I was thinking-- at the end of the General war, there are a LOT of unhappy people out there. Not just klingon subjects, think about all the Fed colony worlds that were told "Whoops-- have to go defend the core-- have a nice day, and remember, don't let the klingons walk over you without a fight!".
In addition, after the peace, a good chunk of the various fleets would be in refit, (or being rebuilt) which woudl minimize the amount of forces that could be spared for civil patrols.
What about a small (E?) module for these civil conflicts-- lots of small planets with militia forces maybe police forces that were more loyal to the colonists, vs, whatever the central government could spare-- with the cavat that most central governments were sufficiently depleted that they could not afford to smash the infrastructure, even if they had the power to do so.
You'd get a lot of field expedient ships (armed skiffs, modified freighters, maybe even "cruisers" put together from what they had in the freight yards, etc, ) matched against equally wonky central forces-- perhaps several police ships, a couple of armed freighters, with a single AUXCV as the "flagship"
Anyone interested?

By Jeff Williams (Jeff) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 04:53 am: Edit

Well, the problem with that is that after the General War is the ISC conquest. While StarFleet may not have had the resources to keep colonies in line, the ISC most certainly did. The only thing that forced the ISC to abandon the outer colonies was the arrival of Andromedan forces. And while the colony worlds may not be thrilled by their treatment(or lack thereof) during the GW, I don't see any of them being able to stand up to Andro raids without the backing of StarFleet.

Possibly there might be some brief flare-ups here and there by some rebellious types. This might work better as a mini-campaign.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 05:02 am: Edit

The problem I see, is that while the various races are exhausted and their fleets are depleted, they're depleted relative to their GW peak. Even a CW + DW is more than enough to overwhelm any forces a rebel planet might have. And that would be an easy force to send around on a tour of planets (backed up by a modest fleet, say CC + CWV/PFT + CW + 3xDW + DWS covering the sector). A planet might last a few months before the fleet got around to coming by, but when it does...

Note that the Vuldar only managed to free themselves because they had a very powerful defensive ability.

Don't forget that any planet that declares itself independent is going to be looked upon as prey by pirates (who AREN'T exhausted) and/or the Andro raiders...

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 08:58 am: Edit

Also, the Vudar are pretty out of the way and they split their rebellion between 2 enemies (Hydrans & Klingons). Neither side could really afford to deal with the Vudar, as the ships were needed against the other major power.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 05:01 am: Edit

As I stated on the Bargantine board, there was a valid, reasonable POLITICAL reason why one othese little guys could become and, perhaps, maintain their independence.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 05:27 am: Edit

Is this what you're referring to?

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Even historically minor nations have been able to have some impact on large wars. You only have to give a valid reason as to why they haven't been conquered by their larger neighbors. They could be allied to another power, the local big shot(s) could have a good reason to let them stay independent, a basically peaceful nation could allow a minor state to exist wholely within its borders (say 1-2 hexes, not more than a single province) if it had a good reason, or any number of other possiblities. SIDENOTE: I don't see this happening along the Hydran border from the time of the Klingon-Lyran conquest to after the end of the General War.

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By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Who said anything about being nice? I said that there had to be a reason for the local big shot(s) to allow the little guy to stay independent. A couple of possible reasons are:
1-Along a border region, if you attempted to take control, then they could call in the other local big guy;
2-Away from the border you could find a situation where it just isn't worth the expense needed to take over.
3-By not making the little guy an enemy you may wind up with slightly more freindly forces in the local area. It might not be much, but every little bit helps.
4-You could be in a situation where you gain more by not conqueroring them than by conquering them. A willing ally is always more beneficial than a defeated enemy.
I DO see most of these "little guys" having to chose sides during them GW (or having it chosen for them). I DON'T see them as being larger than a single province (at the most). I can see some of these nations having a VERY small military.

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Naysayers; attention please.

Applying logic to living creatures' behavior is a dicey proposition. Stating that no one in their right mind would oppose an orbiting starship does not preclude that somebody, or lots of somebodies, would do just this.

The likeliness of succes or failiure of a revolt is independent of the urge to rebel. Say Klingon Colony X throws off the shackles by defeating the local garrison, and tossing the local governor in prison. The fact that an E4 is two weeks away, and in route, wouldn't make a whole lot of difference for the passionate.

