The one problem is that it assumes that the Klingon is going to get 2 shots on same Fed shield.

In a less-optimal situation, the Fed has put light damage on the Klingon, will again in 2 turns and got away with 2 dinged shields and no internals.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit

If we eliminate the fast-turn overloads, that would give us a lot more flexibility in making new and different disruptor designs. It would also make the Feds more Fed-like again.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 07:44 am: Edit

---

Quote:

The one problem is that it assumes that the Klingon is going to get 2 shots on same Fed shield.

---

---

Quote:

If we eliminate the fast-turn overloads, that would give us a lot more flexibility in making new and different disruptor designs. It would also make the Feds more Fed-like again.

---

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 07:49 am: Edit

Maybe not...


Maybe the NEED that exists for the Fed to get out of range quickly ( because of the recycle limit ) forces the player to arm lightly and move fast...away from the Klingon.

And that in it'self is what causes the Federation vessel to revert back to being a two turn arming vessel.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:03 pm: Edit

MJC, you've given a lot of thought to this. For now I'm sticking with the X-Fix rule's 12-point Fast-OL and above X2 modifications. Now, a few questions:

What if XAWRs generate 2 points? What if XBTTYs hold 4 points? What if the High Energy Burst (HEB) is an option? What if some drones move Spd48-64? How does proposed X2-EW play into this?

I like the idea that a skipper has a choice of either 2x12pt-OL or 1x24pt-OL over two turns. The interesting thing is 2x12 gives you 2 rolls to hit (risking 12pts) whereas 1x24 gives you 1 roll (risking all 24pts). X2-EW could provide a nice edge either way. Also with the 32-impulse "cool down" after H-OL, by the time the Fed is ready to shoot again he's probably in a good fast-prox range.

I used to be in the Photons MUST rule camp. Nowadays I believe in parity for gaming purposes so I don't want to see the classic counter-heavy (Disruptor) get left behind. It looks to me like MJC's scenario indicates parity.

Mike Raper, how is this gaming out for you? Who else is playtesting this?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:22 pm: Edit

"Maybes" doesn't cut it. A lot of this takes into account that players might not play to the best of their abilities.

The Klingon will have to strike two shields to the Feds one if the Fed has any experience at all. This also assumes that the Klingon would get SIX Heavy Disruptors instead of four. (which may be: see below)

With the X1 photon and 24 Pt. OL the Fed has the choice of dancing (with 12 point fast-OLs) or going for the one punch knockout. The Klingon hasn't this choice. Against that Fed he must dance and it will be against a Fed that has learned the Two Step.

With 24 Point Photons the Fed tactic can easilly be close, anchor, and hose (the old Supp.2 tactic that blew). Remember, to do this the Fed only has to be in close range for impulse #1 of any turn. This is not to difficult and downright easy on a closed map. The To-Hit factors of the Photon are very good at close range. So is the Disruptors but the disruptor doesn't even come close to the photon if it is destroyed before it can fire the second time. The Extra 16 inernals from 24 point photons over 20 point will likely do that (or finnish out the power required to arm them).

A R1 OL Fed Alpha will do about 48 from phaser-5's and 96 from Photons for 144.

With 20 Point photons it's 128.

To be fair let subtract 45 shield and 20 battery for 79/63.

Take all hull+Cargo (assume 20) 59/43.
Take out a few other types of internals assume 12. This leaves 47/31.
I'll give an ASIS 12 for this one volley. 35/19.

Results may vary some but that leaves 35/19 weapon and power hits.

The Klingon can generate (with six heavy disruptors) 72+ 48 (8*Ph5 or equivelent)= 120 less the same numbers(109) = 11 weapons and power.

The Klingon is going to lose 95% of the time and having a difference in BPV enough to bring in another ship wont fix it. The Next turn the Fed will be able to match the Klingon weapon for weapon except it will have more, even with only 20 point OLs on the first turn because on the second turn he can fast load. )This is an X1 trait and really need to continue into X2 (albeit unchanged).)

