| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 10:18 am: Edit |
Nah, you might talk me into one that can change speeds but not one that stacks rocket motors. Too complex, too just wierd.
| By Paul Rae (Soapyfrog) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 10:32 am: Edit |
I like Dwight's idea. Makes sense, and is simple.
Reminds me vaguely of the final stage pop-up of a harpoon missile (making the missile extremely difficult to engage with point defence)... sort of same concept... when the drone reaches terminal range, it accelerates to give the defences less time to react.
I suppose it would have a weaker warhead or less endurance or both.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 12:03 pm: Edit |
Ok, really simple:
Standard TypeIVF, or TypeIF, must have ATG. Can can change speed once per turn, on a preset impulse. 3 Turn endurance. Call it the TypeIv or TypeIVv. v for "variable" Have the cost be 1 BPV in addition to the fast motor and ATG.
| By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 03:53 pm: Edit |
MJC, I'm not sure how your example follows from the rules you've written. My reading of it is that on impulse 24 (after the primary's 8 impulse burn stage--it doesn't have a change stage since it is what starts out), they accelerate to speed 32. They then run out of endurance on impulse 8 of the next turn.
Note that by the time the drone is introduced, the standard Kzinti drone configuration is 2xC, 2xB, thus able to launch 6 drones/turn. With 2 control channels per drone, the maximum it can get using these is an 8 drone wave, If its willing to spend the speed, it could get a 12 drone wave. Given that, I suspect the power cost is worth the extra drones.
| By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 03:58 pm: Edit |
Cfant. A good start, but IMHO the 1 BPV cost and pre-plotting the speed change (I assume you mean that both the impulse of change and the new speed must be plotted at launch) is too cheap. I'd suggest also requring at least 1/2 a payload space and maybe some sort of myoptic zone (the latter to avoid making them too strong against point defenses and especially becoming basebusters extrodinaire).
Note, I'm assuming the bus must be fast and any speed could be picked (eg it could go speed 24 if that was the desired speed).
| By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 05:31 pm: Edit |
I like cfants idea, but why limit the drone to one speed change. Allow the drone to have multiple speed changes programed and even a free change, at a cost of 1end. per speed change over 1 and 1 extra end for using the free speed change. Also why limit them to ATM, allow all variable speed drones to use preprogramed speed changes and if it is a guided drone, allow the controller to broadcast the free speed change at a cost of 1 extra control channel as well as the above costs.
| By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 05:46 pm: Edit |
Like I said - MJC's system is, once again, vastly too complicated.
I like Dwight's idea; it might have appeared as a short-term upgrade around Y175 when the Klinks were first trying to make speed-32 drones.
Failing that, the simple speed-changing drone (as CFant and I suggested). The only problem is in why anyone would bother, given that unexpectedly slow drones always get more attention.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 05:59 pm: Edit |
See, I don't see why this thing would have to take up a payload space. Just make the thing have a variable speed. I can't really see how or why this would be used, except to maybe get though asteroids or something. I can see it being used to create a massive drone wave, but you can do that though Crazy Drone Tricks.
Maybe have the drone pump up to max speed when it gets into the ATG range.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 07:31 pm: Edit |
D.L.:
Quote:of all the drone-ing idea's the only drone upgrade or mod I would wish to see is a drone bus/ warhead combo that puts the drone as a sleeper in a sense. A drone that goes at one speed then when in atg range goes to a faster velocity
Quote:Too complex, too just wierd.
Quote:MJC, I'm not sure how your example follows from the rules you've written. My reading of it is that on impulse 24 (after the primary's 8 impulse burn stage--it doesn't have a change stage since it is what starts out), they accelerate to speed 32. They then run out of endurance on impulse 8 of the next turn.
| By Dwight Lillibridge (Nostromo) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 08:35 am: Edit |
MJC I wasn't trying ot use a part of your idea in what I suggested. sorry. I just stated, like so many idea's I have had with other gamers around where i live and sometimes get to play a game or two against. some of the gamers i have played with would like to have weapons and defence systems that mimick some of the real world tech around. this drone idea was one of them.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 07:13 pm: Edit |
Well most of SFB is 20th Centery Real Military stuff worked into the game.
That being said.
If you steal my Genius ideas and turn them into mere workable concepts...I'll be a whole lot happier than if I was still stuck with unworkable genius.
.
Heck. If I was afraid that I might kickoff something chaotic that goes somewhere I'm not intending:- I wouldn't have posted...or I would simply be a coward.
Posting an idea really is a sign that says...it's okay to mess with this idea. It's not set in concrete yet.
| By Ryan Peck (Trex) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 07:38 pm: Edit |
I read somewhere this idea was suggested and already rejected. Seeing how it is up here, I will forward my idea (using MJC's name)
Seahorse Drones:
Devloped a year or two before fast drones. The scienists were still figuring the details of the fast drone, in the interm they built a drone with a shorter range, but an engine that was capable of short bursts of speed.
treated like a regular drone. Cannot have ATG. Moves at speed 20. Endurance is 2 turns (cannot be extended). On any impulse after launch the controling ship can increase the speed to 32. The drone can only maintain this speed for 16 impulses then reverts back to speed 20.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 09:56 pm: Edit |
Actually the Rejection was what got me thinking.
