"...And finding a decoy trace does not mean you get to stop looking as the decoy trace may have been left by an actual team in an effort to throw off the search."

Ooooh my head is beginning to hurt!

Its beginning to look like we would be better off sifting through the sands of the desert with a fork than be able to track the possibility of commandos with the facilities and capabilities we have on planet.

That being said, I formally recommend to Col Knight that he request a "fly by scan" by the first available Star Fleet vessel...

Preferably a scout...but lets resolve this issue ASAP so we can concentrate on our primary responsibilit.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Major Wile:

Nice try, but do you have any idea how many YEARS of uninterrupted scanning it would take for a Scout to find one Klingon team on a planet?

Ask yourself a simple question: If it was possible to do this with a quick scan, how long would Colonel Baluda have lasted as resistance fighter?

It is one thing to scan the confines of a single starship (example in TOS would be looking for Spock on a ship load of Romulans), it is quite another thing to scan the entire biosphere of a planet looking for Klingons who are taking precautions to avoid being spotted.

I mean heck, TOS gave us things like a "robot" impersonating a starfleet officer without drawing attention ("I, Mudd"), a Klingon surgically altered to appear human rising up to be the aid of a powerful commissioner ("Trouble with Tribbles"), and the transporter system did not even scream bloody murder when a robot was directly beamed up disguised as Captain Kirk ("What are Little Girls Made Of").

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Colonel Knight:

I would max at 72 hours. Beyond that they will be far enough away from a landing site to make searching impossible, and will be entrenched somewhere living off the land (plus, as described below, I think the attack will come within 72 hours, up to one week).

First, I would identify the top five possible strategic targets.

Second, I would look at landing sites within 100 miles of each strategic site (i.e. 3 days of serious, spec-ops overland travel).

Third, I would contact every settlement within a 200 miles radius and determine if anything is out of the ordinary, paying close attention to stolen vehicles.

Fourth, I would reinforce those sites with my troopers, and call it a day.

We want to avoid wasted effort, and let's not get into a tizzy about a landing team and completely change the planet's strategic defenses. I fully expect an assault in less than a week, probably in the next 3 days.

I suspect we can keep the boys at WS-1 or WS-2 for 72 hours, after that we need to sleep. I suggest someone computer model this level of deployment.

Also, I think sending two fighters to the edge of the system with sensor pods and probe drones directed at nearby celestial objects (such as a nebula or or dust cloud) would be a good idea..... but do we have any extended range drones, or can we rig one for slow, long duration travel? I would also direct the GWS to focus their sensors on these areas.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

SPP:

Thank you. I wasn't sure if the search areas were spread over the whole planet or just a part of it.

By the way, have you worked out the answers to my previous questions? You stated that it might take some time, so please don't think that I'm trying to rush you or anything. Just curious.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

SPP-

It would appear that there is no way that the 429th could track the possibility of Klingon commandos.

If even a Scout ship would require years of continous scanning to undertake the task (with the implication of not being successful) putting more time, effort and consuming our finite resources in a fruitless search is illogical.

I submit we would be better off returning to normal watch status. If a ground unit gets attacked, we have confirmation of a Klingon ground presence, if there are no Klingons on the planet, any effort spent chasing them is distracting us from our primary responsibility.

Steve! honestly! you have convinced me that it is truely a fruitless task!

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

(OOC) I don't agree that a search would be entirely fruitless.

Searching only the sites near our ground bases and other assets will not take as long as searching all of the sites. Marc Baluda proposed something similar to this. Such a search would reduce the chances of a commando raid in the next few days. Of course, this assumes that a commando team is on the planet.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Raymond Ford-

True, while it would be possible to search a limited area, we can't contain a perimeter indefinitely nor can we ensure that the "contained area" would remain free of infiltrators for extended periods.

Until there is proof that there are infiltrators on the planet, any efforts we take to hunt them is distracting us from our primary duty. (i.e. defense of the planet).

My efforts have been directed at trying to ascertain if there is a presence of Klingons on the planet...it is apparent that there is nothing in our power that would allow us to say,

"Computer- Begin a systematic scan of the planet using Def Sats, and all available ground bases facilities to compare all living vertabrate life forms on the planet with library data. report any lifeforms that conform to Klingon characteristics to Col Knight, Col Baluda and the Duty officer on watch at GMG.