This is all to illustrate how much of a difference the extra four points per photon makes. In the exchange the Klingon ends up with 16 less WEAPONS and POWER than the Fed. Game over. 24 point OL's are past the breaking point IMO. They don't balance well with X2 and will totally out pace any previous generation. 24 point OLs lend to just increasing the damage out put of ships and narrows the tactical play book.

20 point Critical OLs could be made to work. (Critical= 17 to 20 points cannot be held and energy for critical must be applied on the second turn of arming. Fast-loads cannot be made critical on the first turn but can be held then Critical OL energy applied. Fast-Proxies cannot be converted. Arming must start over.)

One way I made it work was to indeed give the K-XCC six heavy Disruptors (4 x FA-L/R + 2 x RA (or something close to that.)) What this does is that it allows the Klingon to really dance around the Fed and wear him down to even up an Alpha Exchange. He will pressure the Fed to use up his reserve and scrape at his shields. In the mean time the Fed can attempt to do the same by Fast Proxing him. If an Alpha Occures the Klingon does it on the Oblique.

The result is that the Close and Hose is eliminated as a good tactic.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Although I like the 6xHD for Kinks I don't agree with all the math, but I can't prove it (sucks to be me). Do their drones really cancel each other out? Are you taking into consideration the Fed MUST pay Warp Power for photons which reduces his manueverability? In these examples, what's the BTTY size? What EW rules are being used? Are we assuming all-X2 battle groups or mixed?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

I think we're assuming an XCA-duel situation here. Minimum of 3-point batteries.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Well, aside from a scatter pack the Klingons drones would be canceled out by the Feds basic defences.

I am making a XCC vs. XCC compairason. The matter is only compaunded when compairing previous generations. You need to balance duels before fleets.

Maneuverability is a factor in the prefered result but is not a major factor in the main point though it is addressed. Quote:"Remember, to do this the Fed only has to be in close range for impulse #1 of any turn. This is not to difficult and downright easy on a closed map."

Warp for power is also addressed there.

EW cancels out with either equal ability or non-use of the rule (a lagitamate consideration. Balance must consider non-EW use).

Number may vary, as I pointed out, with different designs and tactics and condidtions. The point is that the extra 16 hit in the alpha go directly to weapons and power when the damage numbers are already high. If, after one alpha exchange you end up with 10 less power and six less weapons you will be facing the beginning of the end. You can't repair that quickly and the next turn the discrepancy is worse.

It all has to balance on Open and Closed maps between X2 vs. X2 and X2 vs. >X2.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Brodie,

Well, here's the problem I have with 24 pointers. In X1, or even GW, a full strike of overloaded photons in a CA vs. CA duel would expect to expend half it's damage against the opponenets shield in the opening stages of the battle. In these X2 ships, 24 points is doubling the output of the photon, but the shield protection itself and the internal size of the ship are not doubled. So, given a Klingon X-D7 with a 45 point forward shield, a hit with all four photons will tear that shield down and do a possible 51 more points of damage. That doesn't count phasers, drones or other weapons the Fed may have. 51 internals is a near crippling blow to any cruiser, no matter how advanced. On the following turn, assuming no delay is required for using such large torpedoes, the Fed can unleash an additional 48 points of photon damage.

While it's true this may not happen all the time and might not be against the same shield, it's still an absolutely huge amount of damage for one ship to dish out in that amount of time. No, it won't happen all the time. But when it does, the game is over for the ship that took those hits. No ship in the game has that kind of direct fire power. Even the B10, with its eight disruptors, can equal that damage potential. IMHO, no cruiser, even an X2 one, should be able to generate battleship-like damage.

It has been brought up that over two turns, the Klingon XD7 will have two shots with its disruptors, and a chance to equal the damage from four 24 point photons. The problem is that it DOES take two turns, and in that turn, the opposing player can do a host of things to avoid taking full damage from the second strike. He can turn, reinforce shields, repair systems, run away...all those things people in those situations do. With the Fed, though, you're getting it all at once. There is no way to duck or dodge it if he hits you, and no turn of rest with fastloads part of the game. It's this reason I don't like 24 point photons. The only reasonable way to do it, IMO, is to require the one turn cool down for any torpedo fired with a warhead of over 16 points. That MAKES the player use it as a two turn crunch weapon, and returns the "gamble" feel to it, since you can't just fire up fast loads the turn after to make up for the misses.

