MJC, I'm thinking along those lines:

FA - AEGIS Frigate (AEGIS and speed and heavy on phasers)
FB - Battle Frigate (aux power and heavies)
FF - Fast Frigate (speed and phaser/drone mix)
FM - Mine Warfare Frigate
FS - Scout/EW Frigate (SCs and heavy on aux power and drones)
FT - Priority Transport Frigate (cargo and speed)

The FA and FB would have a Flag Bridge for C2 duty.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 01:49 am: Edit

On a side note, has there been any discussion about X2-AEGIS (call it AEGIS II if there's no other name for it), if so where?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 09:28 am: Edit

"FFX's died fast."
In the GW/ISC/Andro war that was true. The trade wars are shaping up to be an age of first blood duels. As you are competing for an immediate economic advantage it usually doesn't make sense to have your crippled ship towed home.

Aegis is discussed in one of the other threads, but I have to look for it each time I want to post something on it.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Isn't the "Trade wars" a concept from the old X2
supplement? It might be as dead as the supplement itself. Besides weapons usually are built before it's known how they finally were put to use, right?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Check the time line. The Trade Wars are still official. SVC has stated though that what exactly they will be is not known yet. i.e. what they were in Supp.2 may not be the same in the future.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Question, is there anything "canon" released so far about the Xorks? If so where and what's the gist?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 09:14 pm: Edit

SVC teased us with a top view of a Xork ship. It is modular. Their space covers six sectors on the opposite side of the Galaxy. It is rumored that they are "Bad Ass".

There really isn't anything else. The pic that SVC posted is somewhere in the X-Files archives.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:06 am: Edit

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/23/3016.html?WednesdayJanuary2920030737pm

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:26 am: Edit

SVC:

A Bone of contention has come up reguarding the X2 ships and the projected history for them.


One theory is that after fighting the General Warl and the ISC and the Andro Invasion the galactic powers had exhausted their ecconomies and so settled on a treaty ( rather like the trway of Washington in the early 1920s ).

In essense this treaty limited new ship production to only a handful of cruisers and a limited number of other ships and those cruisers could have either MY era phaser suites ( and matching heavy weapons ) with the new X2 phasers and heavies OR remain with the X1 Phasers suites using the good old Ph-1 ( possibly with some slight modifications ) and heavy weapons.


This limitation then became a major factor on the TRADE WARS period ( partly because the Prirates weren't a party to the treaty ).

Eventually the trade wars became too "hot" and some races left the treaty...and once they did the treaty died.


This then gives X2 ships an interesting design.
They have refits planned for them as part of their original design but were held back from being employed because of the traty restriction, and then were employed as the treaty feel apart.

A lot of people like this idea ( Well me and Tos that I'm sure of ) because it gives the X2s a flavour that X1s didn't have, that is refits.


Here's the question.
Is such a treaty and the design ramifications that follow on from it something that you would want to pick up as part of your SFU history or should we look at X2 ships as being static designs over the entire period of Y205-225...or would you rather not comment until any playtesting we do causes the idea to fall over or stand...or would you prefere X2 ships in their latter period be left as a blank sheetso that you can develop the refits that would make them fight in a manner specifically designed to repulse the Xorks after the powers and abilities of the Xorks have been determined?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

My basic idea for the X2 period's geography is similar (I'm told by others) to the old Supplement 2 in that the pre-GW borders are more or less in tact (supported by "A Brief History of the General War") but that the Galactic Powers signed a treaty that expands the neutral zones. Where my concept differs is that the expanded NZs have "international space" routes running in between them.

Think of the new NZs as being like the 12 nautical mile territorial water zone each nation on Earth enjoys and the "international space" (which I call Open Space) routes as being a sort of superhighway system. To visualize this use a F&E map, take the existing NZ hexes and call them Open Space Routes. Then redesignate the adjacent hexes as Neutral Zones.

Each empire can patrol its own NZ in a law enforcement-/interior security-type fashion (i.e. National Guard). Each nation can use OSRs to move about the Galaxy freely (trade, exploration, etc.) without being considered a direct threat to its neighbors. Of course warships will have access to OSRs in order to protect their trade convoys, keep each others' fleets in check, and otherwise protect their national interests. OSRs also give "landlocked" spinward empires access to the coreward areas.

I've mentioned this concept in the past but I wasn't able to find my old posts.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Summarized and moved from the X1R topic. Discussing likely political/economic conditions of Y203 post Andromedan War Empires.