This request does not have priority over active duty command functions or ongoing requests, you are authorized to use the Sensors and Scanners of all facilities when the systems are idle and not in use."

with only 3 1/2 million inhabitants it will take the computer a while to work its way through the list, but eventually, any Klingons masqerading in the population will be uncovered.

pity the computer is not capable of performing many repetitive scans on an ongoing basis on any beings that happen to come into range of existing bases or Def Sat orbital paths.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Separate subject, we have previously discussed using the fighters to conduct a fighter sweep patrol, there are a number of targets within in the steller system (including the moon in orbit above us).

With the possibility of Klingons on planet, is releasing the fighters for a reconaisance sweep prudent at this time? it was an operational training program that was to be scheduled.

Does this need to be canceled at this time?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 01:53 am: Edit

Jeff: This is a planet so some sites could be thousands of miles from the nearest possible target. Those landing sites could have their searches safely deferred for years.

Checking all the sites close to major targets could be done quickly and seems to be prudent. If the defenders set up an efficient transporter search regimen designed to examine each landing site within a certain radius from bases for signs of personnel, only a small number of troops would be out of position and the entire search could be done quickly. Might not be able to locate them but determining if a force has been landed nearby will allow for a better change in defenses.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 09:12 am: Edit

Richard Wells-

I am not disputing the ability to check the environment surrounding the bases. What I am pointing out is the factor that just checking it initially does nothing to prove or disprove the existance of Klingons on planet.

Also, as SPP has pointed out, we do not know the intentions of the phantom Klingon commandos.

It could be as simple as "stay lost for X time period, at which point in time move to Y coordinates and attack Z target"

By all means, I support checking the area around each ground base, but unless the commandos are very dumb or we are exceedingly lucky the chance of success is not great.

I would also like to point out that the planet in question had been occupyied by the Klingons for an extended time...we have no way of knowing if the Klingons were deployed to a distant location with the intent of "activating" the abandoned klingon facilities...potentially it could be anything form a squadron of Klingon Tanks to a casual fighter base with stored (but operational) fighters with drones to a early warning station to "lend" supporting Electronic warfare factors (ECM or ECCM) to an atacking Klingon taskforce. It also could include Transporter artiliery.

All I am suggesting is that we be aware of the potential risk posed by the phantom Klingon Commandos while still attending to our primary duty.

If the Klingons are spotted on the planet, then we should mobilize and deploy the manuver units to deal with the Klingons...but keeping our forces at highest alert for an extended time (days weeks or months) looking for something that may not be there WILL detract from our ability to defend the planet.

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:59 am: Edit

One suggestion. The EWF gains level M with a one shift which it will through the atmosphere. If it flies low enough it may even be able to spot non-humans from humans. If it did a pass around our 6 GCL then it maybe possible to eliminate the possiblity of the elusive potential commandos from being in position to attack our bases within a defined period. I don't know what rate of movement without vehicles the commandos can be expected to make in y180 or how fast an EWF could make a sweep or over what area.

Computer(SPP) could you give us an indication if this approach has any promise.

If we could do for example do a weekly sweep (say taking up the allowed flight hours for our EWF) and reasonaly expect to spot any "Klingons" within a weeks march of our bases then the defsats and mobile forces could content themselves on inspecting vehicles.......

I suspect the rosy picture above is'nt likely but to play with assumptions. IF we assume SFB techs cancel and a EWF(with support of defsats, transported BP, etc) are equilivent to a modern day manhunt.... It could be that a squad might only expect to make a few miles every night with any degree of safety. It might then require weeks to break our "sensor" perimeter or even stand no realistic chance except when the commando can hide/move through populated areas.

BIC (back in character)

"Computer I've had a idea I'd like to run past you before I risk taking it to the Colonel."

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:17 am: Edit

On another tack.

edoc to: Col Baluda

Would it be possible without over stretching your forces to have a squad always on guard at each GCL. My assumption being that these guard the ground bases or approaches to same and have good (maybe even as good as the commandos) sensors and might stand a very good chance of stopping any infiltration attempts?

