SPP: I was clear on that. What you post is pretty much what I figured but one never knows what sort of clues one might get when one opens the door. Like I said, I don't expect much if anything but closed doors yield no clues.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Loren Knight and SPP: I never claimed it was good advice. After all, I'm just a civilian who wondered into the wrong area.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Raymond Ford:

And no one is upset with you asking the question. It was valid in a sense, but suffered from the age old problem of narrow perspective. In short, you seemed to be asking 'what has the only G1G in the entire Klingon Navy been doing elsewhere'. Since there is more than one G1G the question had no real meaning. If there had been only one G1G, or very few of a particular ship type, the question would have been valid.

For example: "What intelligence do we have on the movements of the IKV Regulator?"

There is only one D5I (the flagship of the ISF), so its specific movements can have meaning.

Or another example would have been to ask: "Have the Klingons only been using the A389 for these types of missions? (Thought to yourself based on the longer reply above, thus leading you to ask Computer, review mission profiles, of the Seven Confirmed insertions, how many were conducted by the A389? Is the A389 one of the four G1Gs that have been active during the six month period, or is it one of the replacements?"

There are other questions that could be asked, but you have to keep in mind that even though this planet is central to the "story arc", it is not the be all and end all of the war, but really a realtively minor backwater (although Colonel Baluda probably would not like characterizing his home that way . . . to him it is probably the most important planet in the Federation and enough of his friends shed blood for it).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

I hate to say this, but it might be better, no matter how much you want to ask, to make it a point to hold off on asking subsequent questions until you can check rules references, not rules references in advance of questions you may want to ask, but at least the ones included in a response. In this case, I actually read your 50,000 kilometer request as asking for the best information that could be obtained, and that was what I gave you with the rules listing to explain why there just was not any more that could be gotten, i.e., that level M was unobtainable.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

SPP-

understood.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:10 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

I need to apologize, I do not think I expressed my thoughts very well.

What I was trying to say is that it was very clear you were trying to use the Tactical Intelligence Rules to determine, if possible, if a team was in fact dropped on the planet, and to determine, if it was possible, when the team was dropped and thereby get around the decoys by, at the very least, being able to narrow the focus of the drop to one hexside of the planet. And if you got that far, then try to narrow it further, backtracking to a specific release point of when the crew level on the G1G shifted.

The existing rules, which I cited, made very plain that you just were not going to get a read on the G1G's crew levels.

So knowing what you were trying to do, I went ahead and gave you the final answer from the computer and included the rules references so that you would know why it was the final answer.

But note, you WERE IN CHARACTER, it was a valid thing to start the anaylsis, and I had no problem with your trying to do so. From a "story arc" situation, it might have been a point in the story that you "succeeded", but in this case, you (and your staff, the guys that work for you) are coming up with, in essence, "insufficient data".

For questions you might ask in effort to try to glean something (I am not saying you will), you might look at the reply to Raymond Ford about three messages up.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick-
No apology is needed (or, I suspected warranted), but I thank you all the same for the thought.

I was incorrect in the way I phrased my question...and I (in reviewing the post) find that it was indeed vague and open to interpretation.

That was my fault, not yours.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Stepping out of character-

Raymond ford, Have you been assigned a "role"?

As witnessed by my ineffective questions above, I could really use a cracker jack Electronic Warfare officer...(lt? ensign? senior Enlisted warrant or petty officer (depending on being navy or marine)?

The next question to the "computer" should be succinct and to the point...otherwise we could waste far too much time and bandwidth on the exercise!

My thought is to ask a question on G1G operations and subsequent activity at the locations where the G1G's were encountered. Any thoughts?

SPP-please do not respond to this particular post until or unless it is reviewed and modified by either Col Knight or Raymond Ford. I think both of them may have something to contribute on this. Thank you.JW

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Jeff: The answer to Raymond Ford indicates that about 5% of all attempted drop-offs by a lone G1g included an attack on planetary defenses. (4 out of 124 attacked defenses; 2 were jumped by defenses and 1 remained hidden except for other confirming intelligence.) The key question at this time is to ask what part of those defenses were attacked and where the landed forces were located when those were removed. That won't accomplish anything should this be either a dummy drop or Klingon forces that choose to remain hidden but those should scarce be a concern. This way the defending forces can maximize chances for preventing a successful sabotage attempt without dispersing forces to cover every possible minor target or burning out personnel through exhaustion.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Another thing that should be considered is that the G1G was on a supply mission to existing assets - perhaps it dropped of special equipment to carry out a particular action (i.e. create a scenarion rule that we must operate under in the event of an assault).

The way to attempt to counter this would be to have the DEFSATS begin scanning the surface for energy emmissions or alloys that would not be expected, and to have my units investigate anomalies. Additionally, sensor records should be examined to determine what, if any, energy emissions came from or were directed to the planet by surface units or the G1G, respectively. For instance, the G1G could have simply communicated with existing units to inform them of a pending attack.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Devoting the Defense Sat's sensors to look downwards will prevent them from scaning for enemy.