And quite frankly you all don't know what forces the rebels have at their command. Saying it won't work and therefore it won't happen is not a logical argument, because even success (and failure) have degrees of severity.

Contractor; "I want something that'll allow me to fly."
Scientist; "The laws of nature say it must not be so, and besides you obviously do not have wings."
Engineer; "Let me get back to you in a few days....."

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, March 16, 2002 - 04:14 pm: Edit

I hate to admit this, but I agree with George.
Human nature alone (this is all I have to base on, sorry), often would confront insurmountable odds for a cause. And sometimes win.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:22 am: Edit

There is a lot of empty space available for micro-empires:
Post GW Romulan territory (indigenous races supported by the Tholians)
A Gorn Civil War between the races (The Feds back the wrong side for some political reason making matters worse)
Lyran Far Stars
Anyone's off-map area
ISC races could show some fragmentation after the Andros invade
Who took over LDR space after the Andros left?
The old-kings return.

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Tos, don't forget, on the F&E map, that NorthEast corner of empty space between the Gorns and the ISC.

By John de Michele (Johnd) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Back in the days of the Commander's Edition, the 2X era had widened Neutral Zones. I'm working on a homebrew campaign which I am tentatively titling 'Minor Wars', in which the players will buy older non-X ships (mostly SC4), and be able to expand their minor empires. All of this will take place in a single F&E hex.

John.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 12:19 am: Edit

I didn't say that at rebellion could not happen, I just said that an mini-nation is very unlikely to be established (the possible ones are already taken). Sure a Klingon slave colony could revolt. It will last at best 6 months before the Klingons crush it (if any revolt suceeds then their empire is very threatened). Likewise the Kzinti and Lyrans. The Fed border regions have been devastated and I just don't see the core regions being allowed to fragment, especially after the problems the Orion Enclaved caused during the GW. The Roms would love for a micro-nation to develop for them to crush, nothing would uinfy them more than a real victory and conquest...

From the background, there are no indigenous races in Romulan territory. As near as I can tell, none ever existed (and any that might have seem to have been wiped out by the Romulans).

Sure the Gorns could break up (although I see them as heading the other direction), but that doesn't form a micro-empire. It forms two moderate sized empires. Likewise for a split of the ISC.

Why do you single out the Lyran Far Stars area?

The Lyrans took over LDR space (at least in the version of the history I've seen)--basically the survivors fled to the Lyran empire and on that basis, the Lyrans reclaimed the territory (it was theirs originally and the Klingons did not dispute the claim and the Hydrans aren't really in a position to do so).

By Captain Ebersole (George_Ebersole) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:18 am: Edit

No one knows the likliness of success or failiure, because we don't know what forces and/or equipment our would-be-rebels have at their disposal.

If the Klingons really wanted to they could crush say a Bargantine revolt by sending in a few heavies (surviving dreadnaughts were they allowed, BCs and so forth) and escorts. But is it worth it? What happens to other sectors of the empire that rely on those ships for security? Can they even scrounge up a force to oppose an insurrection?

This is the whole premise behind the concept.

And I don't think anyone's really suggesting a series of new "one-hex" minor racees with new ship designs and technology (if you're concerned over that), just a series of scenarios depecting the "quelling of the peasantry." Maybe a couple are actually succesful in their revolutions by the mere fact that their systems aren't worth a darn to the Klingon Empire? Maybe they're really tough cookies, and the Klingons, no matter how hard they try, just can't take a bite out of them?

Personally I can envisage an Orion revolt in Fed Space, and think it would make for an interesting Fed "Civil War", so to speak.

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 05:40 am: Edit

Brush wars:

Klingons sell some space to some civilans or something or other. They set themselves up as an independant nation, Feds etc.. do something similar. These "independant" states have themselves a minor little war with each other that is "tolerated" by their big brothers because ..
A) There are lots of individuals that still have animous against the other side and would like to see some die.
B) It's a good place to sell surplus arms to..
C) Hey they could win and grab a chunk of the other guys territory and in a generation or three they'll want to rejoin the Empire/Federation later no?