I'd guess a platoon at each GCL would be neccessary and one further on rotation. I would be glad to have my men support yours.

SPP I'm not sure if the 2 BP each of the firing battery bases have are part of the operational crew of the base and therefore can in reality only be used as BP when at alert status (the "off duty" GBDP crew) or are a security detail of two formal marine squads or somewhere in between?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

You are trying to get around an existing dichotomy.

If you can always detect everything that is near your planet, then there is no such thing as smugglers. But SFB and TOS background says that there are smugglers, that stuff (not quite routinely, and not without risk) is moved past the security systems.

The G1G situation is an example of a method not necessarilly used by Pirates. It was highly risky.

Obviously it would have been simpler to use an "Orion" to make the delivery, but if you did, you run the risk that even if the Orion Captain did not sell out your team, someone on the crew might.

Now, can you san an entire biosphere looking for one individual? Again, a problem. If it is easily possible, then you just set the system to continously scan for any "new life sign" and again, there are no smugglers because they are automatically spotted.

Further, you are "shutting down" GURPS and Prime Directive. How can players have an "adventure" where they are sneaking up on the Klingon fortress if you establish that the Klingon Defense Satellites will vaporise them the moment they appear within 50,000 kilometers of the planet?

So if I say "sure, the Klingon team (if there is one) is easily spotted by the defenses and eliminated with no trouble", what is the point in having role playing?

And consider this.

If the Klingons come, silence the battalion's guns, sweep its fighters from the stars, land in force and storm the battalion's strongpoints, will Major Wile:

A.) Surrender and become a Klingon prisoner because it is obviously impossible to escape into the outback to conduct guerrilla operations because the Klingon sensors will find him and the Klingons will attack.

B.) Break Contact at the end with the men he can gather around himself to carry on a campaign of hit-and-run attacks and sabotage until the Federation can return.

Paul Stovell:

Article in Captain's Log #22 Page #16 says that the BPs at the Ground Stations belong to the "General Defense Company" (in this case commanded by Captain Michael C. Grafton). The troops in this company "rotate" with the troops in the "Maneuver Company" at various times (as explained in the article). So they are two "formal marine squads". Since there are ten men (in theory) between the two squads, they probably rotate shifts securing access to the base (say two of the men on duty pulling security, two asleep, five conducting training, one doing paperwork at any one time), with all ten awake and at duty posts when the alert sounds.

Raymond Ford:

Not ignoring you, just have not had time to work up the requested data.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Paul Stovell: I recommended a deployment of troops to Col. Knight that included deployment of my troops at bases. However, I cannot order these deployments. My recommendations are only that.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick:

Is there any way to add the 429th's (and local) assets and a list of officers to the header of this topic? It would greatly facilitate discussion.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 02:10 pm: Edit

SPP-

I have not surrendered, nor do I intend to surrender. If the Processed Bovine Product hits the impeller air circulation device I will do my duty.

That said, my points to Raymond Ford and Richard Wells were intended to accept the premise that

a) it is possible to insert personnel planet side in such a way that the 429th could not realistically detect. And

b) That assuming such an infiltration occurred, the 429th could not detect the hostile personnel in the "outback".

Bottomline, we could deploy every fulltime and reserve soldier on the planet, work the transporter repeaters on the Def Sats until they are worn out and run the tanks and GCV's until the treads and power plants go long past readlined and have no enemy contacts to show for it, or maintain a high state of readiness, and be alert to any infiltrators as they (if they) approach the list of potential targets.

If we had even a 1 in 6 chance per attempt of identifying/targeting/arresting the infiltrators, I'd be in there pushing for resolution.

The problem with not knowing if there is an enemy or where the enemy is, we run the risk of having all our troops deployed when the commandos sieze their target.

Atleast if we concentrate on readiness and do our best to anticipate enemy actions, we have a better chance to react with overwhelming force.

Otherwise, we become overcommited, over deployed and worn out just when the enemy shows up.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Marc Baluda:

I can send you copies, but the problem is having to go in and re-edit a header everytime something changes. For example (recent) adding Major Ford to your battalion.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 02:39 pm: Edit

SPP, did you see my question of how many spare Defense Sat's do we have, and what type (ie all Drone, a mix of Photon/Phaser)?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

I saw it, sorry I did not respond.

