Hmmm...So Excess Damage is the ships hull just not the living part, so as long as you have Hull or Excess Damage the ASIF would work. If you runn out of Excess...well then it doesn't matter.
Tie it to Damage Control...I could see that. SO a cruiser gets Eight free hull hits per turn. OK but it needs to sort of filter in so that damage is distributed and hull does take damage along the way. Other wise it's a hull shield. Why not say that it absorbes the first every other hull hit up to the maximum. If there is no hull left then each hit that would hit hull feeds through.

Example: A damaged ship (two hull left) takes takes 6 hull hits. The first hits the (1)ASIF, the Hull(2), (3) ASIF, (4) last hull box, 5 ASIF, (6) would be hull but feeds to next column.

It's not a KISS issue to do it this way. I'll bet it would only take one game to figure it out. If you want things too simple then play the card game.

BTW: We should consider a two ASIF hit to one power ratio. On the ship 2 power gets you a whole set of shields and is reenforced with 1:1. A 2:1 ratio would be something inbetween that and a reason not to just put it into specific shield reinforcement.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:12 pm: Edit

What if the first hull hit of a volley hits a hull box, then the SIF kicks in to protect as many hull boxes as it can. Once the hull is gone, the SIF still holds the ship together, but doesn't absorb damage.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Then its protection very shallow and could still leave the ship brittle when to comes to damage. I am assuming you are referring to the sort of protection that regenerates every turn power is paid for the ASIF effect. That's what most people here seem to like.

Dending on the protection aforded by the ASIF, a solid blast of internals will blow away all the hull despite the ASIF and then were will you be?

Too much protection and the ship is too hard to hurt because it is renewed every turn. Too little an you lose the protection too fast. Given the high damage output of X2 weapons, there may not be much or any middle-ground.

the best way of running something like this would be something like 20-40 points of one-time (as opposed to regenrating every turn) protection that take damage and regenerates like a shield.

We might even let it "leak".

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:45 pm: Edit

That's what I meant.

The SIF recharges every turn, but for every volley that scores hull hits, one leak point hits a hull box.

When the hull is gone, the SIF is gone too.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:48 pm: Edit

But that's the problem.

One good burst and there is no hull and there could be no ASIF.

A ASIF that makes sure its around for a second burst might be so good that the ships are functionally invulnerable.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:52 pm: Edit

I thought the SIF only protected hull boxes. WHen they're gone, what's it supposed to protect?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

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If you want a ASIF that still uses the hull method, you simply decouple it from the existence of hull boxes.

It absorbs hull hits every round equal to the energy you put into it, max energy = to the ship's damcon. it doesn't matter whether the ship actually has hull or not.

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What if the first hull hit of a volley hits a hull box, then the SIF kicks in to protect as many hull boxes as it can. Once the hull is gone, the SIF still holds the ship together, but doesn't absorb damage.

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Dending on the protection aforded by the ASIF, a solid blast of internals will blow away all the hull despite the ASIF and then where will you be?

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the best way of running something like this would be something like 20-40 points of one-time (as opposed to regenrating every turn) protection that take damage and regenerates like a shield.

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By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

I don't think the SIF should cover Excess Damage. If you're taking ExDam hits, your ship is already doomed.

No sence adding extra bookkeeping for a ship that's going to die.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 12:48 am: Edit

One of the effects of an ASIF is that games will result in ships that are weaponless but still can disengage having the power and the hull to do so. In the X2 era where the loss of these ships is even a greater one that should be the situation. I like the mix of mine and John Trauger's of Jan. 25 1:16 PM. It's not that hard and varies with the hull size (as it is attached to the Dam Con, wich is less on smaller ships.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 08:16 pm: Edit

I am mulling over a new concept for the ASIF.

The first idea is that normal operation takes no additional power. Ships with an operating ASIF take no casualties from hull of cargo hits. 50% of the cargo in a destroyed cargo box on a ship with an ASIF is recoverable when the cargo box is destroyed. Shuttles/fighters that are in a destroyed shuttle box are crippled but not destroyed and cannot operate until the shuttle box they are in is repaired. Ready Racks are repaired when the box is so their condition is not relevant.

