Consider also that some of the gov'ts (e.g. Klingons) might decide that in the post-General War/-Invasion period it's too expensive to let the local Orions run around freely, so they come up with a "final solution" and try to systematically stomp them out of existance. This could force those Orions to go "underground" and raid the gov't guerilla-style.

All the more reason to have a National Guard.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

From a conversation in the "Generic X2 Hull" thread:

If NCC-1701A is a CX according to (R2.201), and it's looking as if X1 can't convert to X2 (or am I wrong?) then there won't be an X2 USS ENTERPRISE? We all know what NCC-1701B is according to ST but will it be legal in SFB? If X1 can't convert to X2, would SVC sanction an exception allowing NCC-1701A to become X2? Do we even care if X2 has an NCC-1701?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

RBN: Lets take into account the movies for sake of this discussion, but for a moment.

In the movies, though it isn't readilly appearant, there is many years between the last few Original cast movies so the USS Enterprise NCC-1701A is in service beyond the scope of this game (which states that the Airforce records end at Y225). So, NCC-1701B may not be launched until after Y226. Neatly avoiding contradiction even though SFB is really going to diverge from Movie Trek at this point.

Of course, I'm not the authority on any of this but it works for me.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Indeed. 1701-A may be in service from say 185 (just a guess) and may serve for 30-40 years, making it go to about 225. So, there might not be a 1701-B in SFB. On the other hand, 1701-A might reach a noble demise earlier on and there might in fact be a X2 1701-B.

Just no way to tell, especially since SFB does not really follow the movies, rather just TOS.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Not only doesn't SFB follow the movies, SFB does not have the legal right to follow the movies.

For the sake of argument though, the 1701B was new construction, not a conversion.

My first thought is against X1->X2 coversions.

X1 ships are already super-advanced ships. You don't want to rip one apart unless it's hopelessly out of date. I think we'd be more likley to see standard hulls converted to X2.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

But what is a standard hull in the post GW era?

A regular CA or FF won't be built as you can get a CX or FX, and if you don't build the FX, then a regular FF is going to be too small to deal with anything, even convoy duty. A DDX is a new build anyway you slice it.

Now, NCA,NCL,DW hull types will still be built probably, though is small numbers. These ships are not able to even get X1 conversions, so there is no way they can get X2 conversions.

i really think X2 will be all new construction.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit

I tend to agree.

Clarification "Standard" meaning "standard technology".

What I have been told by people who play F&E is that an economy has a certain amount of points to spens, some subset of which are X-points usable for X-tech.

Until all econ points are X-points, seems to me some standard technology hulls will be built.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 05:33 pm: Edit

The F&E "some X-tech" rules run through Y185. After that, there is a sliding scale through Y205 by which "standard" points turn into "XTPs" with no standard points produced in Y205.

WARNING: I haven't read 1% of the X2 topics so assuming that an occassional post from me means I have read, approved, or endorsed anything here would be wrong.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Ok, we can gather then that in Y205, your "standard technology" ship will be our X1 friends.

So, in Y205 you start to build the next gen of warships, or X2.

So, there will be a 20 year period where X1 slowly becomes more of the fleet, and the older GW stuff falls away. The base line for XTPs (X tech points) starts off as 20% of the total income generated by the empire plus 40% of what planets would produce at their max(unexhausted) capacity. If we have a sliding scale from that, then over the next 20 years after 185 XTPs go up by 4% a year from mthe total income, and down 2% from the extra generated by the planets. (Reasoning being they are gearing towards XTPs and away from old EPs so at the end you are entirely on XTPs.)

So, it would go Y186=24/38,28/36,32/34,36/32,40/30,44/28,48/26,52/24,56/22,60/20,64/18,68/16,72/14,76/12,80/10,84/8,88/6,92/4,96/2,100% XTPs=Y205.

Assuming that much of the base EP money will be spent on rebuilding the empire's base and economic system, I would think that X-ships would be the primary builds for several years, with things like SCSs and CVAs taking the priority for non-X hulls.

By the time you get to 205, you have a good size X1 fleet and your carrier/PF groups. Most of the GW warships will be long gone by this time, as any that survived the GW would be lost to the ISC or Andromedans.

Thoughts?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

As far as GW-tech capital ships, I think it's a percentage thing.

For argument's sake we can take a snapshot of the empires' fleets when the ISC start their pacification program. Let's assume they lose 60% of those forces fighting the ISC, and the Andro War claims another 80% of what's left (note, these percentages are entirely arbitrary on my part). That still leaves 8% of that starting forces plus new builds until Y205.