Anyway, that's what I think and what I learned in the playtests I did. Not all agree, and this has been argued over a million times. More testing is needed, but I feel pretty sure that what I've said will be born out over time; that 24 points is too much, especially if fastloads are allowed.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Some points: the 24pt requires two turns, your crippling Alpha requires all 4 photons to hit (what's the probability?), and I emphatically agree that there should be a delay (e.g. 32 impulses) after any H-OL (16>=24pts) shot.

A question on balace: what should an X2-CC equal in duel? BCH or DN? As I recall the current consensus is BCH. What was the X1-CC supposed to balance to? CB or BCH? If BCH then isn't an X2-CC nothing more than a glorified X1-CC (not saying it is, just raising the point)? Also I'm trying to recall what the X2-CC is supposed to BPV. 250? 300? 350?

Sorry to be slow in picking up on these things but I'm still playing catch-up here.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:56 pm: Edit

I think the balance for an X2 ship should be a 2-on-1 vs. the same size GW ship.

1 XCA vs. 2 D7s

1 crippled XCA, 1 dead D7, 1 D7 with only shield damage = draw.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Jeff, that's a pretty good comparison. But I would suggest the XCA = 2 x D7W. That would put it in the range we've discussed or ~300 BPV.

RBN: Part of the point is that the Disruptor won’t get its second shot if it is destroyed on the first turn’s crunch.

Achieving R1 with a XCC won't be very difficult unless the opponent is running. That's the beauty of the RA Disruptors. It discourages pursuit or at least requires a cost while the Klingon saber dances.

NOTE: The RA Disruptors are NOT for runnng away. They are for constant pounding on non-facing turns and over runs. If the opponant has a down shield but has turned it away from you it is only a matter of making the correct turn (or no turn) after a over run to strike the down shield. In the Klink vs. Fed duel (of my designs) the Klink must work to strike and the Fed must work to not get struck.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 05:09 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Some points: the 24pt requires two turns, your crippling Alpha requires all 4 photons to hit (what's the probability?), and I emphatically agree that there should be a delay (e.g. 32 impulses) after any H-OL (16>=24pts) shot.

---

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 05:48 pm: Edit

I'm not following you, Loren. How can a disruptor be destroyed in one turn by a two-turn photon?

Also, what if the two extra HDs were mounted underneath the Klink's bulb? They'd have the potential for 360^o coverage. Or one could be LH and the other RH. Then again if they're going LH/RH then they could be mounted on the nacelles.

Mike, excellent point on the WS-III thing. I hadn't thought of that. Okay, add a rule that states WS-III allows Standard-OL only, it would take a full turn to arm up a Heavy-OL. How's that? It reduces simplicity but brings balance. Also, should this rule apply to other races or only X2-Photon users?

Also another point: are the two primary DF heavies the Photon and Disruptor? These are the two that we need to balance against each other? After that everything pretty much falls into a "proportional" formula for race flavor (I'm not even thinking about Drones/Plasma right now).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Pretty much. My original thought was that if we could balance the Fed and the Klingon as "core races", it would be much, much easier to get the rest.

I think what Loren is referring to is this. Turn one, my 4 24-point photons hit your Klingon XBC. You fire six disruptors at me at the same time. I penetrate your shield...you don't penetrate mine. You subsequently loose one of your six disruptors, so it cannot fire the following turn. That extreme crunch power of the 24 point photons will mean taking big internal damage if they hit, while the disruptor stays essentially the same; more reliable, certainly, with built-in UIM and DERFACS, but still does the same potential maximum damage as before.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 08:21 pm: Edit

So if the numbers prove out; the solutions are to either increase the crunch of the Disruptor (more damage or more Disruptors) or reduce the crunch of the Photons (thus the 20pt Photon). Again, do the numbers require all four 24pt Photons to hit? If so what are the probabilities that all four will hit?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 09:56 pm: Edit

RBN: That's only part of the story regarding the numbers. It's the ship they are on too. The Fed XCC (take the average of all submissions) will have the power to use them. It doesn't have to go fast because it caught up with the enemy the turn prior.