An ASIF can be reinforced. When reinforced, in addition to the above, it absorbs the first of every two hull or cargo hits equal to the number of power points put into it. The amount of power put into reinforcing an ASIF cannot exceed 1/2 total number of undestroyed hull and cargo on the ship (round up).

A reinforced ASIF can be used to facilitate easier emergency repair on Hull, Barracks, Cargo and shuttle bays. One point of energy into the ASIF per box repaired for this purpose reduces the repair cost in half and counts as 1/2 a system towards CDR repairs. EDR would repair two such systems on a successful attempt. This system is not used for other repairs and does not apply to strategic repairs. This is simply using energy fields to shore up support beams and temporarily plug hull breaches while repair crews clear the area and weld in panels etc.
This system does not apply to the repair of Weapons or other systems because their damage is not based on simply re-welding girders and clearing the way.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 08:57 pm: Edit

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An ASIF can be reinforced. When reinforced, in addition to the above, it absorbs the first of every two hull or cargo hits equal to the number of power points put into it. The amount of power put into reinforcing an ASIF cannot exceed 1/2 total number of undestroyed hull and cargo on the ship (round up).

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Please note that there is benefit with out power. When reinforced ASIF then can stop some internals. Also note, you cannot use Spec. Reinforcement on a down shield. This is where the Reinforced ASIF comes in most handy. Also, with this proposal, the ASIF eases repair. It also preserves lives which is the original intention of my first proposal back in the beginning. Starship crews are very valuable and the latter years of the GW show that very well. In this era you have a situation where just about every one knows just how dangerous Starship duty is. Some races will be less affected in the moral camp than others but still, crews cost big bucks to train. Preserving life is everyones priority. Starships, no matter how powerful, are useless with out sufficiant crew.

Also, note that power to reinforcing the ASIF covers damage from all directions. So, you have a situation where you have a down shield but manage to keep it away from the enemy. You reinforced the ASIF to be sure. The enemy strikes another shield and scores internals. The beauty of it is that you are covered 360°.

If a big volley come in the down shield you could use reserve power to strengthen you ship.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Also, the presense of the ASIF, if functioning, would give the ship a second HET bonus.

I'm also thinking that it will resist TR Beams specifically in that each point into reinforcement will stop one internal before any are rolled.

A functioning ASIF will lessen the damage from smashing into a web. It shortens the recovery period after an E-Decel.

There will be two HR boxes that can be guarded. The ASIF can be rendured non-functional this way or by the ship becoming uncontrolled. Aditionally, a ship that has just been captured will have it's ASIF become non-operating and must be restarted like other systems by the new crew.

A cloaked ship must spend one more point of power to cloak while the ASIF is operational.

The ASIF can be turned off or on at any point of any turn. It must be announced when a change is made (cloaked ships must record it for review after the senario is over). The change takes place during the Initial Activity Phases the following impulse after the change is announced. Alternatively, it can be turned on or off during Energy Allocation. It becomes active during EA and can be reinforced during that EA.

A non-operating ASIF cannot be reinforced and cannot be allocated for unless the ASIF is currently operating.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 01:23 pm: Edit

Ooops, I posted this in the X2 Generic hull topic. I forgot about this one.

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I just thought of where you would apply power to an ASIF on the EAF. On the Life Support row. Any power beyond Life Support is the power for the ASIF. So as a rule, you couldn't opperate an ASIF with out powering Life Support. This can fit with all the powered ASIF proposals and requires no change to the EAF.
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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 07:34 pm: Edit

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I just thought of where you would apply power to an ASIF on the EAF. On the Life Support row. Any power beyond Life Support is the power for the ASIF. So as a rule, you couldn't opperate an ASIF with out powering Life Support. This can fit with all the powered ASIF proposals and requires no change to the EAF.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 08:13 pm: Edit

I'd prefer a captain always have an otion to pay for his ASIF.

It should not be required.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 08:41 pm: Edit

You must have read that the wrong way.


He has the option of paying for the A.S.I.F or not paying for the A.S.I.F.
What is required to do is pay for his S.I.F. before he pays for his A.S.I.F.!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

...which is a componeent of life support?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 04:28 pm: Edit

This is as good a place as any for this.

