R&D would already have been done, just not implemented as the races had to stick with what they had already working being the build pace was totally maxed out.

This build pace would come to a screeching halt. X2 build pace would be a near stand still compaired. So the money for the X2 ships would be far less than what was spent just a short time ago.

Also, some funding for X2 would already have been in place.

X2 doesn't start in Y205, that's when the ships first appear.

The designers are of a mind set for a time during Y195-Y200. When designing X2 they didn't know if OpU would succeed.

Some seem to be of the mind that X2 is conceved, designed and implemented all in one year (Y205).

I say that X2's beginnings are rooted in X1. That X1 is the prototype for X2 and that the situation called for implementing X1 before X2 was ready.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit

And if they didn't know that OpU would succeed, they would have to put some sort of sensors on the big capital ships, in order to hunt down RTN links.

That's either a full special sensor (as on the SSCS Goliath), or a limited special bridge (as Loren has proposed for X2)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 04:15 pm: Edit

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I have to agree with Cfant. Everyone will be broke and will be re-building their economies. If X2 is going to take place 8-12 years after Operation Unity when there is money to spend this would make sense.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 07:26 pm: Edit

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I believe until that time you will not see any new hulls or the expenditures for the R&D needed to make any type of "leaps & bounds" in technology.

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That's either a full special sensor (as on the SSCS Goliath), or a limited special bridge (as Loren has proposed for X2)

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I agree to a point. But, do remember that there is some balance built in. The warring powers have less income, but they also don't have enormous fleets to maintain anymore. A few squadrons of X-ships might be expensive, but are probably less so than big carrier task forces or battle groups.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

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>>I on the other hand think everyone will be tired of fighting.

>>Also, everyone will be broke. VERY broke after Operation Unity.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Okay, Number 9 for Brodie. This should be about right...

R2.?? Federation XCA version 9

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Whilst I prefer my own design I like #9 pretty well. It's a very interesting ship.

I have strong feelings that the X2 premere cruiser should be the most impresive ship to date. If that doesn't happen then why have X2 at all?

The phaser arcs on #9 make for an interesting design and would be very interested in trying it out. But if it were the premere X2 cruiser I would be underwhelmed.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 03:20 am: Edit

I like the old phaser arcs. Been that way for a hundred years. FH+LS/RS should really be fine.

It is not like this is 50 years later or anything. It's 20. 20 years is not that long to make up this new super uber crusier that is its own scout and everything else to boot.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 06:32 am: Edit

Frankly I still prefer #7. I'm just conservative that way. I know SVC wants something new and radical, but radical is very hard to balance.

The FX/RX phaser mountings might be the sort of thing he was looking for. Or he might like a completely new design philosophy. Like #6s layout.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:55 am: Edit

Don't know that SVC knows exactly what he's looking for but the FX/RX thing was one of his ideas. Personally I would never have thought it considerable without him saying so.

While the FX/RX phaser arrangement has it's advantages, especialy on the obique approach, it has the disadvantage of allowing damage access to every phaser on the ship if it comes from the R or L arc.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:00 am: Edit

I think alternate or expanded phaser arcs are a way to get more phasers to bear in any given arc without increasing the number mounted on the ship. Given the likely expense of X2 P5's, I can see certain races taking this approach as a way to optimize their ship. Not for everyone, but it does make a certain kind of sense. Consider a Fed. With six phasers mounted on the saucer the "normal" way, you can only get six to hit if the target is centerlined. With 6 mounted FX, you can hit with all sit anywhere except in your RA arc. Better coverage, without increasing the number of phasers carried. Not saying we have to go this way, just that there is a certain logic to it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 02:28 pm: Edit

I have always been partial to LS+RF/RS+LF arcs myself.

If you're going to do interesting arcs, Why be frax about it?

Large belts of phasers with great arcs might sound neat from a power-fantasy perspactive, but could actualy limit tactical choices. Otherwise, give everybody 360 weapons and be done with it, right?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 07:22 pm: Edit

Yeah...I don't want to FRAX-ify my Feds.

Now FRAXifying the Gorns, that would be different. 4LS+RF Ph-5s and 4RS+LF Ph-5s backing up enveloping plasma...now that's like the Frax but not exactly like the frax and therefore would be some fun.

Frax-ified Tholians sitting in a pinwheel behind a Blobular Web...now there's a race you can wite robot rules for!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Making the Boom Phaser on a Klingon; 360° might be fun ( although I'm not sure if it wouldn't make the Klingon get a particlarly high BPV after the refits ( even if the Refit is just making the BOOM Phasers into Ph-5s )...but maybe the Klingons deserve to have a higher BPV set of ships than the Feds at the end of the trade wars).

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 07:56 pm: Edit

That's the one, Mike! Very nice work. 12pt fast loads at speed 24. I really like the phaser arcs. I know they seem screwy but they are in keeping with SVC's musings. Not too shabby. Just out of curiosity how did you arrive at the 300 BPV? Did you compute that or did you WAG it? Also, don't see the Drone launchers on the SSD.

I'm going with the 8/12/16/20 X2-photons and the ASIF. I'll have to add them later.

MJC, hard to say right now. I guess we'll have to wait until after we playtest these ships.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:19 pm: Edit

We may have a problem with the XP refits to GW ships. IN CL27 pg25 Star Lynx. It specifies that;

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"it proved impossible to integrate an X-technology module into a standard technology warship hull."

