Archive through August 19, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
The "X" Files:
OLD X2 FOLDER:
X2 General Systems:
Archive through August 19, 2003
Not to be a wet blanket, but do we REALLY need uber-marines for X2? I mean, is it necessary? I'd just pop in a couple more BP's if I thought it was an issue. With all the advantages they have already, any X2 ship that allows itself to be overrun by boarding parties deserves to loose.
Mike, go a little further and you'll see the great value of this unit. These units are exelent for more than H&R but are perfect for forming Beach Heads as they can take CPs on the first round and survive. The main dificulty in capturing a ship is getting enough BPs on it in the first rounds to build on. Instead of loosing most or all of your BPs in the first round there will still be some left when you are able to transport the second wave. This will allow boarding actions earlier rether than waiting until the ship is nearly destroyed so enough enemy BPs have been killed.
I figure in the X2 era, capturing will be a more prefered method, if possible, than before.
Remember, this is a new limited numbers unit that I propose, not general marine forces.
Prefered method? Sure, expect to see increased DEFENCES too! This seems like a new variant of the old idea of creating weapons that kill more crew "so they can be captured easier". IIRC things like that are on the list. The auto reject list.
Of course, if you want an edge vs. GW era ships then the ever increasing numbers of marines on ship, over the years (look at X ships), should be adequate.
Anyone that propose the name "Terminators" for these will spend time in the 'booth!!!
This really comes down to a normal Commando Team that can absorb an extra Casualty Point. Not so out there. It doesn't get an extra Offencive Potential. I figure anyone with a phaser is as offencive as can be. It gains bonus's on the H&R tables because they have more staying power due to the defencive bonus. A favorable shift of one is a good advantage but not unbeatable at all. Odds on these tables are hardly favorable to begin with.
Regarding Capturing: In the X2 Era capturing ships is more a prefered method as opposed to during war time where distruction is perfectly acceptable. Sure, capturing is always a good result to an engagement but some times there is not that option. In X2 there is a different evironment namely a peaceful one. Also it is an era of evolving technologies and a total quadrant wide state of economic flux. From preserving lives to gaining information about technologies and other practical social political and economic information, capturing gains in preference level. Game wise it's all the same but a real world situation would be facing this.
We've been facing this recently in the RW. An increase in our offencive potental of our Marines and other forces through technological advances is saving lives on both sides. Even the warrior races are facing the need to preserve lives.
BPs that count as two casualties seems a quite the stretch.
I think it is quite safe to say that the shipboard anti-intruder defenses increase right along with any armor or weapons used by bording parties.
Again, could we leave at least a few things alone and not try and come up with ideas to improve EVERYTHING?
Also Loren I think your logic is flawed in the capturing is better than destroying. If a ship is destroyed, nobody knows what really happend except for the winning side. If a ship is captured, it will more than likely be seen by enemy agents and then you have a huge forign relations uproar. Therefore, in wartime, capturing a ship is fine, as everyone is already fighting-mad at each other, but during peacetime, better a ship be destroyed than fall into enemy hands.
See Hunt for Red October as an example.
Uh, ya see "Hunt for Red October" as an example of my point. They captured that ship and kept it secret. I don't understand where your comming from on that. (Read the book twice and saw the movie too many times.)
There are more cases than Empires vs. Empire. There is the increased matter of privateers, small patrols, pirates and commerce shipping. Countless reasons that capturing a ship swiftly is the optimal choice (other than in pure combat). Also, capturing one of the many rogue colonies is a mission here. Or securing a contested claim.
You can only increase automatic anti-intrusion so much on a ship before you endanger your own crew. Example: It wont do to have phasers mounted on cameras in the halls of your ship and expect your crew to function; beit Klingon, Romulan, Kzinti or Pirate. The Feds are out of the question for that sort of security. The only real way is to have personel manage the security. A specialty Team would present an above average force that most ships wouldn't face regularly. In the past no ships internal security was improved to combat the Commando Team (which does better than a standard BP)since Y1, a more advanced Commando Team would do better. By your logic, CFant, ships should have improved their security to match the Commando threat and put normal BPs at a disadvantagous shift. But this didn't happen. There is little room for change in the Marine arena. This fits a small gap and is presented in an advanced era. I think it can work and add a new dynamic to the game. Could be fun.