In theory the battalion has one, maybe two, spare DefSats, but these would only be used as replacements/maintenance floats. If DefSat A's computer goes on the fritz, or DefSat B's drone launcher freezes up, or DefSat C got badly shot up by that Orion Free Traitor that broke orbit when Colonel Baluda's people questioned its papers, doing the major overhaul in space would simply be too difficult. In such circumstance you haul out the "maintenance float", service it, and shuttle it up to orbit to replace the one that needs to be repaired.

The thing is that your guys are already making repeated trips to visit the DefSats as is, probably about once a month, maybe more frequently. Every once in a while the DefSats are going to signal an internal problem that you guys have to fix. Most of it is minor, but none of it is something you can do with a transporter (transporting a man in a space suit next to a DefSat just means he watches the DefSat go Zooming Away, as it is in orbit and the transporter cannot put him in orbit, so you have to go up by shuttle and match the DefSat's orbit in order to do even minor work).

All of your DefSats, but those in service and those in the maintenance float (and one of those is probably opened up and spread around a work area even now) are all that the battalion can maintain. If the battalion lost a DefSat or two, it would put up its maintenance floats while waiting for replacements, but putting them all up risks the planet being exposed for considerable time to visits by Orions after they are destroyed or malfunction. So it is not going to happen.

As has been noted before, there are stocks of things on the planet that are simply not reflected in a given scenario. So you are not going to be allowed to talk Colonel Knight into putting up the Maintenance float (and if he were to try to order you to do it, you would in character be adamantly opposed due to the maintenance problems it would create).

Also allowing you to pull things from "stocks" would impact the base BPV of the battalion for the background, and that is already set.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 04:18 pm: Edit

I'm not looking to put stuff from "in stock" into our force, but to change what is out there to suprise any new force that comes to attack us.

IE changing 2 Drone-Sats for 2 Photon Sats.

If you say, "Scott, you can prepare 1 defense sat for replacement per week, you have in your stock a Photon Sat and a Phaser Sat and 3 Drone Sats (right now the 3 drone sats are in orbit)." Then hey, at least we know what our options are, for Col.Knight to choose from.

The next force might come with (example) 3G1D+G1S, expecting 3 additional drones from the defense sats that they have to wait for them to fire to spot them.

The G1S then powers the sensor to 'turn off' drones. But then, 2 Photon Sats pop out and fire.

Thus the PFs not having EW from the scout because they choose the wrong way to power the EW channel.

Just an idea.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

And as I said that gets back to the BPV issue. A standard DefSat costs 20 BPV. Drone DefSats with medium speed dones cost 23 BPV, and Drone DefSats with fast speed drones cost 26 BPV. The BPV of the battalion is already set, nominally replacing two drone DefSats with two non-drone DefSats reduces the BPV by 12 points. So the option is not available.

I fear that in essence the spare DefSats have to be of the same type as the battalion has already deployed.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit

OK, thanks SPP. Now I know.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Got caught up in RL stuff and spent too much time debating my HLT design. I'll review this thread this afternoon. Sorry.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 02:35 am: Edit

I've been following this thread only intermittantly, so this may already have been covered. Were there any communities (loosely defined) which were Klingon sympathizers or loyalists during the occupation? If so, some heightened scrutiny of these groups (to the extent they are known) would seem to be in order. Also, if such Klingon loyalists did exist, the Klingons may have taken some with them when they abandoned the planet, trained them, and returned them to foment insurgencies or conduct sabotage/assassinations. Assuming an actual commando insertion did occur, the people you're looking for might not be ethnic Klingons. As a suggestion from a lurker, you might want to ask whether any of the previous confirmed insertions involved or were suspected to have involved the use of native sympathizers.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 02:43 am: Edit

Related to my previous post - I've seen no mention made of using police forces. If this planet has a population of 3 million or so (I think I remember it as being in that vicinity), the civilian police forces would number several hundred at minimum and more likely a couple of thousand. Many of the jobs the military forces are doing are not suitable to police forces but some consideration needs to be given towards what jobs the police could do (intelligence gathering in towns and cities as part of their routine anti-crime activities, or temporarily augmenting the defense of critical targets, for example).