IIRC, the idea of varrible speed ( and or POP UP ) drones has been sujested many times.
I though that if lots of people want a varrible speed drone but have never HOG-TIED the drone enough to make it a only margianally more effective than current drones.
I figured if I hog-tied the drone enough so that it would be liked by those that want varrible speed drone but not ruin the game but not ruin the game.
But I guess I put too many restriction on it.
| By Jeff Williams (Jeff) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 05:24 am: Edit |
I still don't care for the payload idea. We've already established that drones can change speed wile using a single motor with ECM drones.
These are NOT solid-fuel rockets that have to be burned through in stages, but rather miniature warp drives with limited (cheap) navigation and guidance systems. To simplify things for mass-production, most drones are just set to run at max speed for their entire duration (2 speeds: on and off).
In theory, a limited (restricted?) number of drones can be made with more advanced guidance controls that can be programmed to change speeds under set conditions (NOT changable after launch, just like you can't change targets). Now obviously, these would be more expensive than normal drones (1 BPV? 2? 5? 10?) and fielded in far fewer numbers.
But these changes shouldn't require any PHYSICAL restrictions on the drone itself.
Now then, does this mean this drone has a place in SFB? Possibly, although it's usefullness would be limited to certain tactical situations that most experienced players know how to work around to begin with. I think it's most effective use would still be to confuse enemy drone defenses.
At the very least, I think it's worthy of playtesting.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 08:58 am: Edit |
J.W.:
Actually with the ECM drone as a basis it becomes clear that not only need the drone not need new drone motors to change speed.
But it may even change speed without a prelaunch program to do so.
I think perhaps, the second control channel and the Preprogrammed, methods should be, alternate methods of control.
I also think other restrictions like, no armour ( just like the ECM drone though maybe not ) or no external modules could be used to avoid the construction of Uber drones.
| By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 01:56 pm: Edit |
SIMPLE WAY TO DO THIS.
Pay 1 BVP for drone over cost for highest speed atainable.
Note launch speed (must coorespond to existing drone speeds)
Note impulse of speed change.
At impulse of speed change drone changes to other selected speed (must coorespond to existing drone speeds)
This gives you a drone that lets you do the "Wave" deal while saving power.
For a "Terminal" approach, same as above but the impulse is designated as "ATG" and it changes speed when the ATG kicks in. Only available for a drone already equipt with ATG.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:00 am: Edit |
M.K.:
That'll do it, quite well.
But the ECM drone kind of provides for un-arranged speed changes so I'ld like to see, a second drone control change option, that sends out an order to change speed.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 03:12 am: Edit |
Don't you hate it when the net goes down on you in the middle of hitting the send command and then you add a few lines to what you'ld written.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 03:16 am: Edit |
FD.___.0 SEAHORSE DRONES REVISED
FD.___.01 Premable After the development of the ECM drone, Federation Scientist began to look into ways of building drones that could varry their speed depending on the battle conditions.
Slowing down to deal with asteroid feilds and dustclouds around 100,000 kilometers across or moving slowly to await drones to be launched latter on and then jumping up inspeed to create a drone "Tsunami".
A difficulty presented itself in that the ECM drone used a varriable diametre "throttle" to control fuel flow into the drone mottor.
Whilst the onboard computer could varry the opening when it was about 800 metres from a ship and matching that ship's speed, it became much harder to control the speed of the drone with respect to a distanct un identified set of "stimulii" such that there was no actual speed control.
The Scientist hit upon the idea of a set of standardised fuel flow control diameters that the drone would simply switch to when the speed change was needed.
This idea becomes standardised in the Type VII and VIII drones and exactly the mechanism that allows their speed to be set at the moment of launch.
FD.___.1 Operations
•The seahorse drone will move at one of the settings as controlled by the controlling ship but only at the setting availible to it, they are speeds 8, 12, 20 and 32.
•Reductions in speed in no way affect the Endurance of the drone.
The seahorse drone requires two drone control channels. One to control the drone and the other to regulate it's speed.
•If a Seahorse drone switches to ATG then the seahorse drone must emediately move to highest possible speed accelerating in accord to the accelleration rules.
•Where the drones also have external modules the speed of the drone shall be found with the table FD12.132 as per usual.
• The drone may be launched at any of the above listed speeds ( or the corrisponding speed under FD12.132 ).
FD.___.2 Speed Changes
•Each speed value is it's own level.
•The drone may change speed level at the controlling ship's choosing.
•The drone may not change speed within four impulses of launch.
•The drone may not change speeds within 8 impulses of a previous speed change.
FD.___.3 Advanced technologies
• Type VII and VIII drones already have the "throttle" mechanism and therefore only need to buy the Seahorse guidance computer which receives the signals of the second control channel and orders the throttle to change to a new setting.