Just to note, as always, I'm only supporting my own proposal. I'm open to this not working but as long as I can argue for it...I will. 
Anyway, of course there is always those situations were the ship should be destroyed. Sometimes AFTER it's been captured. Remember though, I'm not addressing Capturing vs. Destroying for all of History, only for the X2 era and the motivation for creating such a unit (besides advancement of technology making it possible).
Back to it: Forign Relations: Some ships might be captured, scutinized, and returned "...with our sincere regret for this misunderstanding."
Finally, add "Point duty while a Prime Team resues a VIP" to the list of possible missions in my previous post.
Loren,
The Russians were more than happy to have the Red October killed. They did NOT want it in enemy hands. Had the Russians found out about the captured ship, there would have been a major incident, therefore it does not support your idea.
Marines have surely improved from the Early Years to the Middle Years to the General War to the era of Advanced Technology. Boarding Parties improve, ship defenses improve, that simple. There is no gap. Besides, if a improved combat BP was going to be invented, it would have been invented during the General War, not during peace-time.
I disagree. I'm talking commandoes here. A limited elite group.
Is there a rule that if a GW era ship transports a BP on a EY ship they have an advantage? X1 BPs gain a shift on GW? I don't recall that they do. X2 BPs wont eitheunless you buy a new type.
And this isn't real peace time either. Its realative peace where the Commando roll is brought more to the forefront. IMHO.
Not everything needs changing but Marines and Ground forces haven't changed at all in...forever. X2 is the perfect oppertunity to add one new dynamic to the fray. This is not a big change but has, IMO, some fun tactical implications.
But it does not make any sense. A commando team is indeed an elite group.
But the evolution of warfare shows that if a new tactic or technology is developed for offense, then an equal and opposite tactic or technology is also developed.
But, we will just disagree on this, as with many of your X2 ideas.
Quote:Not to be a wet blanket, but do we REALLY need uber-marines for X2? I mean, is it necessary? I'd just pop in a couple more BP's if I thought it was an issue. With all the advantages they have already, any X2 ship that allows itself to be overrun by boarding parties deserves to loose.
Not really.
Your Fed XCA buys 10 more BPs ( her limit ) and my C7 and D7bk both buy 10 more BPs ( total 20 extra ).
The XCA not only has a far fewer transporters but also is limited to the number of defensive BPs it may purchase thanks to the purchasing limit.
Quote:The Russians were more than happy to have the Red October killed. They did NOT want it in enemy hands. Had the Russians found out about the captured ship, there would have been a major incident, therefore it does not support your idea.
Yes, a major incident.
The would have had to swap, money or caputure secret agents or somesuch to get their ship back, untampered with.
Now why does the term TRADE WARS spring to mind!?!
I had written POWERED ARMOUR RULES but they went the way of the DODO when the computer programmes got messed around low these many months.
If SPP had printed off a copy ( he actually liked the idea ) then the he might be able to post what they said.
Quote:Your Fed XCA buys 10 more BPs ( her limit ) and my C7 and D7bk both buy 10 more BPs ( total 20 extra ).
The XCA not only has a far fewer transporters but also is limited to the number of defensive BPs it may purchase thanks to the purchasing limit.
And the point of this is? Do you really beleive a single CA, no matter what generation, should be able to hold off borders from two such ships? The C7 and D7 both have very high numbers of transporters for their size; they are SUPPOSED to be good at capturing other ships. Creating super troopers for X2 to give them yet another edge seems over the top. It's not a badly thought out concept, it's just too much when added to everything else.
