I posted several reasons before. There is an assuption involved in my reasoning.

First, I don't believe that trans 32 for ships will fly and as such speed 40-48 drones as a regular thing is too much. They have too much endurance and don't reduce their warhead with range. Also, the x-drones can take quite a bit of damage to kill. IF ships do go trans-32 then drones will have to AT LEAST go as fast. At this point the drone booster wouldn't be enough.

However, if ships max out at 32 or 31 then trans-32 drones will be too much as I stated above. But leaving then as-is is not enough. I felt that the drone booster was just enough while being interesting tactically and felt the back story given fit with established history. (Utilizing old stores of otherwise useless fighter WBP to develope and prove the system in a Federation/Kzinti colaberation.)

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

It gives drones some ability to move faster than 32 without making it an all-the-time thing and it counterbalances the increased range should would have to shooting the drones down with the 2x damage taken.

While I'm neutral towards the idea--it doesn't really grab or repel me--it seems reasonably balanced to me.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:21 am: Edit

I think that's basically the size of it.

You don't need the boosted drones from a mechanical point of veiw if ships stay at 32.
Once ships start going over 32 then you not only need something faster then 32 for the drone but something tougher than boosted drones.


I don't really mind which way it goes...particularly if we have 3Ph-3 shots with X2 rapid pulsing boosted drones, because it'll draw out the phaser fire...should I spend a whole Ph-5 shot to kill that R3 boosted type VIII drone or wait `til it drops to speed 32 and creeps in on me and defend more cheaply with Ph-3 shots....although potentially I may need to fire 3Ph-3s at R1 to kill it making it consume a whole Ph-5.

But I like the Type X anbd XI drone partly because the Type XI gives us a true 2 space drone and partly because I think the drones of X2 will match the Plasma of X2.
That is you'll have mongrel of a time trying to out run Sabotted speed 48 plasma with 5 extra hexes of glory zone and you'll have a mongrel of time trying to out run the three warhead space 8 points per half space of explove module, ten points to kill, speed 40 endurance 5 turns type XI drone.
I kinda think the parrallel works.
There's a higher threshhold at which point you choose to run and thus you must shoot your way through the X2 Plasma and so to their is a higher threshhold for runing ( and laying a T-bomb ) with the X2 drones and thus you must also fight your way through.

But with the existance of the Type X & XI then the boosted drones have no place...unless you can boost Type X and XI drones for even higher speed.


What about this...
Y205 Type VII was the standard drone and all ships come with their drone racks filled with Type VII drones.

By Y210 the speeds of the ships were proving to be too much for the drone to "claw down the range" and thus a divce to move the drones into range was developed, specifically a booster for the drones which utilised old fighter WBPs.
The could be mount of drones with F motor to grant a speed of 40 and after some tinkering in Y211 were able to mounted on type VII and VIII drones and on those drone could in fact travel at speed 40.

In Y217 the first Type X, XI & XII drones came into production and were naturally capably of speed 48.

In Y220 Booster Packs were developed for Type X & XI drones that allowed them to travel at speed 64!


Now that would give us the ability to claw down the range but also have a fairly tough drone running faster than the target vessel heading towards the target vessel.


I wonder how the anchor works in X2
I mean it fewer Phasers ( but better ) for basically X1 damages and after the refit more BTTY power and speed 32 base drones and better defenses ( such as A.S.I.F. and Caps-to-SSReo ) you might actually beable to slap a tractor on an enemy vessel without being murderalized in the process.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Loren,

Had a thought.

I keep thinking of a drone booster as something you attach to a drone. Something extra.

Suppose it's a *bus* upgrade?

I figure we could either implement a endurance loss from the non-efficient use of fuel (not enough of a price to pay for the advantage, IMHO)or require the booster take up internal space in order to fit in the standardized drone-handling equipment.

We could have 1-space drone lose that extra 1/2 space and a 2-space drone losing a whole space. You can have a boosted drone at the price of a smaller warhead.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Actually, since the type-VIII is a 2 payload space, 1.5 rack space drone since the X2 update, both drone frames should just lose 1/2 payload spaces

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 06:55 pm: Edit

I had aways intended it (DBP) to be a bus upgrade that took no extra space. (Hold out your arm to the side. Place your other hand cross ways on your arm just above the elbow. You arm is the drone bus and your hand is the DBP. A second hand underneth would be the second DBP). One DBP (.5 BPV) gets you 4 impulses of speed 64. Two gets you 8 impulses.

Type VII can have two DBP.
Type VIII can have three (needs two for 4 impulses the third get you 8 impulses).
Type IX can only have 1 but lasts the full 8 impulses.

The DBP is designed to make up for lost efficiency due to faster moving ships so it's cost should be enough. Even though, there were some limitations I felt were natural. Like fighters while boosted it takes double damage. And due to the great speed it has a small chance of missing if it strikes while boosted.

