Support for basic fast loads, I think, is assumed because it's an X1 ability. I remember a lot of us prefered to keep the fast load of X2 the same (in that 12 points was still max for fast loading).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I am a traditionalist.

The more you accentuate 1-turn abilities for the photon, the more you blur the lines between disruptor and photon. That kills racial flavor.

Commander's X2 provides a marvelous example.

Of what not to do.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

How about this compromise:

16-impulse cool-down allows standard/proximity loads. Overloads require 32-impulse cool-down.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Well, I was for a 12 impulse upto 20 points on the previous turn and 16 impulse upto 24 points ( which was the system I used in my playtesting ) turn break penalty.

I'm not sure if allowing lighter fastloads to be "cooked" in an "already hot oven" should be allowed.
I like the idea that Photons are commitment weapons...if you load up the max, then you'll just have to take the cool down penalty irrespective of how light your second volley will be...if you don't like the lack of a back-up shot then don't go for anything larger than a 16 pointer.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

John Trauger, if I were backed into a corner, I'd have to agree with the racial flavor statement...I like 2 turn arming cycle myself for that reason.

Unfortunately, we can't ignore the game effects of the fast load following an alpha strike.

Does this whole issue just boil down to the length of the 'cool-down' following the heavy overload photon volley?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Jeff,

In large part, yes.

I never said I was opposed to a cooldown time. Just 32 impulses seems a little long

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 11:13 pm: Edit

I've been of the opinion that the cool down for critical OL (17+ damage) should be the next turn not 32 impulses.

With 32 impulses I can still strike you with F-OL's the next turn. 17+ OL's are so powerful to begin with that the Feds should have to wait a bit to finnish you off. It should be a tactical decision to go with Crits instead of full OL (16).

The question the Fed Captain asks is "Do I need to deliver the maximum damage now and nothing more for a bit or a lot of damage now and more later?"

It should be a trade off. If you actually choose to fire two spreads over two turns you get a much larger damage output. I support being able to begin arming but no fire.

Photon type	turn A	turn B	total
Crittical OL	20	0	20
Full+F-OL	16	12	28

Also to consider is that more die rolls and possible multiple shield strikes of option 2 make crits more attractive (and so should have the down side of no fire next turn).

What Option 2 have going for it is flexability. This is very important when engaging multiple targets.

Also, there could be a mix of options. A Captain could choose to CritOL just two Photons and FullOL the other two. Leaving those available to Fast Load on turn B.

It is this way that, I think, we give the Feds a new powerful tool but also forces the Fed player to think. It gives a real tactical reason to still use standard OLs.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Then what, exactly, is wrong with having two distinct types of cool down time for the (for lack of better terminology) quality of the overloads?...

say for example, 16 impulses cool down time for photon tubes that had less than 16 point warheads and 32 impulses for OL photons with larger than 16 points...or, (evil grin and a bow to the kiss principle) why not just announce a variable cool down period that relates to the size of the war head? if (as was proposed earlier) you have 20 or 24 point warheads fired, then you must have a matching cool down period directly related to the amount of energy that was launched from the tube?

(I make this distinction because the points of energy used to "power" the photons is different from the damage points potential when the photons hit the target.)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Why would more advanced ships have less advanced heavy weapons?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Loren, you hinted at an interesting balance when using the 16/32 cool-downs after H-OL:

Photon Loads	Turn A	Turn B	Total Yield
H-OL + F-S	20	8	28
S-OL + F-OL	16	12	28

Note: 16-impulse cool-down allows standard/proximity loads. Overloads require 32-impulse cool-down period.

Under the 16/32 compromise the first option's F-S would not be able to fire until 16 impulses have elapsed after the H-OL. The second option's F-OL could fire 8 impulses after the S-OL. Both options use the automatic two-turn bonus, just in opposite turns. Of course the first option is an overload-standard mix and the second an overload-overload mix, so you'll have to deal with ranges/hit rolls accordingly.