Let's say turn A you start arming your photon. All you have to put in is 2 points each. You close with the enemy obliquely and shrug off a strike at range then turn in after he fires (which should be at least by Impulse 24 to get to fire again on Impulse 1 turn B). If you aren't very close already you can plot speed 30 (or what ever moves fast enough) until you catch (saving energy with a mid-turn speed change slower) him or he turns off exposing a weaker shield. If he exposes the weaker shield he grants you part of a missed photon (in that you don't have as much shield to destroy) so three do almost the same damage. If you catch him you choose the range. If you have a ECCM advantage (gains you a -1) you are at 1-6 to hit out to R2 and 1-5 out to R4. The chances of hitting with all four are very good. With out ECCM advantage it's still pretty good. The XCC can close the range unless the opponant runs which has it own dangers. Not much good about having a Fed with fast loads on your butt.

If you put 24 point photons on a GW ship then there would be little trouble with balance. But put them on a ship that can actually use them and you get nothing but "Close and Hose".

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 03:41 am: Edit

---

Quote:

With 24 Point Photons the Fed tactic can easilly be close, anchor, and hose (the old Supp.2 tactic that blew). Remember, to do this the Fed only has to be in close range for impulse #1 of any turn.

---

---

Quote:

Well, here's the problem I have with 24 pointers. In X1, or even GW, a full strike of overloaded photons in a CA vs. CA duel would expect to expend half it's damage against the opponenets shield in the opening stages of the battle. In these X2 ships, 24 points is doubling the output of the photon, but the shield protection itself and the internal size of the ship are not doubled. So, given a Klingon X-D7 with a 45 point forward shield, a hit with all four photons will tear that shield down and do a possible 51 more points of damage. That doesn't count phasers, drones or other weapons the Fed may have. 51 internals is a near crippling blow to any cruiser, no matter how advanced. On the following turn, assuming no delay is required for using such large torpedoes, the Fed can unleash an additional 48 points of photon damage.

---

---

Quote:

The chance to hit was 83%, using a narrow salvo (1-5 at range 2). We agree on the delay, though, and that's a big start.

---

---

Quote:

I think what Loren is referring to is this. Turn one, my 4 24-point photons hit your Klingon XBC. You fire six disruptors at me at the same time. I penetrate your shield...you don't penetrate mine. You subsequently loose one of your six disruptors, so it cannot fire the following turn. That extreme crunch power of the 24 point photons will mean taking big internal damage if they hit, while the disruptor stays essentially the same; more reliable, certainly, with built-in UIM and DERFACS, but still does the same potential maximum damage as before.

---

---

Quote:

In these X2 ships, 24 points is doubling the output of the photon, but the shield protection itself and the internal size of the ship are not doubled.

---

---

Quote:

If you put 24 point photons on a GW ship then there would be little trouble with balance. But put them on a ship that can actually use them and you get nothing but "Close and Hose".

---

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 08:16 am: Edit

---

Quote:

How often is that going to happen.
The Klingon doesn't have to pay warp to arm his photons...the only reason a Klingon will fight at R2 is if the Klingon want to.
We need to talk about combat occouring at actual X2 combat ranges...which like almost all other starship duels will be as soon as the Phasers are in effective range or R8.

---

---

Quote:

The simple truth is that if a player wants to pretend his Federation vessel is JAWS then he will and thus will play like that.

---

---

Quote:

Let us not Cry foul that the X2 Photons could Jack-pot...they could just as easily all miss ( if in the R5-8 bracket ).
Instead let's look at average damage results.

---

---

Quote:

That's a really unfair comparison.
What this.
MY & GW.
2 alternating pairs of Photons through a jackpot maximum of 32 points of damage against a 30 box sheild...result 1.0666
X1
4 Fastloaded pairs of Photons Jackpot for 48 damage against a 40 box sheild....result 1.2
X2
2 alternating pairs of Photons Jackpot against a 48 box sheild...result 1.0

---

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 09:02 am: Edit

Guys I have the ship defs for them. So if anyone wants to do the battles just email me for them.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit

How about adding in the HEB (4:17PM/06JUN03), where ranges can become jumpy at the last second?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Most XCA's have 24 point warp engines so applying 16 points to photons and moving 31 is no problem.