The booster packs add energy to the bus so I don't see it shortening the endurence but that could be a "tone it down" option if needed.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 07:08 pm: Edit

To review, the To-Hit chart for a drone while boosted was:

Die Roll	Result
1-2	Full Damage
3-4	Half Damage
5-6	Miss No Damage

Not affected by EW for this table but if the target is EMing, apply the appropriate chart after finding the result on this table.

Note: Before I had said that if there was a "Miss" result the drone could HET and make a second run. That was a dumb idea. The drone explodes when it reaches the target hex. Due to the speed there may be a undesired result.

This is ONLY in regards to a drone striking its target WHILE in Boosted mode. I think it is important to have this because I don't want drones to just become demi-DF weapons.

The whole purpose of the DBP is to close the range on a target faster. To give the enemy less time to react and prepare. And in some cases not allow him to out run the drone.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

In other words, natural ECM sources still apply.

Those things would splat like insects on a windshield in an asteroid field.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Yes, the only have value in a limited form. Open space is the best place for them. Basically EW applies the same as it does against normal drones. Just not on the Speed Hit/Miss chart above.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:51 pm: Edit

I'ld rather just apply a flat ECM bonus to the to hit like as already exists for defenders who are generating ECM.


Say in boosted mode the drone is travelling faster than the internal computers can deal with the data being forced into it and so the drone suffers say +6 ECM or +10...I'm not sure which will playtest right although the drone is supoposed to drop the booster and go to normal combat speeds before impact so the higher the better.


Personally I think the Type III-XX has a lot to show the Boosted drone.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 12:22 am: Edit

Hmmm, me thinks I will re-review the drone rules and consider these options.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 03:23 am: Edit

D6.36 and FD2.222 respectively.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:06 pm: Edit

It'd be a hefty amount of ECM to have a similar effect. something like -20 natural ECM (-4 net shift) while under boost.

That should give a chart like

1-2: Full
3-4: 1/2
5-6: 1/4

Given the nature of EW shifts you could give the drone as little a -16 ECM itself or as much as -24 and have the same result at EW parity. The more, the better for the defender, the less the better for the attacker. At 20, the EW balance can shift by 4 points either way without affecting the drone.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 09:07 pm: Edit

I think 10 ECM is heafty enough...that way you get 10+6 of a GW ship and +4 shift...the drones could buy ATG and get -3 and that'll change the shift.
It should only be a strong enough shift to make players want to pay for their approach period.

By Flat ECM I meant when traveling at a flat speed...I'ld like to see some kind of multiple impulse period of slowing down like ED.

Say announce.
Next impulse keep same speed but have a +5 ECM mod.
Net impulse reach "dropped to" speed and have zero ECM to the enemy.

Maybe something over 4 impulses 10-6, 6-3, 3-1 & 1-0 runnoing the first two impulses at the boosted speed and the seconf two impul;ses at the non boosted speed pedending on what we think is fair and fun to play.

I'ld like to not see the drones get down to R1 and then drop their packs and come after the ship with out still incurring at least some of the ECM penalty.
So any way we can wangle that would be a good thing.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

I don't think they drop their packs on demand so much as, like the space shuttle, discard when empty.

Loren?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 02:25 pm: Edit

John T. : Correct.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Having Type VII and VIII drones flying in on ships at speed 32 with the packs mounted and therefore taking double damage will make them a paffetic 3 and 4 points to destroy.

WHO needs the Ph-6s when a Ph-3 rapid pulse will either destroy one boosted drone at R1 ( except the Type VIII which will survive 1/3 of the attacks...good thing we have Aegis ) or deal with Type VII and VIII regular drones as a pair of R1 Ph-3 shots killing all the type VIIs and 4/9 of the Type VIIIs and thanks to Aegis you can kick in another Ph-3 shot to finish those off!?!

If Boosted drones can't drop the packs then they won't get played.
People would rather use their 5 Endurance ( particularly if booster drones have reduced Endurance ) and have their drones crawl over to the target than send out drones that can't hit straight when boosted and can't survive when not!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit

My proposed DBP drops off when it burns out (i.e. after either 4 or 8 impulses). After that the drone no longer takes double damage. Only while the booster packs are on the drone AND opperating.

You could choose not to ignite the booster packs on launch (or remove them from a drone after taking that drone out of service and save them for later. Something probably only useful in a campain.). After launch they cannot be ignited. It takes a special mechanism in the rack to do that. There is not enough room to mount all the Booster Pack equipement. So it is ignited at launch or not.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 03:58 am: Edit

I don't think a ridgid burn value is going to work all that well...it takes cetain combat factors out.

1) If I do burn...which can only be to claw down the range because we've set a system where jumping past the defenses whilst boosted is a waste of effort:-...+10 ECM to target...Double damage.
Then you will be at a long enough range that a turn or probably a few sideslips will save you from having to deal with the boosted drones.