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By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:43 pm: Edit

"New World Order" mounts

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 10:53 pm: Edit

The FX/RX was not SVC's idea. I pasted the quote that everyone's using into the X2 Library thread. He mentioned FX arcs, but not FX/RX.

Personally, I'd still like to see some variation among the races. If everyone went with frax phaser arcs, what fun would that be?

Take the Fed. The current 6 phasers in the saucer are FH, LS, RS. Perhaps moving the LS/RS up toward the front of the saucer would be an improvement. FH, FA/L, FA/R. But I can't see a phaser mounted in the saucer with more than a 180 arc, unless it's a 360 arc in the center of the saucer.

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XP - Not sure where to go, but I'm willing to at least wait until R8 - National Guard ships is published before taking a second look. Remember, National Guard is supposed to be GW tech on a MY hull, and XP is supposed to be X tech on a GW hull. If R8 is official, I'd like to see how that module mixes technology before tackling XP.

And, I don't think the entire timeline would need to be reworked if XP can't happen.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 02:40 am: Edit

I don't think that not being able to work X-Tech NWO modules into Standard Tech NWO spaces limits the possability of an XP refit. That only limits the types of modules applicable to NWO spaces. And XP refit would be something on the level of an overhaul where major portions of the ship are reconstructed to accomodate the new XP refits AND that the X-Tech is modified however necessary to make it work for that hull; each hull class requiring it's own design and testing before being put into action.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 02:46 am: Edit

It still makes no sense to me that you could take ships at the edge of the breaking point and add even more tech to them

The BCH,DW,CW all fall into this category. The BCH just cannot take anything else or it suffers from shock. A GW ship with X-photons for example would more than likely cripple itself with shock on the subsequent turn of firing. CWs and DWs are already maxed out frames as well. NCAs MIGHT be able to take on the additional strain, but even that is a big maybe as they are just big CWs.

By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 05:17 am: Edit

Christopher:
Yes that mught happen, but I do not see any problem with any of those ships gaining a new computer system and slight modification to the phasers, allowing X-Aegis and the extra EW capability

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 06:49 am: Edit

Loren the NWO boxes are designed to take a wide range of possibilities. IE they have to have all sorts of adaptability built into them. But X tech modules can't be integrated into the system because they simply aren't compatable with GW tech thats designed to handle all sorts of compatability issues.

At least thats my take on it. Frankly the only XP refit I can really see is Bats. Almost anything else is simply to difficult and/or expensive to put into obsolete hulls.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 08:50 am: Edit

Each XP hull and technology would have to be treated separately. Some would be XP compatible, others wouldn't. As Mark points out a computer upgrade of the fire control system would be unlikely to cause shock. Storage for TB or PPTs could be upgraded to X-standards. Likewise drone racks could be upgraded to handle X drones. To balance the PL-F to PL-L upgrade could be allowed, Fusions could lose their cool-down turn and the ESG and Snare might get upgrades. Every hull could get minor upgrades like those listed above.

Some sturdy classes could get more. Certain hulls that reduced the number of photons, like the DDG class, might find they can handle the shock of two X-Photons. Then again with the DDG being unable to spare the power to arm X-Photons and the limited supply of destroyer hulls in Y185 the Feds might find their money better spent elsewhere.

Others could be converted to full X-tech Andro war designs we haven’t seen yet. These designs are frequently classified X1R. Only a full X upgrade would get the engine power and maneuver advantages of an X ship.

We have limited X (XL) upgrades, partial X (XP) upgrades and full X (X1) upgrades. The lull in fighting experienced during the ISC repression would seem the opportune time to refit many ships with prototypes extend into the tail end of the General War. Large parts of the fleet should enter the period of the Andro war without an upgrade. By setting the upgrades here we create a historical timeline where any combination of X0/XL/XP/X1/Andro can be brought to battle. I prefer a staged approach to a Y175 type simultaneous galactic refit.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 09:33 am: Edit

Let me look for some examples.

X0: These ships would very rarely receive any X tech or only the most limited of upgrades:

Ancient hulls (Fed CL, Exception: Romulan)
Captured hulls (Hydran D7H, Tholian TK5)
Auxiliaries (WYN)
Police/National Guard ships
Some rare ships nearing the end of service life (Kzinti DD)
Support ships never intended to be in combat (Survey, some PFT, Tugs)
Historically extinct classes

XL: Certain classes had very little design room left for improvement:

Out of production ships nearing end of service life (Fed DD)
Limited life expectancy war classes (CW, DW)
Over stuffed ships (HDW)
Over gunned ships (DNH, BCH, CCH, Maulers, any leader variant that gained heavy weapons over its base hull)
Sub-Frigates (Klingon E3)
Escorts with Full Aegis

XP: Certain hulls had sufficient numbers, strength and expandability to receive XP tech including improved heavy weapons:

New construction war hulls built to higher standards
Non-leader hulls where the leader variant gained additional heavy weapons
Ships without an X1 upgrade path

X1: It was usually more cost effective to build X1 ships from new construction but some ships that had received heavy combat damage could find themselves returning as X1 ships

Module X1
New X1R type ships to fill in any existing gaps

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 09:49 am: Edit

Not to dispute SVC, but there are already examples of old ships that have X upgrades. The KEX is the most obvious. If you can fit an old Rom with complete X1 tech, I don't see why you couldn't give limited X-tech to newer ships. I could see not giving it to war classes, because they aren't really "built to last". But partial X-ships seem perfectly reasonable. I do understand from a game play perspective why that might not happen, as it would turn everything into X-ships. But it should be possible to do.