It seems generally accepted that X2 ships should gain some sort of maneuvering advantage over other eras ships. There has been many proposals but they are spead all over the place.

This thread is for proposing maneuvers such as:

X2 ships should have a better Turn Mode for their class.

or

High Energy Burst (HEB)

Etc.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit

I had been asked about reinstating a proposal from the past inwhich a ship could spend power to buy hexes towards its turn mode. I haven't yet found that proposal but I might have though of one better.

What if ships could go into High Maneuvering Mode during EA. This would improve their Turn Mode by one level for that turn. At the end of the turn the ship would roll for breakdown. The Breakdown bonus's being used first. You could HET during the turn but would have to consider using two BD Bonuses in one turn.
A reinforced ASIF would give a ship a -1 to the roll but would not be a Bonus. I.e. the breakdown rating would continue to decline after the bonuses were used up.

A ship with two bonus's and a BDR of 5-6 could use three turns of HMM before risking the ship.

(Note: The ASIF rule I propose above would also apply to HET use. Remember that each time a ship rolls for BD the rating is reduced by one. A 5-6 becomes a 4-6, then 3-6 etc. The ASIF-R subtracts one from from the die roll but does not stop the decline they way a real BD Bonus does. For ships with a good BD rating this might be affectivly an extra bonus but for others it is not.)

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Interesting. Very interesting. No power cost for HM Mode, Loren? I like the ASIF tie-ins; I think that system offers a lot of potential. You inspired a new version of my HEB.

(XC.HEB.0) The "new" HEB buys extra hexes for: (1) moving on non-movement impulses and/or (2) buying pseudo-hexes to tighten turns. Under HEB the ship goes into a higher manuever rate "bubble" during the turn (similar to Loren's HMM).

(XC.HEB.1) A Captain pays warp movement power (and only warp movement power) equal to EM plus the desired HEB hexes at the unit's regular move cost. The HEB bubble must be allocated (the Captain must announce it) and lasts the entire turn. The HEB hexes can be allocated or emergency warp movement power can be spent on the impulse of use. ASIF must be active during the turn or the bubble isn't generated (thanks Loren).

(XC.HEB.2) HEB-for-move (1) allows the X2-ship to move one hex on impulses where the X2-ship isn't scheduled to move according to the Impulse Chart. It's limited to once every 3 impulses and not before Impulse #3. Break down is handled the same way as Loren's post above (10:58 am). HEB-movement counts as a Tactical maneuver and not a speed change. The extra hexes count toward Maneuver Rate and Effective Speed, but not Practical Speed. HEB-movement and HET can't be performed during the same impulse. A maximum of one HEB-movement hex may be allocated using one point of Impulse Power. This is in addition to the standard hex of normal movement using Impulse Power. The total number of hexes of movement under normal movement, speed changes, and HEB can not exceed 32.

(XC.HEB.3) HEB-for-turn (2) buys "pseudo-hexes" for satisfying turn modes. Each hex of actual movement (not including terrain-induced) toward satisfying turn mode can be matched by buying a psuedo-hex. The Captain must declare each impulse where a pseudo-hex is "bought." HET can not be performed within 3 impulses of an impulse where a pseudo-hex is bought (and yes the benefits of bought hexes are lost after a HET) and vice versa. There is no roll for break down but a BD bonus is spent at the end of the turn. Bought pseudo-hexes count toward Maneuver Rate and Pseudo Speed, but not Effective Speed nor Practical Speed. Pseudo-hexes can be bought using allocated Impulse Power at a cost of one pseudo-hex per point of impulse power.

(XC.HEB.4) The HEB bubble could be lost after Energy Balance Due to Damage under (D22.11).

Combine HEB with HMM and you've got some "agile, hostile; mobile" X2 ships. HMM offers KISS and HEB offers flexibility, and as far as I'm concerned are not mutually exclusive. I'd recommend that X2-ships have three BD bonuses.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Oooops yes, there would be a power cost, similar to the power cost of an HET.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Loren:
Rule (C6.5) does not mention a reduction for previous breakdown rolls, but only for previous breakdowns (Check rule (C6.544)), and so in your example, the ship with ASIF and a breakdown rating of 5-6 would never fail a breakdown roll while the ASIF was active.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Thanks, I'll have to review. I was going from memory. Sorry for the error.

I'll revise.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I kinda like the Micro Het for manouvering better than the High Energy Manouvering...but I'm not so sure, it'ld be all that handy.
A going to AA will have a greater advantage than D going to C so you'll find only a few ships making the jump ( and taking the risk ).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

Well, in any case I'm/we are just tossing out ideas.

I'm pretty partial to just improving Turns Modes for class, such as the Fed XCC being TM C and the Klingon XBC at TM B (this is an improvement because the XBC is based off of the C7 which is TM C.)

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 02:34 am: Edit

Consider that as we increase the number of boxes on a given move cost, the turn mode *should* get worse -- it is a function of the bulk that must be moved by the warp engines, and it will take more time to counter the inertia to allow for a turn. This is what a turn mode represents. The nimble ships, and the best turn mode ships tend to have the fewest boxes for their move costs.