Neutral Zones: Excerpts from (R13.1A) and (R10.1B)
In Y185 the Alliance had pushed back the Coalition to approximately the original Y165 borders. In Y186 the ISC invaded and declared peace in our time and created neutral zones three or more times the size of the Y168 border. The formal pacification splintered in Y188 as the Andromedans descended upon the galaxy rapidly destroying 2/3 of the ISC fleet.

The Andromedan war raged from Y188-Y202 and reached the height of their power in Y197. During the war most empire could muster the forces to defend only about a dozen F&E hexes surrounding the capital (to put that in perspective the Klingons controlled 135 hexes in Y165), a staggering mere 10% of their original size. By the end of the Andromedan war the neutral zones were about 8 hexes wide. The Empires as we know them are gone. 90% of their original territory is gone (read 90% of Alpha space is under local independent control) and an immediate war to reconstitute their former borders is unthinkable, even to the Klingons.

Planets liberated by the ISC in Y186 enjoyed 16 years of independence. Planets captured under the initial coalition push remained cut off from their original Empire for well over 30 years. A generation of devastation and occupation followed by independence did not leave many colonies inclined to reintegrate into the Empires that spawned and once ruled them. Klingons and Humans are tiny minorities in their respective Empires so reintegration due to racial preference would be uncommon.

Scenario 1:

A Federation border world joined the Federation for protection, paid taxes and when war came they were forsaken for over 30 years. 30 YEARS without one Federation ship sent to their aid. The Federation is broken. The core worlds remain loyal but Orion and the rest aren’t coming back. That same border planet we discussed knows that in the next war it can expect the same treatment: a Federation retreat followed by years of enemy occupation. No thanks. It’s safer to remain neutral or allied only within their F&E province.

A Klingon border world abandoned in Y186 has only been separated from the Empire for 19 years, but certainly long enough to prefer self-rule to an Empire appointed colonial dictator. The racial minority Klingons contend with rebellious planets on a daily basis so independence is an easy seed to plant.

The Kzinti are feudal and would revert to feudalism. After the war of Return I don’t see a strong enough central government to even pretend to rein in the minor nobility. Ditto for the Lyrans who will resort to feudalism by clan and lament the forever lost LDR.

The Hydran merchant guilds salivate over the riches of free trade and rapidly adapt to the new galactic order.

The Romulans have a Great House structure. Their Republic will fall and each of the Great Houses will make a power grab like that attempted in the Romulan Civil War, but without a central government to rein them in.

The Gorns never really got serious about colonizing outside of their home systems so the loss of territory was probably not noticed.

The ISC would suffer a fate similar to the Federation but would fall further into despair as their religion of pacification became an unbearable nightmare.

Scenario 1 represents the collapse of central government creating feudal states about the size of an F&E province. The war weary core worlds are little more than the strongest of these feudal states, but with control of the shipyards and military technology.

Scenario 2:

In Y204 the treaty of Washington was signed by all major races and the League of Newly Independent Worlds (NIW). As a political entity the NIW held considerable power in this period. The Andromedans conquered the neutral zones but after destroying the fleet elements and fixed defenses they left most worlds intact and under local control. The NIW enjoyed their long independence and most were not about to submit to reunification, though many chose reintegration for racial or economic reasons (read: we can establish the border anywhere we want).

To gain collective independence the NIW agreed to a mutual defense treaty. While no independent world or province is a match for the strength of even the most devastated Empire, no Empire was willing to be formally at war with the NIW. The depleted Empires discovered that they didn’t always need to directly rule a colony to benefit from its existence through free trade and gunship diplomacy.

The NIW were never an offensive military threat to any of the Empires, they wielded the far more devastating power of the trade sanction. Any Empire that had its trading rights revoked with the NIW (who traded heavily with each other and the Empires former enemies) would be at a severe disadvantage during the long decades of reconstruction. The weakened Empires were economically forced, and often relieved, into accepting the independence of the NIW and the fleet limitations imposed by the treaty. As dictated by the treaty surplus warships were sold off to NIW member worlds and trade cartels as a means of raising cash and currying favorable trade relations.

Scenario 2 works with basically the same history but the newly independent provinces band together to prevent reintegration by force.

Both scenarios or a merged and improved version fit the established history and create the political climate ripe for the trade wars without locking us into the same old historical duels. This system has flexibility to give a gamer or campaigner the background necessary to make practically any multi-racial multi-generational scenario viable historically.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

I like Scenario 2 better, myself. Opens the door for a reason to trade; the first one really doesn't allow for it as much. Nice post.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 08:14 am: Edit

From the X1R thread...