The GWS can only cover so much.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Scott:

If you'll recall, the DefSats were performing sensor scans of the planet when they detected the G1G. Therefore, I don't think scanning of the planet is exclusive to its defensive scans.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Here are the two lists of the PDU, the Ground Base deployment, and the CO's spent.

(All at the bottom of the page)

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/23/3318.html?1046064904

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/23/3310.html?1045983351

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Since we have two GWS (360 coverage), the DefSats scans shouldn't be needed in any event - the special sensors have a far greater range than the DefSats.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 01:30 am: Edit

SPP:

I didn't think that anyone was upset about my question. My previous message was intended to light-hearted, but humor doesn't always come across well in this medium.

Also, thank you for your explaination of the problem of narrow perspective. Sometimes one has to step back and look at the bigger picture.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 02:03 am: Edit

I thought the DefSats were checking both space and planet as much as they can. Though with only the +1 shift to ECCM max, I don't see any way in the rules for the Defsats to produce good information on the planet. The only good unit at Tac Intel possessed near the planet is the EWF which can get to level M.

Much of the rest of the information that the character counterparts would know is unavailable to us reading this. How far can Klingons move and still conceal their presence from scans would tell us where to concentrate searches. (I expect Klingon equipment to have ability to not be easily detected or the whole idea of landing a commando team would be pointless.) All that being predicated on Washing Machine Kharlie not simply being an attempt to stir up the defenders into chasing ghosts.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 02:30 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

I don't have a role in this scenario. My first post was months after the roles had been assigned. I'd be glad to help out in any capacity available.

Regarding the next question that you should ask the computer, I think that SPP made an interesting suggestion.

From SPP's 10/06/03, 06:08PM message addressed to me:

"Computer, review mission profiles, of the Seven Confirmed insertions, how many were conducted by the A389? Is the A389 one of the four G1Gs that have been active during the six month period, or is it one of the replacements?"

These questions (I believe) are intended to establish the chances that an actual insertion took place on this planet. Recall that a total of 124 missions of this type have been recorded in the past six months. 7 of those were confirmed as inserting a raiding party, 16 were confirmed as dummy drops, and 101 are unconfirmed as either. It would be too big of a coincidence if all or most of the seven confirmed insertions were conducted by A389. It would be an even bigger coincidence if A389 is a replacement G1G, since this would indicate that it conducted its share of the confirmed insertions in less than six months. If A389 conducted a high proportion of the confirmed insertions, this would increase the odds that its mission here was to insert a raiding party, rather than being a dummy mission. Even so, this would not be a guarantee, only an indicator.

I'd ask the question myself, but I don't want to overstep certain bounds. The people with assigned roles are playing in the scenario. I am a spectator with the ability to comment and make suggestions, but without licence to actively participate.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 04:04 am: Edit

Raymond: We could find a position for you or swap you into a position whose current occupant is not currently participating. Or if nothing else, you could take over my slot.

It has been 17 years since I left the service and time I spent in 1986 guarding the Frankfurt Thrift Shop from potential Soviet Paratroops hardly qualifies as the optimum real world experience to portray the XO of a fictional unit. (Though I have been amused by how much that event has shaped my suggestions for this exercise.)

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 04:22 am: Edit

On the fuzzy edge of character.

Two questions not realy related to my role but which I might brainstorm if asked.

So perhaps in Officers Mess A

....." would it be possible to lend the dafsats ECCM? and if so would this help them to anything useful in a planetary scan?"

On a slightly differing tac.

Does someone who has tacintel to hand fancy looking up what info the G1G could have gleaned on its pass? I believe the G1G came in under maximum ECM so it will be one shifted by the atmosphere initially, three shifted against ground bases and two shifted against everything else once it is lent OEW.

SPP at what range/angle to the planet did the G1G start to recieve OEW?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 11:51 am: Edit

Paul Stovell:

Scene: Officer's Mess, Ground Military Garrison

Hearing the officer's speaking, one of the technicians looked up and said "Uh . . . sir. I am afraid that due to the effects of the (insert technical term here) that there is just no way to lend electronic warfare to a DefSat. This is why they are not mentioned in manual (G24.21)."

In simplistic terms, DefSats are not listed in (G24.21) as units to which EW can be lent, and while they have some functions of mines, (R1.15E) does not provide them access to (M4.44).

Scene: Captain Stovell's Office, Ground Military Garrison

"Sir, as directed we did a computer anaylsis of the operation of a PF making a pass on the planet with known data parameters."

"Yes, sir," said the second technician, continuing "With the known information we are fairly certain that on its initial pass, prior to battalion commander ordering that it be jammed, it probably was able to identify at least half of the battalion's positions, (level K information was gained), and probably the Klingon intel boys will be able to extrapolate the rest from that data."

"How was that possible." Captain Stovell demanded. "The intel section told me that that PF was not using any ECCM."

"Well, the problem is that in the excit . . . er . . . during the incident no one directed the that the bases employ any EW at all." said the first technician. "As you know, the EW systems of the bases are generally not operating when they are in standby mode, as continuous operation is expensive and requires more maintenance and uses up spare parts faster."