Second Generation Armor Rules:

(XD4.12) Some Second Generation Romulan ships use a powered form of armor. It acts as normal armor if un-powered and if damaged is permanently destroyed. Mark such damage with a full “X”. Powered armor is energized with one point of power in the shield line of the EAF. (Write the power for shields then a “/” then the power to Energize Armor.)

Energized Armor operates as normal armor but can be repaired using the shield repair rules (D9.2). Armor that is damaged while energized is marked with a dot or single slash.

This would be used on ships of the Eagle design. These ships would not have an ASIF. In my proposal the Romulan Design Bureau resposible for the original War Bird produces an X2 Eagle two years before the other X2 ships are ready. These ships are quickly produced to secure the Empire, forming the battle line between Romulus and the Gorns/Federation. (They don't trust that they wont be attack during thisw period of vunerability.) As the new X2 Hawk types are produced the X2 Eagles are scaled back to just a few new builds. This is NOT a conversion ship. It also doesn't have some of the newest technology. The first couple ships produced in Y205 are designed to be armed with Ph-5's but have Ph-1s until Y206. A larger Plasma is not available to them so it carries two Plasma-M.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Powered armor does tap-dance on the edge of Franchise Trek concepts.

And if we use the energized version of the ASIF, which only protects hull boxes, this could even be a superior system.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Armour boxes should simply be protected by the A.S.I.F. in the same way the A.S.I.F. works but since all Armour boxes must be destroyed before internal damage is generated the coupling of the two would be better than having an A.S.I.F. and few more HULL boxes.


Now If you wish to say that in the structural integity rules that ships with armour boxes are increadibly powerful because the power of BTTYs may be funnelled into the Armour boxes ( but no more than the current Dam Con rating per box ) then that would be okay too.
All it'll really do is mean that a ship with one downed shield that gets hit with a surprise enveloper ( Plasma or Hellbore ) can get the 1:1 ratio of SSReo even though that one shield is down...but it'll only retain that ability until the last Armour Box is blown.


I think repairing by D7.9 is a little too strong ( particular since X1 ships already get free D7.9 repair in addition to their energy based Dam Con Repair ) but...


Whatever the Armour boxes do I'ld say they should just be a natural part of the A.S.I.F. and have a SPECIAL BENEFITS rule written into the A.S.I.F. if you feel that LIKE EXTRA HULL BOXES BUT BETTER BECUASE NO A3, A4, A10 or A11 HITS CAN OCCOUR WHILST STILL ACTIVE is too weak for your tastes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:44 am: Edit

Powered Armor is a common concept well before and beyond any Star Trek Franchise.

In fact, didn't the Brittish just develope real powered armor?

THe concept here is that this Design Bureau was not given all the latest technologies but came up with an effective ship anyway. The is an old Political Family that created this. My back story has most of that family killed in Operation Remus. This is the big comeback for that family both in terms of Political presence and economic rehabilitation. There is no ASIF on this ship. It uses these Powered Armor Rules. Powered Armor and a ASIF disrupt each other and are incompatable.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 10:08 am: Edit

IIRC Powered Armor is one of the things on the Auto reject list. Course 2X is one of the things listed as well.

If this had come out before Enterprise then it might be allowable. But the Steves aren't going to take any sort of chance that might bring the Paramount Vultures circling.

Which is also one of my primary reservations about the entire ASIF concept.

Frankly I was amazed that the Fed CF looked the way it did.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:38 pm: Edit

That's kind of the point.

We can have all the literary and RW precedence but if it draws a lawsuit it'll come down to the $$$. And the $$$ will say "drop powered armor."

Anyway, it's just a hair different from the "hull box defending" ASIF. it just defends armor, which is better.

Start it with no ASIF and give it an ASIF refit. KISS.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:53 pm: Edit

In the final analisys powering simply makes the old rules repairable. It's up the ADB of course and it is only on one ship but I rether like it and don't see a lawsuite as possible. They won't spend money on one with out saying "SVC, that's no good for us. Please drop that." That would be the end of it. But like I said before, it's the British Technology.