On the subject of XBPs, Module X1 said that X-ship BPs were exactly the same as other ships' BPs, stating something like "Ten thousand hand phasers cost less than one frigate."
Agree Martin. If boarding parties are improved in Y205, they won't be limited to the X2 ships. All boarding parties in the time period will get the improved weapons/training/gizmos/whatever that make a better boarding party. So it's a wash. Keep the same number of BPs on each side, and it doesn't really matter if they're X2 improved or not.
There's only two cases where any X2-boarding party improvements might show up:
•Race-specific improvements.
•A Y205 ship caught in a time warp back to Y175.
In both cases, this can be simulated with "more" instead of "better".
For race-specific, look at the pre-GW ships. Klingons and Gorns have more BPs. This trend can continue in Y205.
For the time warp, how about this rule:
"When an X2 ship is caught in a time warp back at least 40 years, each boarding party uses only 1/4 of a crew unit, instead of the standard 1/2. This will double the number of BPs on the ship. When the ship returns to it's natural time, re-convert the surviving BPs back to 1/2 Crew per BP (round down)."
Agree Martin. If boarding parties are improved in Y205, they won't be limited to the X2 ships. All boarding parties in the time period will get the improved weapons/training/gizmos/whatever that make a better boarding party. So it's a wash. Keep the same number of BPs on each side, and it doesn't really matter if they're X2 improved or not.
I agree here. But my proposal is NOT an upgrade of all BPs. It is a new type of Commando unit under the same basic restrictions as commandoes and replaces them. (i.e. you can't have two of each, you can have one or two of either). Ships are not automatically assigned SAC Teams. They must be bought as Comm. Ops. and cost 3 times as much as a BP. I'm proposing NO improvement to regular BPs.
And yes, it is a unit available to all ships after Y205 or some time around that. It is NOT an X2 unit but a unit introduced first on X2 ships, then others as needed.
Cfant: It's cool to disagree and what I like about you is that you don't just dismiss an idea because it's not yours and you give reasons why and are generally open to changing your mind (or so I gather. )
I do want to ask this though, are you clear that I'm proposing a new limited unit and not a general upgrade to BPs? I though it was clear in my proposal.
Loren,
I'm not trying to be disagreeable. But IMO we dont need yet Another specialty BP.
We already have Outstandong Crews Commandoes Heavy weapons etc etc.
As to the tech edge. A Bow and arrow will kill you as dead as a machine gun if it hit's. resulting in 1 dead target.
A 2X handphaser probably is lighter and holds a larger charge but other than that I don't think it makes much diff in the end how it stuns/kills.
Loren, yeah, I do see that you are oonly proposing a new type of limited Commando.
I just think that we really don't need it. I agree with Kenneth, we have too many types of specialty units already. I'd like to see X2 get back to the "meat and potatoes".
I am open to anything, I just have seen so much in the X2 topic that I dislikem, and so much X2 stuff in general that I am starting to get sick of all the proposals and I am keeping myself away from it as much as possible.
OK, indeed there may not be a need. I can see that. I'm proposing the idea for a possible need as I do with most ideas. If you were to take all my ideas and put them together you would not get an accurate view of what I want to see. This is a forum for hashing out ideas.
Even if all these ideas in the X-Files were really great they couldn't possibly all go into the same product. But it is better to present every idea least miss out on one that really works good.
Not everything needs to be changed. I'm stead fast with that. But every thing should be addressed so that it can be accepted or dismissed.
One thing I do want for X2 is a new feel. You should have to play a X2 ship differently than a GW or X1 or else you get a "Rose by another name." A 1-ComPot/2-CasPoint Commando opens new tactics for H&R, boarding actions and ground ops that take planning to implement well least you throw away good BPV for nothing. Thats just the sort of tactical depth I'm looking for in X2.
I'll be quite sickened if X2 is just a bunch of tactically shallow new ship designs.
Loren, this unit of yours would make H&Rs the rule rather than the exception, and they would be successful a great deal of the time.