If we keep the turn modes for a given race's cruiser constant, yet increase the number of boxes, we are in essence improving the turn mode.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 04:19 am: Edit

How about if we allow the turn mode to get worse but then add a system that allows a 'mini-HET' of one hexside per turn without breakdown, to counteract this.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:10 am: Edit

On further review I have found the HM Mode rules not workable. Perhaps some version might but to have a ship enter into High Maneuvering Mode, then due to tactical circomstances, not turn at all would not warrent a break down at all. What amount of turns would? To make it work fails KISS big. One could simply charge power for the mode and leave it at that. Keep actual Turn Modes the same and allow X2 ships the ability to overdrive the RCS (so to speak). So, add two movement points of warp and two Impulse points and you gain one level of Turn Mode for the turn. This is announced at the beginning of the turn and can be used like a mid-turn speed change. Can continue for the remainder of the turn. Use of EM places the ship in an alternative mode and negates the High Maneuvering Mode for the remainder of the turn, durning and following EM.

I did think of a, sort of, lesser breakdown called Disrupted Opperations. No turning and no fire control for Four Impulses. This could be the penalty for failing various maneuvers.

==================

Still standing are these proposals from past conversations.

1) Generally Improved Turm Modes.

2) Impulse Power Turn (IPT): 2 Impulse Energy gains on 60° turn used like an HET. IF ASIF in one then no BD Roll. Can be used as many times as power available but not with in 8 impulses.

3) Vectored Warp Maneuvering (VWM): Allows travel at 60° off axis (example A: Ship facing A but traveling in direction B). Can side slip only towards facing and turn only towards vector (Example A1: SS to A but not C and can only turn facing from A to B). The act of turning cancels VWM. A ship can turn off VWM at any time. The ship then continues forward in its facing direction; this is considered a turn. A ship can turn on VWM only when it's turn mode is satisfied. The act of Turning On VWM is considered a Turn.
VWM is a function of X2 warp and cannot be performed by Impulse Power. There is no extra power cost. VWM can be performed when ever turn Mode is satisfied. VWM must be announced.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:14 am: Edit

BTW: These are three (or four) separate ideas. I'm not suggesting they should (but could) go together.

For instance, I wouldn't have generally improved Turn Modes if there was to be a form of HMM. Further, if there was to be HMM, it's use would preclude the use of the other maneuvers.

By John Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Neat idea. To keep it simple, just make the HMM improve the turn mode of X Ships by one for the cost of EM (in warp).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Let's, for the moment, figure that all three maneuvers are part of X2 with IPTs being a part of the XP refit (also applied to X1 ships).

An X2 ship might use Vectored Warp Maneuvering on the approach to the enemy and drop out about ten to twelve hexes away. Then utilize IPT to jockey position for an alpha strike. One the following turn it would then use HMM for the get away and to position for the next attack run.

Is this going to make X2 too powerful? Even if the XP refits allows for IPT's?

Or will it just add to the fun since these maneuvers have some restrictions that a thoughtful enemy could exploit. For example, vectoring does reveil generally where you'll be going for at least a while. IPTs should have to be announced the impulse prior. HMM is the only one with a near pure advantage but uses power. Four or Six power can be determined later.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 06:11 pm: Edit

If the HEB were a fact, then that might be used any where, any time. The combo of all four would certainly have a very high BPV cost and likely be imbalancing anyway. Who would want to fight such a ship?

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

My ship propsals have a one-category improvement in the turn mode for two-engine ships, and no improvement for three-engines.

It's simple, and just to be different.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:21 pm: Edit

If you guys want a proposal for Powered Turns, here's this:

A ship may spend reserve warp equal to one (and only one) hex-worth of movement per impulse to add an additional hex of movement toward its next turn. The expenditure of this power must be announced.

There was some discussion about whether it should be any impulse or just those the ship didn't move in.

I would prefer something that has a cost attached to it that just improving turn modes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:55 pm: Edit

I apologise in advanced for this.

John, so what you're saying is that X2 ships should all have a Powered Maneuvering System? Somehow, I don't think it will go over well if we give X2 ships...PMS. The Girls wont even like that!

Ducks and runs!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Jessica?

You lurking here? I'll give you first shot at Loren if you want it.

Were this a B5 Wars board, We'd have the Narn Bat Squad for such an occasion.

Oh, hey, that's right.

We have the agonizer booth.

Oh Looooreeeennnn...

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:37 pm: Edit

John, Defending Loren a bit. All he did was abreviate the system under discussion.

I wrote a rule recently for a weapon with a GREAT name. Descriptive and what have you. It wasn't until I abbreviated it that I got something that really shouldn't be used. PC-P anyone?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Call it "Powered Turns" or Powered Turn System (PTS).

No problem.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:54 pm: Edit

In Johns defense, I sort of made up the name to fit the abbreviation I wanted to make the joke.

PTS, of course, no problem.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Loren,

You are sentenced to three days in the booth with Rosanne Barr during her PMS cycle.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

I don't know what time that would be but either would be scary! PMS or Powered Maneuvering System! (which is supposably when she's in her good mood!)

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 02:43 am: Edit

The Horror!