As the ISC retreat against the Andros and Andro raids begin on valuable realestate the boonies are kinda left to their own devises. The X ships et al are busy huntin Andro.

etc.. etc..

just because you CAN conquer something doesn't mean you're going to.... and just because you're smaller doesn't mean you can't give the big guy a bloody nose.. What would happen if the US tried to militarily take over Canada? Simple it's economy would collapse! Why, because too many Canadian companies are a major part of it. Now of course this means Canada's economy would collapse too. The US would have one HELL of a few generations of civil disobedience and outright sobotage in Canada and in the US states itself .... Why doesn't England take over Ireland? Politics and economics are not always in favor of military conquest. So once given a chance these new neutral zones could indeed become viable for lots of different reasons.

I'd rather see some just plain oddball very small fleets. Don't give them the best and brightest tech etc...

"Sure the Orions here and there abouts USED to be able to get their hands on advanced tech, but ever since the ISC and Andros hit em, most of their bases were destroyed. The economics of hitting freighter convoys under heavy military escort put them under."

The real militaries aren't as willing to sell speed 32's, MW swordfish etc.. any more, and X tech is beyond them.
To me this sounds like a real opportunity for some unique ships, say old "early years" ships refitted to Y170's weapon tech with odd tech sloshes, BAD designs, weapons combos that don't work well together..

With enough imagination you could make cookie cutterism a thing of the past.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:29 am: Edit

As soon as possible the Klingon Empire would dispatch a force to eliminate any rebellion before it got to far. What do you think the IWR does between major wars? Fly around in formation. The Empire rules with an Iron Fist. Any weakening in the grip will be noticed by the conquered. And there would be rebellions across the Empire. Just look at ancient Terran history the Soviet empire let it's grip weaken. And little rebellions spread like cancer. So any show of defiance would be put down with Maximum force. To teach those thinking Treason the error of thier ways. The Vudar were a special case of terrain and opprotunity. The EMPIRE was locked in a death struggle with the accursed Flatheads. And could'nt devote the forces nessecary to crush the traitorous Vudar when they rebelled.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:12 am: Edit

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As soon as possible the Klingon Empire would dispatch a force to eliminate any rebellion before it got to far.

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What do you think the IWR does between major wars? Fly around in formation?

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The Empire rules with an Iron Fist

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Just look at ancient Terran history the Soviet empire let it's grip weaken. And little rebellions spread like cancer. So any show of defiance would be put down with Maximum force.

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The Vudar were a special case of terrain and opprotunity

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By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 11:30 am: Edit

I find it VERY likely that a klingon subject race would revolt.

As likely as Kzinti nobles tearing apart the Patriarchy.
As likely as Lyran nobles tearing apart their Empire.
As likely as Hydran guilds splitting the Kingdom.
As likely as certain Federation worlds, dissatisfied that they were not sufficiently protected during the wars, leaving.
As likely as a house or few of Romulans going rogue.
I don't see the Gorns having problems. I remember reading somewhere there are not many native races in the Confederation.

By Jonathan Perry (Jonathan_Perry) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:25 pm: Edit

But the Feds wouldn't be able to stomp the dissaffected provinces into rubble (darn charter and all that). Besides, they already had a breakaway province.

The Kzintis already have a civil war.
The Romulans already have a civil war.
The Hydrans have had more than one palace coup.
The Lyrans already had battles over the LDR.

Time for the Klinks to get some of the fun.

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Ever hear of religion?
Ever hear of multi milionaires with nothing better do do with their money?

It doesn't have to be a revolt, rebellion or even a minor race.

Maybe gay pride finally gave up on earth and the Federation and they pool all their money and move everyone to a colony planet? Maybe they offer an obscene amount of money to the klingons and purchase a not hospitable, possibly on the cold side, barely habitable planet? I don't know use your imagination.

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Time for the Klinks to get some of the fun.

Like they didn't when the Tholians took Kliingon territory?
Like they didn't when the Vudar started annexing provinces?

Anybody could be hit by your suggestion. That's all I'm saying.

The biggest challenge would be the Gorns. But there is that open territory between them and the ISC.

By Mark Kuyper (Mark_K) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Lessss,
Too late. They already did. Its called San Francisco...