BTW Loren, my use of the term "heavy overload" vice your "critical overload" is mosty semantical. "Critical" to me implies a weapon overloaded to the point its firing will result in damage to the launcher (similar to "suicide" overloads for Fusion Beams), whereas "heavy" merely implies a more powerful yield. Also I think your C-OL doesn't allow holding (or does it?) where my H-OL does.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

On the feedback damage and hold cost thing:

Energy	Yield	Feedback	Hold Cost
8.5	17	5	2.25
9	18	5	2.25
9.5	19	6	2.5
10	20	6	2.5

Note: Hold Costs above use fractional accounting. Simply round up to the nearest whole number for Standard Hold Costs (3 in these cases).

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Let me be clear on the cool-down periods:

Standard loading requires the standard (E1.5) 8-impulse delay ("cool down"). Heavy Overloads force a 16-impulse delay before further non-overloads (i.e. F-S/F-P) can be fired, and a 32-impulse delay is forced before any overloads (whether standard, fast, or heavy) can be fired.

Also I screwed up in my 7:25 post when I said that both options use the automatic two-turn bonus. That would not be true. Only the second option would be able to use the automatic bonus during Turn A. The first option does not present an opportunity to use the automatic bonus.

John Trauger, I can see the problem with the 2-hex feedback thing, especially since the feedback damage seems to hike up to 6 points. With the other limitations in place it might not be a problem to keep feedback at 0-1 hexes for H-OL.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:44 pm: Edit

On R2 feedback.

You can skip out on it by firing 16 pointers of less if you really want the better to hit chance.


On double broadside penalty.

Having playtested the situation...ships have so much power that the only way they can enforce the double broadside on the same shield is IF BOTH ships really want it.
The biggest disadvantage of the Photon double broadside extension penalty is that the ship CAN NOT couple Phaser fire with the photon attack without OUT-WAITING the "double broadside period" of the Disruptors and Phasers.

Unlike Plasma; Photons that are lost by enemy Phaser fire and Phasers are lost the instant they are hit; meaning that if you are facing each-other ( it happened in playtest as the X2 took a DDX alpha and used BTTY to stop it and then the DDX used a point of BTTY to tractor the XCA which meant there would be a point-blank alpha on impulse 1 of turn 3 ), through either a downed shield or close enough that the shield boxes won't matter, such that SOME weapons ARE lost in the PERIOD.

The loss of the weapons waiting is the BIGGEST part of the penalty, not the actual length of the period.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:46 pm: Edit

On R2 feedback.

You can skip out on it by firing 16 pointers of less if you really want the better to hit chance.


On double broadside penalty.

Having playtested the situation...ships have so much power that the only way they can enforce the double broadside on the same shield is IF BOTH ships really want it.
The biggest disadvantage of the Photon double broadside extension penalty is that the ship CAN NOT couple Phaser fire with the photon attack without OUT-WAITING the "double broadside period" of the Disruptors and Phasers.

Unlike Plasma; Photons that are lost by enemy Phaser fire and Phasers are lost the instant they are hit; meaning that if you are facing each-other ( it happened in playtest as the X2 took a DDX alpha and used BTTY to stop it and then the DDX used a point of BTTY to tractor the XCA which meant there would be a point-blank alpha on impulse 1 of turn 3 ), through either a downed shield or close enough that the shield boxes won't matter, such that SOME weapons ARE lost in the PERIOD.

The loss of the weapons waiting is the BIGGEST part of the penalty, not the actual length of the period.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Mike Raper, it was implicit (though never stated) that during the cool-down period you can arm photons.

Loren, do I understand you correctly? You're saying that after firing C/H-OL you must wait over the entire next turn before you can fire again? In essence, you have to wait until the beginning of the turn following the turn after you fired the C/H-OL?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Yes, this could be as much a 63 impulses. This is the same as standard photon torps. Please note, however, that you can begin arming another torpedo, you just cannot fire from that tube.

Here is what I don't want to see.

Turn A: Finnish loading a 20 photon (or worse holding one). Fire it on impulse 14.
Turn B: Load a F-OL Photon and hold fire until Impulse 15.

This is a 32 impulse cool down. Two photons in two turns is too powerful, IMO.