•Type X & XI drones always had both the "throttle" and guidance computer built into them and is part of the BPV of buying those drones...all they need is the second drone control channel.
• Octopus drones could use opperate as seahorse drones with just two control channels being used so long as the signal to change speed did not come in the same impulse to fire. If the Octopus Seahorse drone had three control channels controlling it then their would be no such restriction.
• If highly advance second generation forms of MW, Starfish and Swordfish warheads are being used such that the target may be changed mid flights ( or the range at which fire shall begin ) then the second control channel to control these features shall use the octopus restrictions above.
• Type X & XI drones add speed 40 to the list of speed levels availible to the drones.
FD.___.4 Costs
• The Seahorse drones require the drone to have two parts added to the drone. First is the drone throttle which as listed above some drones already have and the second is the seahorse guidance computer which only the most advanced drones have as standard.
• The Seahorse drone became Limited availibility item in Y180.
It become a restricted item, Y195 and became generally availible in Y210.
• The Throttle unit costs 0.5 BPV to install on the drone and the Guidance computer costs 0.5 BPV to install aswell. However as listed some drones alreadyt have these capsitites.
Seahorse drones where notation is needed not a capital "S" after the engine.
FD.___.5 Example
A Klingon D7bk could use two Seahorse drones with a slow speed setting such as speed 12 to have drones "waiting" for the second turn's launches from her B-racks.
When her Type IVF drones get close to the Seahorse IVFS drones then bring seahorse drones to full speed and thus gets two waves of 24/6/32 drones attacking the enemy vessel.
Note that in putting these 4 drones on the board she fulls her 6 drone control slots.
In contrast it would be easier to launch an SP with 6 Type IF drones and a further 2 Type IF-H drones when she gets to R8, at the enemy vessel and also get the same 8 spaces of drones on the board but those drones will be considerably harder to kill with the same 6 drone control channels.
The real advantage of the Seahorse drone is that the drone Tsunami can be acheived at lower levels of weapon status...it is not that much more dangerous than regular drone tactics....mostly because the seahorse drones require that second drone control channel.
| By George M. Ebersole (George) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit |
AGENDA WARNING
I want this system for the current So. SF Bay Area Campaign. 
My only problem is with the proposed ATG variant. I don't see why they immediately have to go to full speed. What's the justification for this?
How about an inactive drone? One that activates like a captor mine; ignites or activates as a ship comes within range?
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 05:26 am: Edit |
Quote:My only problem is with the proposed ATG variant. I don't see why they immediately have to go to full speed. What's the justification for this?
Quote:How about an inactive drone? One that activates like a captor mine; ignites or activates as a ship comes within range?
| By George M. Ebersole (George) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit |
Yeah, but that's part of what ATGs are for. I can create a huge wave now without the Seahorse, though getting the right programming or trajectory takes some doing. I don't see how changing speed affects that.
I did a battle about a month and half ago with a Kzinti CM against a Rom Sparrow. With all my stores spent, ATGs included, I had created a wave that the Rom player could not possibly hope to stop. Solution; he emergency deceled and cloaked. Most of the drones vanished, while the others just kept cruising onward, scanning for targets. The sparrow outguns the CM, so I opted to disengage at that point (I also needed to deny the opponent EPs as part of the victory conditions in the campaign in which that battle took place, otherwise I might've closed, sat on top of him, and pounded him with what I could). I think any other ship would've tried to either phaser through them, or turn off.
Myself, and maybe I have a bias here, I don't see it as being that big of a problem. Also it just seems odd that a seahorse would require two control channels. I think there needs to be some hard reason for this, otherwise it strikes me as over compensation for the non-drone user because of the seahorse's ability.
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit |
ATG is good and does help but it's no supposed to be so good as to be a Super Inteligent weapon.
Playtesting will show the way.
| By George M. Ebersole (George) on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 07:53 pm: Edit |
Ya lost me on the Super Intelligent comparison. Could you elaborate?
| By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 09:53 pm: Edit |
How does the drone know that anything other than say, it's current speed; is the best speed to make the attack run?
It doesn't!
How does the drone know that there are other friendly drone in this section of vacuum that it must time it's attack with?
It doesn't!
How does the drone know if the ship will be in it's correct firing position ( based on the CAPTAINS planned attack run ) when it presents it'self as the the alternate target that impulse to reduce fire at the launch ship?
It doesn't!!!
.
So what will drone designers do when they needed to give the drone a speed that will be the attack speed of the drone when it is switched to ATG?
First they descide what speed is most likely going to hit the target, a target that could have a mid-turn speed change and not be as fast as it was when the ATG locked on.
That most likely speed to hit would be:- FULL SPEED.
Indent They then hard-wire a programme into the drone "make best possible speed when switched to ATG" and then when switched ATG the drone tries to accellerate up to and then stay at; full speed.
Indent Finally they tell the purchasing arm of the Admiralty that that this weapon system jumps up to full speed when switched to ATG.
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