By L.LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Ok then the genetically engineered hermaphrodites left over from before the Eugenics war move out.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 01:46 am: Edit

An Idea moved from the Bargantine Discussion.

"The Rise and Fall of the _________ (Empire, Enclave, Republic, whatever)"

A campaign highlighting the major military actions in the history of this minor race. Could include scenarios where the break away race "obtain" their ships, liberate their planet, establish themselves as an independent race, and their ultimate defeat at the hands of somebody.

Early scenarios would give them the opportunity to assemble a fleet of ships through capture and purchase (with an obvious note as to what the historical fleet turned out to be). The fleet obtained would be used in the remainder of the campaign, with the amount of repairs allowed between each scenario varying dependant on the amount of time between events and the repair ability the race possesses at the time.

Along the lines of Andy's Palmer’s idea from the earlier Bargantine discussion, I could imagine several scenarios highlighting advanced BP/Ground combat on ships, bases, planets between the break away race and their former masters.

I'm interested in writing a campaign of 6-12 scenarios to reflect a short lived state along these lines. Not a new race with new tech or anything, just a single system that manages to become independent for a short time (3 years?).

Let's assume a border system under Klingon control during the late GW. A small National Guard contingent assigned. Perhaps a small fighter and/or freighter production facility. Maybe an orbiting station of some kind.

Local inhabitants are used extensively in the crewing of the ships and base. Klingon Garrison on the planet. The local elite (who have some cash) decide to join with a resistance movement.

Orion mercenaries are hired with the promise of a supply/support base in the system once independence gained. Locals arrange for the simultaneous sabotage of security stations and on the orbiting base and ships. Close quarters combat ensues and the base and some of the ships are seized. The Klingon garrison on the planet is defeated.

Klingons threaten to retake the system by force unless the locals surrender. The locals appeal to another major power for support...you can see where things go from here...

In the end, it comes down to winning independence before the ISC arrive. If the system is still disputed (by combat) the ISC will "resolve" the issue. If the locals are firmly in control, the ISC will assure their independence (at least until the Andro's show up), by keeping the Klingons at bay. Historically, of course, they will not survive as an independent.

I'm envisioning several games featuring advanced boarding party combat and ground combat, old national guard ships, a base assault, etc.

Names for SFB races is something I have a notorious problem with. The only race I've created, the Borak, are still only a name (I have never come up with a physiology), and I was later informed by my wife that my new race shares its name with a cleaning agent not unlike Ajax. The ships are cool, but that's a different topic.

I think late GW opens up lots of possibilities on the Klingon border. By Y185, the Klingons are being pushed back to the original borders (or beyond them, IIRC) so even the Hydran border would work. The Kzinti or Federation borders are also possibilities. I'd list my preference as Hydran, Kzinti, and Fed Border, in order.

Some units from J2 might work, as we are talking late GW.

If our locals capture an orbiting base (part of my original idea), the need for a planetary defense "super-drone" is not as necessary. Especially if we give them a fighter production facility to build fighters based both on the planet and at the base. I admit, the idea of a big planetary defense drone is an interesting concept, but building new tech into a scenario/campaign has made them less acceptable in the past (makes it a harder sell to "the Steves").

I guess picking a border and a name is a good start.
Took a look at the Index of Known Planets in CL23. Possible existing systems that might work for the campaign we're talking about:

Klingon-Hydran Border
Landfalk/Bargantine (1114) (Obviously)
Darmot (1416)

Klingon-Kzinti Border
Farlin (1407)
Zursk (1506)
Phyllos (1707)

Klingon-Federation Border
K'brogrh (2216)

I'm not sure what existing background on these systems is out there, but I assume they have shown up in a scenario at some point. Some of these (particularly on the Kzinti border) are pretty strategic locations, which might not work.
The list I made was the only border systems I could find in Klingon space that were listed in the CL article. Making up a new planet (and a hex) would obviously be possible. Using an existing one just makes creating the background a little easier.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:31 pm: Edit

The Klingons and Kzinti have been fighting over thoses three words for centuries. The others are listed with some comments (one or two words) in the last Capt.'s log. There was one independent planet within Fed space that almost allied with the Klingons. There was a scenario based on it, but I don't remember the name.