On the following turn if in range you can plot speed what ever because you finnish loading the photons during EA and fire on impulse one. If you still need to close the range a bit then plot speed 28 for the first eight impulses then drop to 16 for the remainder to save major energy.

Of course I said that clearly before in the post in which I'm being quoted but that part seems to have been skipped.

If the opponant is facing you then closing the range is a simple matter since they are helping by moving towards you. If the opponant is making you catch him then he is NOT FACING YOU WITH HIS MAJOR PORTION OF WEAPONS while you are facing him. There isn't much fire, compairatively being returned. After the Feds alpha strike, the balance is tipped. If that tip occures at R0-1 it is guarenteeded to tip in the Feds favor. BUT with 16 less internals from only allowing 20 point photons the enemy could deal a good return blow to the Fed. 16 weapons and power make ALL the difference.

The X2 Fed should and can dance or hammer. Probably would be fun to play but with the potential to win with one alpha, what's different about what ruined Supp. 2?

Consider the Suiside Shuttle. All that energy and vunerability why would you use a SS just to do 18 points of damage on a shield. The answer is you wouldn't. An SS should be used after Alpha strikes. When there is less vunerability due to lack of unfired weapons and a down shield to go through. Two enemies exchange alphas and down shields and wipe out hull and hit a few weapons. Both are left with hurt but viable platforms. But then one hits with a SS and the other begins the next turn with 18 less weapons and power. They have no way to win baring stupidity of opponant and SFB'ers aren't stupid so...

Ships only have 10 to 16 weapons. The extra 16 damage makes the difference beween an opponant that is still in the game or weaponless. Sure, his ship is still on the map but it's worthless. Meanwhile the Feds can finnish him at his lesure. Fun...once.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 08:50 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

How often? As often as I want. Happens all the time when playing a Fed. Shoot, most of the time Fed players won't even fire then; they'll wait until the hit range 1 and can't miss.

---

---

Quote:

The bottome line is that a Fed XCA with 24 point torpeodoes will be doing battleship like damage against non-battleship targets. No ship, not even a starbase, can ignore that kind of damage.

---

---

Quote:

The simple truth is that all Fed players will do exactly that. The chance to destroy any ship you play against in one salvo is too good to pass up...and with the warp power these ships have, they can do it.

---

---

Quote:

Now, that's an unfair comparison. Deliberately cutting the number of photons fired in half to justify your position is bad form. It isn't a case of 2 alternating pairs at 48 points against a 40 point shield. It's a case of 4 24 point photons against a 40 point shield. To follow your example:

GW: 4 16 points photons against a 30 point shield: 34 internals.

X2: 4 24 point photons against a 40 point shield: 56 internals.

With fastloads, there is no reason to cycle fire your 24 point torpedoes. You can achieve the same results with a better chance to get some hits by firing 12 point fastloads every turn. A Fed that can arm 24 point torpedoes is going to arm them all and go for a quick kill. There is no need or reason to cycle them in that way when you can fastload.

---

---

Quote:

GW: 4 16 points photons against a 30 point shield: 34 internals.

X2: 4 24 point photons against a 40 point shield: 56 internals.

---

---

Quote:

MJC, I am well aware that you want 24 point photons. However, the simple fact is that the Fed XCA's we are all posting and seeing have more than enough power to arm and hold these and still chase down any target they choose. And when they do, with an automatic to-hit at range 0-1, the game will be all but over. They could never do that before, and it's an unbalancing advantage. You can argue average damage all day, but the way the game is set up and the type of ships we're seeing will allow the Fed to not go for average damage, but to go for the quick hammer blow.

---

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 08:59 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Ships only have 10 to 16 weapons. The extra 16 damage makes the difference beween an opponant that is still in the game or weaponless. Sure, his ship is still on the map but it's worthless. Meanwhile the Feds can finnish him at his lesure. Fun...once.

---