It would be unbalancing, therefore it should be avoided.
Cfant: Well, the odds do improve but H&R odds are poor to begin with and most ships only get two of these. If they hit a system that is guarded their odds is also poor but not quite as.
Yes, as with buying commandoes now, you would be wasting BPV if you did not make any H&R as Commandoes (and my unit) aren't any better at guarding than standard BPs.
There is still a good chance that the SAC will out right die trying an H&R. I don't change any of the results just give a favorable shift of one. Their 2 Casualty Points have nothing to do with H&R, only in regular combat.
All in all, they are better used for regular combat than for H&R as they are expensive units at 3 x BP cost. In straight up combat with 3 BP's vs. 1 SAC Team the BP's would more often than not win. The SAC having other capabilities that must be exploited to show their full value.
As a rule, to win you must use every single weapon you have. Almost every game I play has at least a couple H&R raids. There is no exception. You must use every thing at your disposal so I never saw H&R as an exception.
In a game against me you will see me use, in addition to traditional weapons: Tractors, transporters, T-Bombs, H&R, Guards, CDR, EDR, Shield Repair, SS, WW, SP, shuttle tricks (like manned shuttles moving like seeking weapons)or shuttles as Ph-3 platforms, drone or plasma tricks, EM, Side Slips, HET and self destruction (if need be) to win or lose less (VP). Not one of these is an exception and all of them are perfectly legitimate tactics that are as important and phasers and torpedoes.
Unbalancing: I disagree. You spend 1.5 BPV on a unit that has (I check my figures later) a 50% chance of taking out one system and has a bigger chance of being destroyed. Compare that to any other 1.5 BPV item in SFB as it’s not that extravagant. A 1.5 BPV drone, for instance, can take out 12 systems. Sure, it can be shot down among various defenses but it doesn't expose your ship to shieldless fire like conducting an H&R does.
If the SAC Team were to become more prevalent than 2 on ships, 4 on X2 ships and 6 on Troop Ships (or any ship with barracks) it would become unbalancing but with in these limits I don't think it would unbalance things any more than regular Commandoes did. Of course, playtesting is the real trueth sayer not my own speculation.
Disclaimer: All this from my point of view and humble opinion. I will re-evaluate the odds increase tonight. When I first researched this idea the SAC Team still had good odds of dying in an H&R, especially if it were guarded.
Sorry for the long post. That "Rule rather than the exception" thing got me going. I don't see any lagit tactic as an exception. If its in the rules and the players agree, use it as much as you can to win. As I mentioned before, as with any BP you still have to drop a shield. So if you have an oppertunity to do that without get slapped with free internals then you had better be using your transporters or you are not playing full out and so SAC Teams pose no increase in oppertunity to conduct H&R. They do increase the oppertunity for success. They do offer a stronger way to form a beach head in normal combat. But then, that's the idea.
As I said, I agree to disagree with your suggestion.
5 beings with phaser-rifles and grenades et al. You can improve the armor, improve the personal shields, train them to the best of their ability to learn.
Phasers will improve and still be able to cut them down. Shipboard anti-intruder abilities will improve and assist to block the boarding just as it always has. I just don't see a single 5 being group counting as 10 men.
I am all for having extra BPs on an X2 vessel and perhaps even ok with a higher allotment of Commandos and HW Squads. But I cannot see your idea as being reasonable in any sense.
Okeedoky. Aren't you a fellow Californian? Maybe some day we can try to convince each other over Pie and Coffie sometime. Among other conversation. 
Me? While it would be much fun to break bread, no. I am a Texan, from Big D. Just used to fly into LA for work a great deal.
Oh, ya. You've mentioned that before.
My Grandparents live in Dallas. It's been a long time since I've been there. Is a Jazz bar called Strictly Taboo still there?
Hmm, I think so. I prefer the Sambuca and a place in Deep Elem called The Bone for the jazz and blues though.