"Yes, and while Colonel Knight ordered the Sensor Stations to jam the PF, but it was half way through its pass before that took effect according to the computer models." the second technician added.

In short, the PF starting hex (13 hexes away) and acceleration (from zero to speed 15) means that, if the PF were in say 0315, it moved to 0327 (12 hexes) at which point it was getting level K information on the planet in hex 0328. The PF then sideslipped into 0427 (move #13), moved to hex 0428 (move #14), then turned and moved into 0329 (move #15, end of Turn #1). Because it was not being jammed during Turn #1, it only had a small amount of atmosphere to look through, and the ground bases were on standby. Basically on Turn #1 the Battalion had no access to Energy Allocation. So the Ground Warning Stations were conducting (G24.29), but probably were not using any ECCM (they would only use that to intensively scan something of interest or suspicion outside of combat operations). This is because using power or operating at full level adds to maintenance load and increases the chance of failure during combat operations (when you are going to be running at full level, i.e., all the reactors on line putting out every erg of power that they can, etc.). This suffices to pick up a ship, or even a couple of PFs coming in very rapidly, but that is not the profile of a commando insertion which is much harder to detect. Part of making it hard to detect is keeping the signature down as low as possible, i.e., only ONE PF, not two or more. Even just a second PF would have increased the chance of detection exponentially, something like from 1 chance in a hundred for one PF to be detected becomes 1 chance in ten for two PFs trying this mission at the same time, and for three detection is automatic.

During Turn #2 the GWS both switched to OEW (although only one had any real effect) on Colonel Knight's orders, and this affected the PF when it needed to shoot down that drone.

So in essence, the PF got level K on the whole planet due to its close pass and not being affected by more than three points of ECM (One point of atmosphere and two points of ground clutter bonus) during Turn #1.

Further, while DefSats have limited suites, they do scan, and do need to be maintained (visited by maintenance crews in shuttles, Colonel Knight, take the hint here, and listen to your Quartermaster or you may have trouble later on). And sometimes you have to shut down the "big Sensors" on the Ground Warning Stations (usually just one at a time) in order to perform maintenance on them, and at such times you fall back on other scanning abilities even if shorter ranged. So the DefSats allow more "redundancy" even if they are not as good as a Ground Based Phaser-4 in scanning, they do scan on their own.

Further, a DefSat being in orbit, can study atmospheric phenomena over wide areas of the planet's surface, something a Ground Warning Station or Ground Based Defense Phaser-4 or Ground Military Garrison (as examples) cannot do.

So, the PF got level K information on all six hex-sides of the planet, and you may feel free to take the matter up with Colonel Knight (BatCom), Major Wells (XO), Major Wile (S3), and Captain Howell (S2), or perhaps just with Lt.s Lampert, Conn, and Frazier.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Regarding Def Sat maintenance: I thought I had given the order to do that after the initial search when a shuttle is available. All shuttles were scanning for the first few hours, and fighters for the first hour (half loaded).

Quartermaster: Def Sat maintenance should commence by the end of the day.

The EWF should be scheduled to patrol during any maintenance on either of the GWS.

All cap patrols shall be fully armed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 01:39 pm: Edit

General comment:

Remember that alert status is not something that can be maintained indefinitely. Even at WS-0 there are normally two fighters ready to take off as opposed to any fighters actually in flight.

In theory, right now, you have all the two squad garrisons of your bases "standing too", all of the base personnel are at their duty stations. Most of Captain Chobot's Maneuver company is out "beating the bushes", and Colonel Baluda's planetary guard battalion is assembled and beating the bushes.

How long can you keep this up before your troops start falling over themselves in exhaustion? Before your base crews start dozing in their station chairs? How long are you going to be feeding emergency rations because your troops cannot leave their posts?

Remember, Colonel Knight, that while most of Captain Stovell's (as an example) firing battery probably got a pretty good night's sleep (being in different time zones than you on the planet), you yourself were dragged out of bed with less than a hour's sleep.

And I did not see (I may have missed it) any order from you about doing anything to the DefSats.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Richard Wells:

Thank you for the offer of a position in this scenario. Please let me know if and when such a position becomes available.

Regarding your position as XO, you've got me beat as far as real world military experience. The closest thing to it that I can claim is working as a contractor on Fort Hood for awhile.

Oh, and growing up as a Navy brat.

I've been a civilian all my life. Most of my knowledge of the military results from reading to feed my interest in the subject.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Easiest post to slide Raymond ford into would be:

Major Raymond Ford, executive officer, Planetary Home Defense battalion. Subordinate to Lt Colonel Baluda, Commander of Planetary Home Defense Battalion.

Battalion Organization:

Infantry Company: 9 Boarding Parties and one HWS squad.

Mechanized Company: 6 boarding parties, two tanks, and 9 GCVs.

Transport Company: 11 trucks.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Oh, as an aside, it should be obvious by this time that one of the things the G1G accomplishes is a fairly clear explanation of how the Klingons know the deployment pattern of the 429th, i.e., the G1G got the data on its fly by.