The GW photon being truely two turn arming can fire turn A and begin reloading turn B but cannot fire on turn B. Even if the photon is fired on Impulse 1 of turn A.

If the Feds get a Critical OL of over 16 then this tactical limitation should return for those photon.

IMHO.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Loren,

The current X1 Fed can deliver 16-point overloads followed by fastloads in 8 impulses.

Lacking playtest data, I don't see a 32-impulse cooldown as being too powerful. The opponent has 33 impulses to bring a new shield to bear.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

X1 has already blurred the lines between whether the photon is a 1-turn or 2-turn weapon.

For X2, let's try something different. Let's make the photon a 1-turn weapon, and couple that with a twice-a-turn disruptor.

X2 advanced photon:

A photon torpedo that has 4 points of power allocated to it is ready to fire and is a standard load. This can be armed on one turn or spread across two turns.

A standard or overloaded photon which was ready to fire on the previous turn, but was not fired, may be held. A critical overload (8.5-12 power) may not be held.

A photon which was not ready to fire (had less than 4 points of power allocated to it) does not have to pay holding cost, but must continue being armed or must be ejected.

A photon which is being armed must have at least two points of power added to the warhead.

When the torpedo is ready to fire, if it has 4 points allocated to it, it is a standard load. If it has 4.5 to 8 points, it is an overload. If it has 8.5 to 12 points, it is a critical overload.

A photon may be fired on any turn, provided enough energy is allocated to it. (Exception, a photon tube which fired a critical overload on the previous turn may not fire at all on the current turn. It may, however, begin arming).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 06:11 pm: Edit

John T: I know and so could the X2 under my rule. But not starting with a Critical OL (17 point or higher).

Use of a Critical OL Photon (i.e. firing) precludes the use of the firing tube for the following turn.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Loren,

If what you mean is that the photon can't be FIRED, but can still be given energy for the first turn of arming, that's not so bad.

I was thinking GW-tech Fusion Beam cooldown.


Jeff,

Interesting Idea, but I don't personally like the idea. I would like the races to show a recognizable lineage from GW tech. Other people's mileage may vary.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Using 16/32-impulse delays for H-OL, one-turn delay for Cr-OL, and maxing out the crunch options:

Pre-X: S-OL (16) in Turn A, no fire in Turn B; S-OL (16) in Turn C. Total yield 32 in two firings. Range limited to 8 hexes.

X1: S-OL (16) in Turn A, F-OL (12) in Turn B; F-OL (12) in Turn C. Total yield 40 in three firings. Range limited to 8 hexes.

X2#1: Cr-OL (20) on Turn A, no fire on Turn B; Cr-OL (20) on Turn C. Total yield 40 in two firings. Range limited to 8 hexes.

X2#2: H-OL (20) in Turn A, wait 16 impulses F-S (8) in Turn B; F-OL (12) in Turn C. Total yield 40 in three firings. Range limited to 8 hexes in A&C and 12 hexes in B.

X2#3: H-OL (20) in Turn A, wait 32 impulses F-OL (12) in Turn B; F-OL (12) in Turn C. Total yield 44 in three firings. Range limited to 8 hexes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

John T.: Right. The technobabble would be that the tube must be flushed out clean of active plasma residue and that this is a allocated procedure (though is assumed and no record need be kept). Hence, it takes up the next turn. Only Critical OL's cause this.

This tones down the awsome power of such a crunch weapon as a 20 point Photon. The Opponant knows if you fired a crittical OL you cannot fire another torp out that tube for the next turn. The Fed MUST plan for this.

This says "OK Feds you can have the super torp but you have to go back to the two turn arming process to use it".

Still, the Fed can stick with the already awsome power of the X1 processes.

Then again, all races beware. Don't let up on a Fed ship, ever, least you get plastered but good.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

I can go for that.

Heck with that kind of limitation in place, we might be bring back 24-point torps for the Xork era.

Might not, too...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:52 pm: Edit

Good lord John, what ar eyou saying?!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Sorry, Just an old power gamer flashback.

I'm better now.