2) If I'm firing Proxies with my Feds at a base then my drones need to have a longer boost period than 4 impulses.

3) If I'm attacking a fleeing opponent with the boost drones then 4 impulses of boost will not let me reach it markedly more easy than regular drones.

4) I have to know how I will employ my boosted drones during ship's set-up not at the time of launch...that's a fairly restrictive thing...maybe too restrictive...UI mean it's not like I can change my mind during EA like I can with other systems like Proxi' Photons.


Personnally I'ld have a burn period based on from launch to when the controlling ships orders it to drop the packs ( ATG dropping packs when switched to that ) but have a set of restrictions on the drone:-
•Reduced Endurance.
•Double damage when packs are in place.
•+10 ECM to target during boosted movement.
•No extended range options ( it burns the fuel to hot to avoid the tanks exploding ).
•No external modules (they get in the way of the booster...or does the booster get in the way of the external modules!?!)
• Restricted numbers.
• A BPV price tag.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

You did remind me that I had given a boosted drone the bennifits/restrictions of EM while boosted. +10 ECM is too much, IMO. +4 that is what happens with EM is easy to counter but its the first time you have to counter ECM with drones. Thats a big change.

I'm not sure if the numbers would have to be restricted but perhaps considered limited. OTOH the BPV cost may be enough. If they pay all that dough then they will be facing more BPV. 1/2 BPV per pack (1x .5 for 4 impulses and 2x .5 for 8 impulses boost.)should be enough.

I think the double damage thing is for sure but the EM affects would be for balancing if it needs it. It might not.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 10:43 pm: Edit

The trouble with a low shift is two fold.

• ATG will already give you 3 ECM so you don't wan't to have ATG making the drones hit like regular...the Type VII & VIII already have ATG.

• Your aim should be to cause players to drop the pack so that ADDs and phaser will get a pretty good go.
Otherwise why not just have faster drones!?!
You could invent a half spaced Type XIII drone that isn't a dogfight drone that takes say 4 points of damage to destroy and carries a 1/2 space of warhead of advanced explosive module.
8/4/40
Launch it from any rack ( because it's not a dogfight drone ) but launch it at dogfight rates if launched from an X2G-rack ( every 6 impulses ) or an X2E-rack ( every three impulses ) and you'll get a drone that's EASY to kill but moves fast.
Making it easy to slam bossted drones into the hulls of enemy ships but easy to kill is just not equiped with the kinds of tactical restriction that a drone module should have...it'ld be so free that the drone might aswell be a new drone.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:13 am: Edit

From the X2 changes thread the idea came up of using an X2 E-rack (launches VI/IX drone every 8 impulses).

The E-rack never gained much popularity during the GW. Rather then creating a little used rack lets add the capabilities of the E-rack (and C-rack?) to the GX2 rack. Upon the first firing of the turn the player selects one firing mode for the entire turn (technically this will be noted simply by recording the type of drone launched).

A: I, II, III, IV, V, VII, VIII can be launched once/turn in the manner of an A-rack
C: I, II, III, IV, V, VII, VIII can be launched twice/turn in the manner of a C-rack
E: VI, IX launched once/8 impulses
G: ADD fired every impulse

Obviously there would be no reason to select mode A if mode C is available. We should decide through playtesting which mode (A|C) is more balanced.

The various modes would be independent of magazine storage so those suggestions can be discussed separately.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:37 pm: Edit

I had an idea once of a rack who's launching limit was in spaces not numbers. Say a total of two spaces. So you could launch:

1 x Type IV
2 x Type I
4 x Type VI or ADD
1 x Type I plus 2 x Type VI or ADD.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I don't particularly like the spaces limit.


Going to a higher RoF for the G-rack just to make it work defensively at longer ranges is okay by me, but I'ld rather it didn't get a C-rack capacist, unless that was the only change that any drone using race ever aquired in the Jump from X1 to X2, or otherwise the Kzinti will be running arounbd with 6X2G-racks launching 12 Type VIII drone per turn and switiching to type XI would just be a killer.


I'ld like to see the X1E-rack gain a slight increase in RoF and the X1G-rack gain the ability to fire at an MY E-rack Rof, as some of the rules under X1R.

And then just grant the X2E-rack the ability to launch Type VII (& X) drones and a higher RoF and the X2G-rack a slight increase in type IX RoF aswell.


I'ld also like to see in the X1R period a drop of the Rof of X1C-racks to 8 impulses between shots ( so they are firing as quickly across the turn break as A-racks did ) and then a drop in the X2 period to 6 impulses so that it actually becomes a fast firing weapon compaired to the X2G-racks and X2A-racks and X2B-racks, as the C rack should be.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Just to note that using "spaces" rate of fire actually limits the ADD capability of the G-Rack to four ADDs. It's a trade off. In fact, most would then choose to load up with Type XI drones instead of ADD as those are a sure kill.

Maybe ADDs could count as 1/4 space for firing rate.