arm.
• It prevents super-overloads being followed up in eight impulses by fastloads.
• It keeps the photon flavor by not messing about with the to-hit table.
• It's easy to use.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Maybe removing the X1 fast-load is the way to go.

One could argue that fast-loading photons put too much wear and tear on the torpedo tubes. In the Andromedan War, this increased maintenance was acceptable. In The Trade Wars, it isn't.

Then, either increase the warhead to 24, or increase the accuracy, and increase the overload range to 10.

From the playtests, fast-loads with a 20 point OL and 10 point standard seem to be too much.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Here's a thought. Can overloads completely. Instead of putting in power over multiple turns for bigger warheads, say that each tube can hold up to 12 points of power, for a max of three standard 8 point photons. They can be launched every turn, sort of like a rapid-fire photon cannon. With four tubes, and three each, you could conceivably launch 12 torpedoes in one turn; either all at once, or spread out as you please. Total damage would be 96; the same as with 24 pointers. But, you get many more opportunities to hit, and you can load as little or as many (up to the limit) as you like. One table, incorporating the best "to hits" for all the modes tied together. Radical, I know, but definately a different spin on it.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Something like replacing the 4 OLs you can fire now with 12 standard 8-pointers and no OL feature? Is the prox fuse still an option?

Suddenly that 9-12 bracket doesn't seem so bad.

Definately a radical change.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Exactly. Rapid-fire for better mizia results, much better flexibility, and more chances to hit. Given that bit Steve put in P6, I might just tinker with this idea.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:21 pm: Edit

One thing about making the Fed throw 12 dice for its alpha strike instead of 4, is that more dice you throw, the closer to average you'll be.

With 12 torpedos, the probability table looks like this:

X	1-3	1-4
0	0.02%	0.0002%
1	0.29%	0.005%
2	1.61%	0.05%
3	5.37%	0.33%
4	12.08%	1.49%
5	19.34%	4.77%
6	22.56%	11.13%
7	19.34%	19.08%
8	12.08%	23.84%
9	5.37%	21.20%
10	1.61%	12.72%
11	0.29%	4.62%
12	0.02%	0.77%

With 12 photons and a 50/50 chance to hit with each one, there's a 5/6 chance of doing 4,5,6,7 or 8 hits. And with a 1-4 roll, that same 5/6 applies to doing 6-10 hits.

What do the numbers mean?
With 12 dice, the jackpot is almost eliminated, as well as the clean miss.

But then, that's why Feds are stronger in 3-4 ship squadrons than the individual ships. Suddenly the admiral can count on a relatively known amount of damage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

...and his ship has ceased to act like a Fed.

It's a klingon with a bad turn mode and a gatling disruptor.

You don't get the high higs you don't get the low lows, just averages.

At first blush, the idea gets a "bleah" from me.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

...and his ship has ceased to act like a Fed.

---

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I'm not sure I HAVE P6.

But if you end up getting it in text form, post it at "Link to CL23 X1 changes"

Being able to get a dependable average damage out of a photon has been the dream of SFB statisticians everywhere. For me, it creates an "average" weapon, therefore a bland one.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

I asked Steve for permission to copy the article and post it. He said okay, so with luck I'll get it done tonight. He's got some VERY different stuff listed in it, and even a few "definates."

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit

That's strange, SVC comments since then have thrown the doors wide open for whatever we wanted. He didn't iply any definites.