Some GW ships will survive.
As X-tech is mainstreamed, GW tech ships would probably get mothballed, sold (RE Starfleet Warlord or national guard) or converted to X1 or X2.

What makes sense to me from there is the empires being quite happy thankyouverymuch with their X1 superships for some unspecified period of time and X2 filtering into the mainstream in Y211 - 215 as technology researched through the general war, ISC war and Andro war becomes practical.

The only question in my mind is whether some empires decide to follow the path of continuing X1 instead of the X2 path we have laid out here. We're kinda starting a new evolutionary path here. These would be the people who would choose XBCH's and perhaps even X-ATUs over X2.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit

But a BCHX is impossible, so they would have to go X2 at least in some form to get a hull that big and capable of using the X systems.

As for percenteges, I tend to disagree. FF to NCL die like flies while it is still much more unlikely for a DN to die, and almost unheard of to lose a CVA or SCS.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 10:22 pm: Edit

GW BCH's might qualify for a XP type upgrade but never to full X-Tech. I think all X2 should be new build.

Come the end of the general war and then the ISC and Andro invasions there would be few non-War hulls I would think or rather the highest percentage on hulls would be war hulls. These might get an up grade to XP or in some cases to full X (like the D5). But a regular EP's get converted naturally to XTP's the fleets would be more rounded out by X-Ships. I don't see X1 ships being compatable with X2. Much of what we've discussed with X2 is core changes and not additions.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit

War crusiers cannot be converted to X-tech. BCHs cannot be converted to X-tech.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:06 am: Edit

Cfant: I know but the concept of these units getting partial upgrades was always part of the XP proposal and have been stated as under consideration by SVC. No yea or nea on that as yet.

But I agree, these hulls should not be allowed a full X upgrade.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 02:07 am: Edit

Quote: "Ok, we can gather then that in Y205, your "standard technology" ship will be our X1
friends. So, in Y205 you start to build the next gen of warships, or X2. "

EXCUSE ME, but the second sentence does not follow from the first. There COULD be decades of all X1 before the first X2, or the first X2 COULD come before the last X0 is finished. The data I gave defines an end to X0 but does not define the start of X2.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 02:25 am: Edit

I thought that you had said that standard technology ships would continue to be built for for a long time after Y205. I cannot imediatly find the reference but I think it's in the earliest X-Files.

In any case, I suppose the stone has not been carved yet and only that Y205 has been written as the beginning of the X2 era but that that statement doesn't define anything about the other technologies (XO and X1).

Hmmm, OK just reread that above. I'm sorry but I don't recall any data defining the actual end of X0. What am I missing?

Honestly trying to understand.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:55 am: Edit

Ok, sorry. Didn't meant to tread on anything there. My logic process was simply taking to much for granted.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit

Non-X ships are cheaper than X ships, and someone might build a non-X ship a century after X-ships were invented if it seemed like a logical idea at the time.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:25 pm: Edit

...arguably why the planetary national guards made do with late-EY stuff.

Suggests that these guard units would probably absorb a lot of GW-tech units from the large-powers as they (the large powers) convert to X-tech. If the ship always orbiting the same world or shuttling between a handful of worlds, the disadvantages of having a war-production hull ought to evaporate.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Makes sense, though I don't imagin there would be any NG-CVA's or NG-CVS's. Those ships would likely be XP-recipiants though possably the most expensive refits.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Agreed. Perhaps a Federation core world could afford to support a CVA group -- Earth, Vulcan, Andor or Tellar, maybe Deneb or Rigel, but that's it.

Probably not even then, but those would be the only candidates, assuming that the Federation would ever sell a CVA and they might not for a couple of different reasons, security among them.

As you suggest, the Fed would more likely want to keep CVAs in service, with whatever upgrades to standard tech that can be drawn from X-tech.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

CVA's might be delegated to system defence while the rebuilding campain is active. There, their disadvantages against X1 and X2 would be minimised. It the F-14D can become the F-14DMX (given a mega-pack and able to handle X-Drones), this would be a pretty tough nut to crack!

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Guys, carriers really won't go out of style. As the exhastive re-work of X1 revealed, X-tech does NOT make attitrition units obsolete as once thought, just not as good as they used to be.

Especially the Feds, CVAs,SCS, CVBs, will all still be serving as line ships I would think. At least until a good X-carrier is designed.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Also, a ship like the DVL and DML will be able to serve with X-ships as carriers, since they can maintain the same strategic speed.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

X-tech doesn't do diddly to attrition units, particularly megafighters. A pack of F-14M's is just baaaad to deal with. The equivalent BPV of fighters against an X-ship is just brutal.