---

Quote:

No, I'm saying that the individual worlds would have an exceedingly hard time allining and wielding the power of sanction over the Empires. Hawaii, Poro Rico, and the Virgen Islands trying to gang up and sanction the U.S. or Russia or Japan. They aren't anywhere near the same class of power.

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit

The Organians could be the key.

They bug me a bit as a magic wand but they are ST:TOS so I can accept them. I'm not sure how willing they would be to enforce anything but that's only a matter of what the pen writes, I guess.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

I dislike Organian option too for the same reasons, but it remains a viable option.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Me too. Don't like 'em, but they're an established part of the universe and the timeline already refers to them. Sounds almost like a bad Scooby-Doo episode..."I'd have had that planet, if it hadn't been for those meddling organians..."

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit

"No, I'm saying that the individual worlds would have an exceedingly hard time allining and wielding the power of sanction over the Empires. Hawaii, Poro Rico, and the Virgen Islands trying to gang up and sanction the U.S. or Russia or Japan. They aren't anywhere near the same class of power."

I see it more like North America refusing trade with California. Asia sanctioning China. Europe not trading with England.

England could make a pretty good go at militarily knocking over every European state one at a time to force trade/taxes but is that the best way to go about it?

Even an intact Megapower such as the US would have tremendous difficulty against a united Arab/Muslim alliance.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I hate the organian almost as much as I hate the orions, if for other reasons.
IMO it's a bad idea to transfer the bad works of screen (er,TV) writers to SFU.
While it's OK to have a Deux ex machina trick
for script(?)writers with hangovers it's not up
to the higher standards of ADB.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Actually, Carl, the whole Organian-enforced "Era of Peace" is already referenced in SFB material...we're just wondering how it figures in with X2.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Mike, granted that the "Era of Tranquility" is established SFB material, only in Supp. 2is there reference to enforcement. The established official rules is so far open for developement. The Organians may only be declearing that no new major threats are comming and that the Andromedans are indeed defeated. Or they could be declearing and enforced peace.

Tos's NIW might happen if the Organians supply a reason the Empires cannot/will not hold the threat of distruction over the heads of the NIW. The Feds, of course, will likely be the most succesful in convincing the NIW individual worlds to reintegrate as they built the Federation by peaceful means as opposed to conquering their Empire.

Some individuals might believe the Feds abandoned them but any smart leader knows they didn't. And when the Feds could return, they did. No one can blame the Feds for not seeing the ISC comming. No one did and everyone was subdued. Then the horror of the Andros came and they were even stronger than the ISC! The Fact that any of the races survived sheds more honor than shame. Pushing back the Klingons to near the original borders then facing the insurmountable odds of two fresh attacks from the ISC then the Andros was nothing short of spectacular.

The greeting message from Feds ships appraoching old colonies might well be "This is the Federation Starship (pick a name). We are back. Very sorry it took so long but we were delayed by two new powerful enemies; the Interstellar Concordium and the Andromedans. Please send coordinents and personell to receive the Federation Ambasitor."

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Mike, I am not sure that "Era of Tranquility" comes from the Organians (Away from and can't check the books). But anyway I strongly oppose any Organians in X2. What has been refered to in SFU is enough IMO.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 04:12 pm: Edit

It does come from them...this is already part of the history. Now, how much they enforce it (if at all) is a different story. That isn't really defined, as Loren says. It'll be up to Steve to decide that, I guess.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 05:28 pm: Edit

But I don't want to be a spoil sport. "What if..." is what this is all about. All I saying is that some things posted imply "It has to be" when it doesn't. It can be if that's what's best; what's appealing to the majority.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:58 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Some individuals might believe the Feds abandoned them but any smart leader knows they didn't. And when the Feds could return, they did. No one can blame the Feds for not seeing the ISC comming. No one did and everyone was subdued. Then the horror of the Andros came and they were even stronger than the ISC! The Fact that any of the races survived sheds more honor than shame. Pushing back the Klingons to near the original borders then facing the insurmountable odds of two fresh attacks from the ISC then the Andros was nothing short of spectacular.

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

I would find that arguement more palletable with the other races but not with the UFP and the Gorns. Planets don't lose sovernty with those Governments. They get support and a say in matters.

That said, some planets will be lead by those who do not have the planets best interest in the fore front of things. These might include systems that have managed to expand beyond their one star system and perhaps have managed control of an entire province. These Systems will hold onto thier space as much as possible.

Supp. 2 wrote that many Pirates went legit and this might hold true in Post Y205. Also, with X2 ship about, profitability in the pirating field would drop as X2 can use their Andro hunting abilities to hunt pirates too. Pirates gone legit in control of old colonies might well resist reintegration or influence matters towards resisting as best they can.